My company asked me to install WhatsApp once, but I explained to them why I don't use it, and they didn't have a problem with it. Sometimes, all people need to know is 'no' and most of the time they don't even need an explanation.
most informal social groups, parents included, now communicate mainly on whatsapp. You can naturally say no (i did) but then your kid is left out of most social events unless you're actively syncing with other parents every week to be in the loop (which is what i do and it's excruciating).
Whatsapp as a platform is extremely convenient, which is why other people will have a hard time understanding your reluctance to adhere, it's not uncommon to be seen as eccentric.
so again, congratulations on finding a great company, but there are real issues with the general social dependence on a single invasive platform.
Some didn't like it at first, but thankfully most of them now love Telegram. I have a “My way or the highway” kinda attitude when it comes to WhatsApp, it has certainly caused problems once or twice, but I'm very firm on my stance against Facebook apps.
- Privacy controls for each user.
- No hard requirement for a phone number.
- Cloud encryption.
- Open Source clients.
- Telegram's track record.
- Business model not revolving around selling user data.
WhatsApp is a black box and nobody has any good arguments for it other than 'supposed' E2EE that nobody knows anything about. The fact that WhatsApp's T&C forbid you from even reverse engineering the obfuscated binaries and Facebook being the force behind WhatsApp, I'm still surprised that people take their E2EE claim seriously.
It's like me promising you that I'm not looking at you, while I stand facing you, right behind you.
Only if you pay
> - Open Source clients.
Mautrix/WhatsApp
> - Telegram's track record
Which is?
> WhatsApp is a black box and nobody has any good arguments for it other than 'supposed' E2EE that nobody knows anything about.
With Telegram you have a guarantee that it is not E2EE in group chats and single chats if you don't opt into a way worse UX/features.
> - Business model not revolving around selling user data.
True for Whatsapp as well, it's funded by business accounts and perhaps other parts of facebook
I'm sorry, but that's not a good example. It doesn't even count as a legitimate client.
> Which is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_of_Telegram_in_Russia
https://hongkongfp.com/2020/07/05/exclusive-telegram-to-temp...
https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3yavb/russia-blocks-telegra...
https://sensortower.com/blog/hong-kong-protests-app-download...
> With Telegram you have a guarantee that it is not E2EE in group chats and single chats if you don't opt into a way worse UX/features.
You're saying this as if you have a guarantee that WhatsApp's E2EE is 100% correct. At least with Telegram, I know what data the app is collecting, where it's going and how it's being stored on the device.
> True for Whatsapp as well, it's funded by business accounts and perhaps other parts of facebook
Assumption again.
why not? After all the client uses the multi-device API like the official client does
> You're saying this as if you have a guarantee that WhatsApp's E2EE is 100% correct.
I am not saying it like that. I am explicitly saying that with Telegram you have the guarantee that it is not E2EE, while there at least exist the possibility of WhatsApp being E2EE.
> Assumption again.
An observation, not assumption. WhatsApp wants to see money for business accounts: https://business.whatsapp.com/products/platform-pricing
Telegram on the other hand does not compromise on features and user experience and still is able to deliver a system that doesn't disrespect the user data.
I don't have special insight into either WhatsApp or Telegram, but I think given the founders and jurisdictions in which they operate, Telegram deserves at least the same level of scepticism and scrutiny as TikTok.
I don't think Telegram deserves scrutiny. Not after what they've been able to accomplish and follow.
> indeed it was _suggested_ by many of them, both technical and non-technical as preferable to SMS, so I don't think it can be that bad.
It's not bad of course, but it's extremely hard to get WhatsApp users to switch to Signal than Telegram. Both because of missing WhatsApp features in Signal and the additional hoops like PIN.
I'm Just speaking from personal experience. Signal was also my first choice.
Every communication channel deserves scrutiny according to the threat model of a given user.
Telegram is a good compromise. Yeah it's not e2ee.
Signal isn't even a good compromise for most people. I don't know anyone who has stuck with signal in my circles. They've nearly all reverted back their previous service or find a new one.
Personally I treat everything that is sent over networks as public data. So I would never comm anything that needed e2ee via a message service full stop.
That does not sound like a good compromise to me.
I wouldn't use a messaging app to send encrypted content in the first place. But I do want trusted privacy control which telegram provides
Their track record is excellent. Pavel moved away from Russia (and his team of 20 something members too!) only because the Russian government pressured them into giving access to their servers.
WhatsApp is anything but privacy preserving. You have 0 transparency. You can't even prove if the E2EE exists for 100% of the time or just 50% of the time because the binaries are obfuscated. On top of that, their privacy policy and being owned by Facebook says everything one needs to know.
Telegram, IMHO, is the only app that does not compromise on user experience and still provides fantastic privacy control and respects the user data. Sure, it's not E2EE, but no E2EE app can ever do what Telegram is doing at this scale.
In the US, I don't have Telegram and it's been ages since I sent a message on WhatsApp. Everyone I know just uses SMS.
Maybe some won't be, but the path of idealism isn't always the most convenient.
"Sorry kids, you aren't going to your friends parties or playing sports with them because my ideals conflict with your reality" is not a tenable position.
"your mileage may vary"
and bob's your aunty
Yeah, definitely. I'm just responsible for myself. The day I have to be responsible for others, I'll just immigrate to a country where everybody uses Telegram haha.
Telegram is a much better option that does not sell your user data and still has the best privacy options. Where most people like to disagree is the security part, but E2EE is not as important to me as long as my privacy is respected.
Signal is horrible to use and inconvenient for most people but with e2ee.
So it's not FOMO, it's just plain MO.
Missing out on conversations from my extended family, friends (only about 1/4 use Signal and all groups are on WhatsApp), work (the Health Service in Ireland literally runs on WhatsApp), voluntary undertakings (all of which are organised on WhatsApp), organising stuff for the kids (again all on WhatsApp).
So it's a valid fear based on the reality in my social circle and country. Unilaterally moving to Signal means self-imposed isolation.
This part is terrifying: does Ireland not have the equivalent of HSR (UK, in combination with a patchwork of other legislation) or HIPAA?
What do you mean? I live in Ireland and no health professional has ever contacted me via WhatsApp.
You just get added to the relevant groups by your manager (obviously there's also unofficial social groups) and that's where you'll get 90%+ of rosters, clinical updates, service bulletins, etc.
Even after making the effort to keep up with the ones that only wanted to use WhatsApps, through email or regular text message, they couldn't be bothered. I guess I have moved into the point in my life where I prefer the quality of friends who wanted me around for more than being an extra body to fill out their party guest list (and similar).
But as op mentioned
> kids' sports activities and parent groups
Try telling your kids football team coach that you object to Whatsapp and your kids friends' parents that you will not join Facebook for privacy reasons, it's a much harder ask, they might say fine, but you can't expect other people to change their behavior based on your beliefs. No matter how right you are.
"I can't because my Facebook got hacked, and I got banned from Facebook. I tried multiple time to recreate an account but it was banned each time :('
IANAL but if this is on your personal device they can't compel you to do so. Otherwise they need to provide a company issued device.