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Comment by obscurette | Hacker News Reader

I'm a father of teen kids, teacher and educator. I don't think that there is a single reason here. All mentioned things contribute – social media pressure, climate problems, economical crisis etc. But I'd like to add another one – declining quality of education. I see increasing number of teens depressed because they don't have teachers and their education isn't good enough for jobs they'd like to get in future. And at least some of them are certainly right: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32539424

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I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb.

I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local peers (and maybe a few grainy MTV stars over 525 scan lines). And of course the "popular" ones they're comparing to are the most successful, most good-looking, most privileged i.e. the most "perfect" ones (because that's how they got to be the most popular). It's a terrible yardstick for anyone to measure themselves against, let along impressionable young minds.

this 100x. And in the young brain, every single person looks amazing because that's how everyone is posturing constantly. Image filters can even literally make someone better looking. It's basically an arms race to 0 on who can posture the best.

I think social media - which is not so much about media but about performative competition - is just part of the problem.

Reality for kids seems so much more competitive and ruthless in every way. And there are so few resources available to them to help them deal with it.

At the same time opportunities are shrinking and pressure to perform is increasing. It's not enough to be adequate, you have to be outstanding in looks, talent, ability, work ethic, party ethic, lifestyle, income, and education.

But you can't be. Because you're not competing with a small group of relative peers, you're competing with the entire online world.

At the same time there's incoming doom in the form of climate change, Covid mismanagement, outrageous and crippling economic inequality, various wars, and now the threat of AI.

It would be strange if kids weren't getting depressed under these circumstances.

> you're competing with the entire online world.

It's actually even worse than that: you're competing separately in each field, in parallel. But you only see the others in the context of that which they are good at, which is why you see them in that space in the first place.

Ngl I think that's basically it. There's insane competition at basically all swathes of life to become elite at a young age, look at how far elite college acceptance rates have dropped. This has created generations of depressive workaholics and burnouts. It's a lot worse in Asian countries where these cultural forces are stronger.

when my kids were born i was amazed how competitive getting into a good pre-school was. Then i was amazed how competitive getting in to a good elementary school was and now middle school. One year out and we're already discussing strategy for getting in to a good high school.

When I was a kid you went to whatever school was in your neighborhood. On the other hand, when i was a kid my parents had no idea what a good school event meant.

This has been the status quo in Asia for probably at least half a century

It would be interesting to plot the Asian percentage in the OP's area vs the time when OP became aware of this competition. Remember: import enough X and you will become X.

Modern capitalism, basically.

Using the word _capitalism_ here might be too much of an umbrella term. We cannot describe everything that is wrong with the world as capitalism.

It's not about reality for kids, it's for everyone. It's not enough to be a good teacher any more, parents expect you to be on Veritasium level of engagement in every single moment. If services from locksmith is used, LockPickingLawyer is expected all around the world. Every doctor is compared to Dr Varshavski and anything less is not good enough. And the list goes on ...

Veritasium has an entire team and releases 1-3 videos a month. Perhaps the lesson in this is that more should be invested in making education more engaging.

Dr Varshavski can project charisma but i don’t know how well that translates in one on one interactions as his patient. He also doesn’t really seem to be at the top of his field in knowledge and skill, maybe in bedside manners.

" and now the threat of AI."

Probably the icing on the cake for me, looking like no job prospect and potential for serious consequences ranging from mass scale disinformation to extinction.

We need to get our priorities straight as a species.

You get used to it though. It is the same with development. You put much work into something and are proud of the result and then some 12 year old, that grew up in the swamp and was risen by wolves, comes around and has a faster and more elegant solution.

I believe a large amount of the negative effects is that people take themselves too seriously. Every quote on social media is put on the scale and becoming a pariah is basically random. The haunting is mostly done by people with a lack of self-worth and confidence themselves.

But some values also changed for the worse in my opinion. Confidence is valued much more than humility and seen as leadership material. I don't believe it prudent to encourage people that actually do look for strong figures out of fear.

I had recurring nightmares about a malfunctioning nuclear warhead that slowed abnormally and spiraled in a flat spin leaving a smoke/vapor trail as it neared its ultimate detonation height.

The movie Red Dawn was the ultimate manifestation of 80's red hysteria and triumphal American exceptionalism.

~625 scanlines (PAL)? We only had ~480 scan lines with NTSC.

My parents had a roof-mounted VHF/UHF antenna that could be electrically rotated with a dial. Looking something like this

Antenna:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

Channel Master:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WXgAAOSwGJJfoJlz/s-l640.jpg

My grandparents had an analog HBO pirate cheat box with a fixed, directional antenna. I remember watching George Carlin standup specials.

I couldn't remember, googled "NTSC resolution" and it said 525!

> Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local peers

This is so out of touch. You might as well be using the "It's the video games!" excuse of yore.

Teenagers and those in their 20s see what their parents were able to do. They hear what their parents bought their house for, they know about their pensions, they see that their parents could afford raising a child into their teens, they find out that college was actually affordable. They know that's now all out of reach.

Some even see their parents struggling, and know it's going to be much much worse for them.

You all really think this is about influencers?

Huge productivity growth doesn't seem to have translated into commensurate wage growth. Meanwhile housing, higher education, and health care are increasingly unaffordable, as you note, and credentialism makes higher education a requirement for more jobs.

I think you're on target about the discouraging aspects of being visibly worse off than your parents' generation, and I think that millennials have that problem as well.

The situation is likely to get worse as AI-fueled productivity increases are unlikely to improve wages either.

You aren’t wrong for people in their 20s but I don’t think 13 year olds are self harming because they are concerned about mortgages.

Totally agree. Social media built on top of collecting Likes and Followers, causes brain damage not just in kids but in adults too. That architecture has to be dismantled.

But parent comment abv has a point teaching is a big factor here. And teaching in the current environment has become much more complex.

There is endless over stimulation and distraction which ruins environments where learning is possible. And secondly information has exploding. Kids can easily get overwhelmed just looking at a Wikipedia article. Teachers have a very hard job keeping things on track.

20 years ago, when you finished your school day, week, or semester, you could go home, on vacation, etc., and not have any contact with your schoolmates unless you wanted to. Nowadays, you see them and they can interact with you or talk about you 24/7 on social networks. There's no escaping your bully by hiding at home anymore, as you can be publicly bullied on social platforms all the time. This is likely a terrible experience for many young people. Additionally, the constant feeling of inadequacy due to having fewer likes, comments, or friends on your profile compared to the popular kids can be quite disheartening.

My daughter must be the exception to that rule - she actively ignores most messages.

She does, however, uncritically ingest way too much TikTok shit.

I think you are quite correct. The kid/teen social sphere today never sleeps, and never forgets, and there is no escaping it.

> and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb

Has this specter gone away?

I agree that social media is a huge factor, but I suspect other generations dealing with the crises you mentioned had high rates of mental illness as well, but it wasn't tracked, or wasn't tracked the same way, or there were different but equally serious manifestations of it than self-harm and suicide.

"I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb."

All of those issues felt less existential (or at least had very clear points of no return that we managed to avoid going over the brink on), and climate change for many, maybe quite reasonably so, feels like we will be the proverbial boiling frog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

It feels different because of the complexity and scale is no longer definable or predicated on a clear discrete set of objects (e.g. Nuclear powers, key banking systems, a hot war with defined participants) but is by global definition....everything.

It's abstract yet ever present (e.g. all the recent climate weirdness, and the disasters that have followed, both in terms of pure environmental impacts as well as economic and overall regional stability as byproducts thereof) and that becomes much more difficult to "manage"

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it.

I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

Kids today can have two or even three jobs and still not earn enough to pay the rent on a place of their own.

That and there are also fewer jobs available to teens / young adults. The types of jobs that we are making obsolete, whether through automation or regulation, are the types of repetitive, "unskilled" jobs that were previously offered to people just starting out. I'll take a chance on my 16 year-old nephew if I can pay him $5 / hour but if I have to pay him $15 / hour by law I'd rather have someone with more references. I'm also likely to ask that person to take on more responsibility, too, since my overhead just went up and my margins were paper thin to begin with. So now I need someone with additional experience.

Or you get an unskilled immigrant who has his back against the wall. I read an article claiming this is where teen jobs went, not sure how well supported it is.

It is an well-known secret that the largest and most successful farm in my area extensively uses illegal immigrants for labor. They say that citizens are too unreliable and unproductive for them to be profitable.

How do you know they’re illegal? There’s legal immigrants that get bussed in from Mexico to all the corners of the country for seasonal labor. Just cuz they’re immigrants doesn’t mean their illegal. Of course they could be. But I’m not sure I’d trust the rumor mill to know the difference.

They all but admitted to the practice during a tour. I own a farm and was asking lots of questions, and they actively avoided answering some of my questions on the topic. It was clear as day that they do not care about legal immigration status.

The problem stems from the fact that there are not enough legal immigrants to go around. If they limit themselves to legal immigrants, they would not be able to run as large an operation as they do.

Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it.

Sorry, I don't get fulfillment from a job, nor do I base my personality on it. A job is a thing that I have to do to live and do some stuff I like.

That's it, nothing more. I'd never do actual work unless I had to, and I'd never work full time if I didn't have to. I'm never going to be motivated to work harder for a fancy car if I can have a reliable, efficient car. I'd like more space, but it needs not be huge or pretty (though, I'd like to cook and make art).

Making art is fulfilling. I enjoy making food - work means I eat more convenience foods. I don't need to be paid to help folks, either. I can get a sense of accomplishment by doing things that are difficult, from projects to playing games.

I DESPISED my first job (I delivered newspapers), but the independence it afforded me, the ability to buy clothes I like, to invest in a computer of my own and to take my girlfriend on dates was extremely fulfilling.

Productive work, in general, is fulfilling even if you don't happen to like your current "job." It is not the job itself, it is the act of taking action in order to achieve your values. If you value producing art, that is productive work even if it's not your "job" and even if it doesn't pay the bills. You are achieving some value from that. If you are truly fortunate you can find a way to monetize doing work that you would do even if it didn't pay ... but if your job is "just a means to an end", that end is clearly a value and the job is helping you achieve it. It's the achievement of the value that is rewarding.

That's a luxury, isn't it? After all you might find that the only jobs you are able to get actually compromise your values.

My first job was delivering newspapers, too. I didn't despise it, it was easy work, nobody looking over my shoulder, the pay was good enough to put money in my pocket.

Fundamentally, people value what they work to achieve. Things gotten without effort are not valued.

BTW, having a job does look good on a college application.

Our teens problem might be they only value the number of likes on their profile. Note that I won't get any credit to what I'm saying : I have less than 10 followers.

My HN karma is 64,000 which means absolutely nothing.

>base my personality on it

Your words, not gp. A part-time job as a teen helps you navigate and integrate into society. Part-time helps you get out of your bubble and interact with the public, who may be different to your upbringing.

It is immediately clear to me who has had a job as a teen (read: service job), and who has not in my experience. This may be a form of reverse-classism on my part, but learning to sweep a floor and take out the trash for a few months during summer is not going to KILL YOUR DREAMS which seems to be the meme. In fact, you could view it as service to your community!

While I was working 10h/w during high school, I was also making DOOM wads and learning BSP algo in my extremely ample free time.

Also note, that many skills gained in these jobs can directly translate to irl skills. For me, working at a deli taught me how to make food, be on time, measure crap, clean things, interact with people not in my generation, and more!

Maybe you don't get fulfillment, but as a teen with nothing going on it was nice to have some extra money and essentially a playground to learn new skills on someone else's time. It wasn't to live, it was to prime the pump for later in life.

People also tend to die in the year after they retirement. They lost their purpose.

> While I was working 10h/w during high school, I was also making DOOM wads and learning BSP algo in my extremely ample free time.

I don't recall having what I would call "ample" spare time in high school. I recall being at school 8:30 to 4 every day, then a few hours of homework daily and/or exam prep for the endless exams ("don't fail" they said, "or you'll never go to university and your life is ruined forever!"). I wasn't even that social and rarely spent time at friend's houses, let alone partying or clubbing. In fact, I had so little time I didn't explore "computers" as an industry until I finally did get to university and could actually spend 6 hours a day after lectures fiddling with a laptop and this thing called "Python".

In fact probably the one thing that got me going on electronics and computers at university wasn't the lectures and assignments as much as the free time and ability to spend whole days on things, not to mention socialising freely and at length.

With the min-maxing of pre-university CVs that it seems you need to do to get into the Right Schools (TM) and then into university, I'm not sure it has gotten better since then.

In retrospect I should have told them all to do one and spent high school on what I wanted rather than another essay about WWII and the endless, endless coursework that would suck up any spare time ("I've got an hour, I'd better polish the portfolio even more"), and even if I'd gotten the dreaded lower grades and so not gotten into the same university it would probably have been better over all.

When did you go to highschool?

I think homework overload could be part of the problem.

When I went to highschool in the Aughts, UC tracked students rarely had homework, maybe 30 min a day, and school got out at 2:15. If you had a good job, you could get 1 or 2 hours of school credit instead.

Young family members I know now talk about several hours of work per day.

I certainly wouldn't be happy with that

Here's the difference: I was a mediocre student who did zero exam prep. I did homework in the classes I cared about and didn't in the ones I did not in high school. My GPA was mediocre, B-esque, high SATs, only extracurricular was Computer Club. I spent my time reading books and fucking off driving all over creation to go dumpster diving to slake my hunger for computer parts.

I did not have a "portfolio". I had a bunch of weak programming experience from books I checked out from the library and a compiler I stole from my high school because I wanted to program so badly. (1998~, open source compilers existed but to my eyes I wanted Borland Turbo C++) Yea that's right I copied that floppy! :D Imagine a time when you had to BUY compilers!!

I wrote an entrance essay that I used for all four of my college applications about how computer games were the next huge entertainment media, replacing movies. I didn't min max anything because I didn't care / had no idea / was stupid. I was accepted at all of them, Case Western Reserve, Drexel, Rutgers, Rowan. I went to a non-ivy competitive engineering school in my area, which I'm repeatedly discovering was a very good computer science program.

I went on to a fruitful research career for 10y, and now industry.

Maybe I'm telling on myself that somehow I have incredible luck or privilege, since compared to you I sound like a failure. I am the first person to go to college in my family, and worked while I was in college as well as paid internship at a research university.

The only skill I had was doing the thing directly in front of me and keeping my eyes on the next thing. The jobs I had were nothing special: a dogsbody at a deli, delivering newspapers, Toys R Us, Staples, Dominos Pizza.

Every job taught me something different: - something can go wrong and it not be your fault - if you have time to lean you have time to clean - some jobs are just fighting entropy, and that's normal (note: this is in service of bigger goals, every time) - everyone is happy to see the pizza guy

I'm not sure how old you are, I'm ~40, so it is entirely possible we have different eras. Maybe it's possible to over optimize, also maybe I'm too old for this discussion. Anecdotes aren't data.

In short, if you've never cleaned a toilet that isn't yours, it is less likely I will trust you.

> playing games

I long ago lost all interest in playing games. The problem with them is nothing is accomplished. Play pinball and get a number on the display. Play Doom and - nothing. Although I invented the Empire game, most of my pleasure in it was developing it.

> Although I invented the Empire game, most of my pleasure in it was developing it.

Seems normal enough to me. I found a plateau in playing games, so switched to modding and making them, even as a teen. Everyone has different thresholds and can find joy wherever it suits them.

It used to be good, but my guess is a modern kid, particularly a middle class one, doesn't get as much out of it. Minimum wage has stagnated, but also people these days have their eyes on internships that will secure a career. There's simply no point in pursuing burger-flipping if you can't find a way to hang around a law firm or a hedge fund, and those firms won't care at all that you worked hard in a menial job.

When I was a kid there was never a time when I could pay for everything. The first time that happened was an internship I got during college, and then my first job right after.

Nobody pays minimum wage anymore, at least not if you want to hire anyone.

$12/hr is the absolute lowest I've heard of in the past year or two.

Employers do value experience at menial jobs, at least for their own entry level positions. Any work experience is better than none.

$12/hr is at or under the minimum wage in 19 of 54 US jurisdictions (50 states + DC, VI, PR, CNMI), so depending on where you are, that’s…not that significant.

Where I live minimum wage is the federal minimum of $7.25/hr. Major chain fast-food jobs are starting at about $14/hr here, so nearly double.

What high school kids are interning at hedge funds? Jobs like life guarding, painting, tradesman’s gopher, fast food, etc are still great jobs for kids to learn a work ethic and make some cash. Trying to kick start a career in high school is beyond silly for most kids.

We had high schoolers in a fund I worked at. Helps that her dad knew the boss. No real use of course, but she could put it on her CV.

That’s clearly far outside the norm though. Normal high school kids aren’t aspiring to (or would even be allowed to) be interns at places like that outside of really unique situations.

Yes and thus the collapse in teen employment. No point in working if you don't find that unicorn internship. Flipping burgers is just not worth it, you may as well do exam practice or just have free time.

Also the freedom a job gives a young person will be unlike anything they've experienced up to that point. Prior to a teen's first job their experience of the world outside their home (i.e. school) is highly regimented, with little opportunity to just be a normal human being around other humans. A job provides that outlet.

I wonder about the timing of these social changes. My impression was that the tradition of high school students having jobs started to fade away in the 1990s.

I have potentially a bazillion questions:

0. How do kids socialize without devices these days?

1a-b. Do they meet new people like them and/or unlike them?

2. Do they go outside and explore the world nearby?

3a-b. Do they get in the same or different kinds of trouble as past generations of kids?

4a-d. What are the fundamental social values they share that differ from 1-4 generations ago?

5a-c. Do they have as much curiosity, work ethic, or resiliency to setbacks?

Here's my neon fuchsia fanny-pack, old personitis for reference:

When I was a kid, I had to wake up at 5:45 am to get ready to walk 1.3 mi (2 km) to a school bus stop when there was a perfectly good school 0.25 mi away. (Supposedly, I was denied a slot due to race-integration busing but I attribute it to paranoid parents rationalizing their lack of resolve.) The bus ride was 90 minutes each way for 3 hours total, depending on traffic. It was a magnet school where there were many kids from broken homes, abuse, poverty, undocumented parents hanging on, and situations adjacent to drug gangs. The non-IEP classroom material was too slow for me and I was often bored. The turnover of teachers was about 50%/year. Many substitute teachers. There were bullies, girls who behaved in age-inappropriate manners, carved graffiti-encased desks, and mountains of scantrons and dittos (spirit duplicator). No school uniforms, but gang colors and teen pregnancy were omnipresent concerns. Hardcover textbooks were worn to where bindings had saggy wrinkles. No computers and no cell phones.

I can answer a some those. Have family members who are teachers, friends who work with youth, etc and this whole thing comes up a lot.

I've used your numbering system to organize answers.

2. Less than previous generations.

There's simply far less places that will let kids just hang out.

Until a certain age its likely CPS will be called and police will be involved if your kids are out exploring, and after that age said kids hanging out is deemed antisocial and undesirable... So private security or the police hassle them.

3a-b: some the same, some different. Underage drinking/smoking/fucking is down, illicit drug use is down somewhat, but smoking's been replaced by vapes, and the drugs are different - often pharmaceuticals (real or counterfeit) such as xanax, etc.

Actual antisocial behavior is way down, but perceived antisocial behavior is up. Behaviours that previously were deemed largely benign (kids hanging out) are deemed unwanted. As per answer 2.

4a-d: the kids tend to be significantly more "tolerant" than previous generations. Make of that what you will.

5a-c: yes? They are still curious as all fuck, but work ethic is a funny animal.

Most traditional avenues for teenagers to "work" (outside of academics) are being closed off due to labour rules, liability, etc.

So a lot of younger people try make money online, have some kind of hustle. This ranges across the board of legality, morality, etc. Be it flipping clothes on Depop, dubious schemes involving dropshipping or selling knockoff designer gear online, selling artwork/crafts, trying to become an influencer/streamer/whatever... There's massive pressure to try monetize any hobby.

Resilience? Its teenagers. Some are hard as nails, some are drips.

> ...declining quality of education.

I'd like to add some nuance to this. While student performance seems to be clearly declining (at least at the college level, which I'm familiar with), I don't know how well we can distinguish the contributions of poor teaching and poor student preparedness.

I'll give a concrete example from South Korea. For several years, the English proficiency of incoming university students was so high, there was serious talk of closing English language programs as no longer needed. Within the last few years though, student ability levels have plummeted, requiring drastic dumbing-down of the curriculum at the school where I work. I know many Korean primary, secondary, and college teachers, and I don't think the decline in student achievement is due to their slacking off. It seems to be due to something going on in society outside the schools.

Yeah, The US education system seems to have more money than most countries, but we're still 37th in the world for in Math last I checked.

Whatever is happening in public schools, you'd do well to increase your child's odds by putting them into something else if you can afford it.

Private school, tutoring, homeschooling, college (dual-enrollment), etc..

Middle class and above kids still do as well in math in public schools as they do in private schools. The problem is that students from more disadvantaged backgrounds don't do as well, and its not like they can afford private schools anyways.

I grew up poor, it has nothing to do with private school to me at all, it's all about struggling parents still convinced their kids to do their best, and put education first as a family group effort.

most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries, plus our school provides free lunch, many programs will waive fees if you're economically disadvantaged, etc. It's not as good as those well-off families but it's really good enough for you to do fine in education.

I saw so many economically challenged kids carrying new iphones, dressed well, yet not really into learning at schools, it's certainly not just an economic problem.

> most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries

Education wise, middle class in a developing or under developed country will still beat poor in a developed country even if the latter have more money than the former. Culture has a lot to do with it, a lot has to do with the latter's parents not teaching current parents the same thing that the former's were taught. Home situation is much of the problem, and you can't just throw money at the problem, unfortunately.

European countries might do a better job at this by either (a) having less poor people (immigrants) or (b) putting in more resources to ensure that these kids get more support at home and in school to make up for their disadvantage. But often, you'll find in European countries that they have the same problems with kids from disadvantaged background being behind middle class kids, they just work at solving the problem better than we do in the states.

I also observed there are many economically disadvantaged parents driving their kids to charter schools for better education, that made a huge difference, as their home campus is filled with lots of students that are not that into education. point is family might be the key for success, more than private-school or giving-more-money,etc.

As a longtime educator, I see a lot of experienced teachers leaving. In fact, I'm leaving this year, though I'm unsure if it's permanent.

It's a mixture of reasons, from low pay to high demands, but I think a large part is a lack of respect from students, parents and admin. Teachers have been stripped of most of their power to do anything about it. The last year I taught public school a student was verbally abusing others and threatening them in class and I couldn't get him removed. It ruined the class and scared other students, but because he had documented issues they said they couldn't do anything.

I teach in overseas private schools now, and the kids are fantastic and the pay is decent, but the job has an increasing amount of non-teaching related stuff which detracts from the what matters, the kids. Also, the syllabus for CS is so outdated, and I find myself apologizing to the kids since I need to to teach it to them for their exams. I teach around the syllabus as best I can, but you still need to get results.

TLDR: Experienced teachers leaving, lack of autonomy, curriculum suck

One of the most important things we can teach kids today is how to teach themselves. I wouldn't have graduated college over a decade ago without Wikipedia and there are far better resources now.

Did that start in 2010, across several countries?

Out of those i m trying to understand climate problems. They dont affect daily life in a visible way. Climate anxiety however has become a thing because of too much media fixation around it. It s so prevalent that some psychologists think it should be classified as a disease

Not sure it's about education. Ladders seem pulled higher and sending your resume to the ether and the dog and pony show that is interviewing...

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