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Comment by stncls | Hacker News Reader

Periodic reminder: if you plan on using Linux, before buying any laptop, always check the Arch Linux wiki first.

I don't even run Arch, but in my experience, the Arch wikis for hardware support are amazing: complete, accurate, and to the point. For laptops, they start with a small table indicating what works and what does not. Then concise but precise explanations of the pain points. And whenever a fix exists, it is explained in a way that will make it work not only on Arch, but often also on other distros.

Take this very laptop for example, the X1 Carbon Gen10. The Arch wiki entry [1] has all the information found in the OP, but it cuts right to the point without any fluff. And then it adds technical explanations and workarounds.

[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...

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The only place I have found better documentation is the Gentoo wiki: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page

The Gentoo wiki illustrates to me that Linux is about constructive solutions, not crowd sourced testing. If I have a Windows problem, I Google for the magic incantation that was inferred by a thousand desperate disparate voices. If I have a Linux problem, I learn about the components I am using, and how they are intended to behave and fit together.

Another periodic reminder: Whenever you buy a new laptop don't just nuke the Windows install that comes out of the box and go directly to installing Linux, but boot into it first and let Windows Update install all firmware updates as those updates might not be available under Linux.

Linux supports firmware updates via fwupd. It's integrated into most distros.

Read my comment again please. Slowly and carefully. Especially this part:

>those updates might not be available under Linux

Just because FWUPD exists, doesn't mean that FWUPD has updates for all laptops or HW devices in your laptop. All HW manufacturers ship Windows drivers and FW updates for Windows, but not all push their updates to fwupd as well. That's why you should use Windows to update everything first especially if you don't know if your devices are supported by fwupd.

Why would you buy a laptop that you cannot install updates on without jumping though hoops?

> Why would you buy a laptop that you cannot install updates on without jumping though hoops?

Maybe you're buying used and you can get a great deal that just has that one drawback.

That's fair. Also, not everyone can pay the premiums due to having a much smaller market either, I suppose.

Too bad many that can don't. There's no way for the little players to achieve economies of scale of the big players if folks keep buying Windows hardware from the big players.

No idea but people in fact do that.

Simple, because for running Linux there are not that many options. And the X1 Carbon is very nice hardware.

Also, with that mentality, we would never extend Linux support to new hardware.

> And the X1 Carbon is very nice hardware.

It doesn't sound as good as a fully supported option. It sounds a lot like commodity Windows hardware.

> Also, with that mentality, we would never extend Linux support to new hardware.

No, hobbyists will still do it (see e.g. Asahi)

If folks keep giving their money to Windows hardware companies instead of Linux ones, they should not be surprised if the range if Linux-supporting hardware remains smaller. Like if you could just slap OSX on some random Windows PC M1 and such would never have come about.

We actually have options as Linux users these days. It's a shame folks insist on wasting the opportunity.

The X1 carbon does have fwupdates on Linux, no need for Windows

Because you already have a laptop? Or they got a laptop from someone like family or an employer?

And unless you're a GNU/Nerd, most people have better uses for their time than scouring through the web to find out if fwupd works for the HW when they go shopping for a new laptop. Most normal people just buy a laptop that fits them best and that's it.

After all, why would they need to do any extra research for this? Isn't the whole internet and HN preaching that the year of the Linux is here and that it "just works(TM)"? Maybe not without caveats.

> Maybe not watthout caveats.

If you keep buying Windows hardware and slapping Linux on it, you'll have to be the systems integration team all by yourself. Without documentation of the hardware, or support.

It's a mug's game. Don't play it. Buy Linux hardware, with support.

If Linux only works on Linux only hardware, then Linux enthusiasts should stop preaching to the Average Joes that it's the year of the Linux and everyone can easily switch from Windows to Linux and everything "just works(TM)", if that isn't completely true, or just be openly honest about the caveats from the start, as most people switching to Linux aren't going to buy new machines just for Linux, but will most likely seek to reuses existing ones they have.

And many people in many markets don't have easy access to buying linux specific laptops. A HP, Dell or Lenovo is much easier to find around the world, and most importantly, easier to get service for it when it breaks versus boutique Linux laptop makers like Slimbook, System76, Framework, etc.

I don't think most enthusiasts actually believe slapping Linux on any random piece of Windows hardware will Just Work 100%. Maybe 90%, but there are lots of edge cases. Modern hardware is extremely complicated, and there will be lots of random glitches unless you either do lots of homework and/or are extremely lucky.

Or you buy Linux hardware with support.

Perhaps you're thinking of responses to the perennial genre of, "I slapped Linux on my Windows box, and it was terrible, so Linux sucks!" posts?

Both you and GP are right, depending on the laptop manufacturer.

Like you, I personally nuke Windows immediately and run fwupd from Linux... but then... I'm lucky I get to choose my own laptops. And I only buy those whose manufacturers support fwupd. It's a growing number, but I don't think it's a majority...? I'm not sure, I would be happy if anyone had hard data here.

I find the pragmatic, if ideologically galling, choice is to leave Windows around permanently, shrinking its partition as small as it will go. This preserves the ability to run any vendor-supplied utilities in perpetuity, as well as leaving the door open to reliably run some Windows software in a life-or-death situation.

I've had Windows 10 run certain (major?) updates that fubar the boot record or something because they ruin my dual-boot Linux install.

This has been my experience as well.

Automatically, on boot? That's rather naughty. I've never encountered this but I boot into Windows with a frequency approaching "never", and I would certainly never intentionally permit it to install updates. I would be so livid if it wrecked my boot sequence without user interaction.

If you use the windows boot record as the parent boot instead of grub you can mostly get around this issue. It’s what I did on my gaming rig. I mostly use that as a development machine these days, but occasionally boot into windows for games.

> let Windows Update install all firmware updates

I did in fact say that in the article. (I wrote the story at the top of this post.)

I know mate, I wasn't trying to steal your thunder. I was happy to finally see someone else cover this important first step of using Windows to get your FW updated so that you ensure smooth Linux experience after install, and wanted to emphasize, from personal experience, how important this step is to having a good linux experience after install.

OK, fair enough. You're right, it is important, and no, people don't talk about it as often as it deserves.

This also holds true for pesky things like displaylink, docs, USB hubs that may need a firmware update to resolve issues with linux. Also I think some Lenovo laptops need an update to Intel ME, which for a long time and depending on your hw was only packaged as a Windows .exe

I used a bootable windows iso thingy the last time this was an issue for me.

This one: https://archive.org/details/win-7-pe

I tell friends to do a bit of digging which includes looking at what's supported but also being keen to support vendors, and the models they sell, that are supported under LVFS [0]. Booting Windows, for anything, if Linux is your daily driver is a PitA. Otherwise there's always Rufus [1] and booting into a DoS environment for firmware updates (if supported) and I believe there's still potentially ways to get "Windows to Go" working still with older Windows versions.

[0] https://fwupd.org/ [1] http://rufus.ie/

Nope, Windows goes during partitioning, I'm not going to boot into that stuff even once. If I bought the laptop it's because I did my research and I am confident that I will be able to fully manage it from Linux.

I don't get what you were trying to add here besides things that have already bee said.

If you did your research and made sure to buy linux supported hardware, then good for you mate, you're free to do whatever you want now, but for us with less linux friendly hardware or unknown to the user, my point still stands, you should first update everything under windows (including usb-c/thunderbolt docking station FW) to ensure a good linux experience later.

I keep the windoze partition on my thinkpad if nothing else to update the thunderbolt 4 dock firmware, as the TB3 dock just finally got fwupd support within the last few days and no telling if/when the TB4 will. It's an important part of my use, and was and is quite quirky under linux since I got it that has improved with firmware updates. I just resize it down to like 100gb that windoze can keep itself and the lenovo hardware updated when needed with their eazy button app native to their build, and build anything linux after.

If I hadn't booted my laptop into Windows (once, to updated the bios), Linux wouldn't have had working audio. And updating the bus from Linux can be a massive pain in the ass, depending on the vendor.

One nice thing about Lenovo's business line is they fully support LVFS for easy firmware updates via Linux. Here's their system updates for the X1 Carbon g10 for example: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/com.lenovo.ThinkPadN3AETXXW.f...

System76 supports LVFS and Framework has started using it for its latest beta firmware updates. (for a full list of vendors: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/ )

Oh definitely! This is a top tip!

An alternative is to create a Windows to Go flash key, and perform periodic updates from there.

I'm always surprised on r/linuxhardware (another good resource) the number of people that ask questions without doing basic searches online. I'd definitely second the Arch and Gentoo Wikis as excellent community maintained resources. Also:

* https://linux-hardware.org/ - this is where uploaded `hw-probe` results are collected and shared. It's easy to search for your exact model #/SKU and get a very detailed compatibility list, eg: https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=6677ca6be8

* Reddit is actually one of the best general sources for people talking about Linux compatibility issues, especially as most laptop OEMs don't have dedicated Linux support forums (only Framework and Lenovo do, AFAIK), so searching for "[model] linux report/review/compatibility/issues reddit" is usually a good sanity check as well.

* Oftentimes doing a search for the exact model and adding "linux bug" is the best way to get any bug reports that are in kernel, distro, or package trackers.

* IMO Notebookcheck is the best general/objective review site for laptops. While there are usually some more in-depth reviews that might give additional color on a laptop, the Notebookcheck reviews cover most of the important points with some very objective, and more importantly, standardized tests, whose results can be compared against their gigantic database of other reviews. Important things like screen quality (brightness, color gamut, PWM flicker), speaker quality (I find the percentile vs other laptops most useful there), and power usage (most importantly IMO, their WiFi v1.3 rundown test). While it's not the easiest to link to, they allow you to add comparisons to arbitrary laptop models for any of their numerical results. It's fantastic.

* Lastly, for Linux laptop compatibility in particular, I've found there a lot of documents in single developer/user's wikis, or as Github repos/gists writing up their experiences. I've done two of them myself since I found the other ones I've found to be so useful: https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops

> I'm always surprised on r/linuxhardware (another good resource) the number of people that ask questions without doing basic searches online.

This is a problem with reddit in general. For example, some variation of "how do I reduce System Data in iOS" has been asked 37,000 times. All one has to do is search. But redditors don't search.

Thank you so much for the reminder.

I actually plan on buying a X1 Carbon Gen10 in the following weeks, and use Arch as my daily driver, and yet I didn't think of checking the (honestly amazing) ArchWiki.

I have the X1 Carbon Gen9 and I've used Arch as my daily driver for over 15 years I think it is now. Just want to mention in case it piqued your interest that I recently moved from Arch to NixOS on my X1C9 to help bake my whole system into a set of functional configs. It's particularly nice that I was able to functionally describe my whole system including packages, quirks, patches, configs (system + dotfiles) in a reproducible way.

Also I think you'll love the machine - it's certainly my favorite Linux laptop.

Thanks for the advice, I've just been able to resolve the trackpad issue on my XPS 9510 that's been driving me mad for over 1 year.

Or, better, buy a computer with Linux preinstalled and with support. Then, of there's a problem, you can support and get it sorted.

Honestly - As a long time user I think you're much better off checking the Arch wiki first.

It will reflect the reality of the situation for that specific set of hardware. The vendor is going to give you a sales pitch.

And I say this as someone who has gone out of my way to buy hardware from vendors that officially support linux (Dell & Lenovo).

In many cases - the most official support you'll get is "This is a known issue, we are working on it."

can you call Dell and Lenovo and expect support as a Linux user? Or do you still have to put Windows back on before they give you the time of day?

Yes, as long as you've purchased a machine that they offer with a linux distro pre-installed, or that they've certified (ex: Dell only ships Ubuntu but will certify hardware for Redhat compatibility).

Ex: https://www.dell.com/en-us/lp/linux-systems

I used an XPS 13 developer edition for quite a while. Great little machine, but a couple of known issues around wifi/bluetooth and the fingerprint reader. Fixable, and Dell actually did provide drivers in a deb for Ubuntu, but it took them a little while.

But generally speaking, yes you can call - they will provide resources and point you at fixes they've implemented, but it's still a bit of a grab bag. I would definitely not buy a linux machine from them without checking the Arch wiki first.

Ex: The current developer machine shipping from Dells link is here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dell_XPS_13_Plus_(9320)

Mostly fine across the board - some known issues with very recent kernel versions, and some problems with the webcam. Dell fixed the webcam issues in their default Ubuntu release, but it requires manual fixing on other distros.

The problem with this is that set of laptops is so small and restrictive. It's mostly just Clevo rebadges which feel kinda cheap and have design choices that are becoming outdated like 16:9 screens and a couple of models from Dell and HP.

My general rules of thumb for selecting laptops for linux:

- Avoid Realtek wherever possible, usually in favor of Intel. Even though Realtek hardware usually technically works on Linux, it's often in a reduced or buggy capacity.

- Avoid Nvidia. This might change soon now that Nvidia is finally being a bit more open with driver development, but for now Nvidia cards are still likely cause of unnecessary pain.

- If possible, avoid discrete GPUs. AMD cards are more likely to be well-behaved than Nvidia cards but often the most trouble-free experience is with nothing but an iGPU. This is really only practical for users who use laptops for their portability and have a desktop for where raw power is necessary.

> The problem with this is that set of laptops is so small and restrictive.

I disagree on this and the supposed Clevo point. Got a source for "just a Clevo" rebadge?

Also, support and firmware.

Many of the names that come to mind when mentioning Linux-native laptops like system76 and Tuxedo Computers use Clevo as their ODM. They make some tweaks to the hardware and might change the firmware, but at the end of the day, they're still Clevo complete with aforementioned warts (like 16:9 screens and questionable build quality). There are exceptions like Starlabs Systems and Purism, but they're the exception and not the norm.

All vendors use an ODM. That doesn't mean that buying from the ODM directly will get you the same experience as buying from them. The vendor cam work with the ODM to customize hardware and firmware, so "rebadge" is a really poor way of describing it.

But yes, if you want a non-Clevo ODM there aren't as many options.

Note, though, that buying from Windows vendors will make the situation worse, not better.

Yes, but in the case of Linux laptop companies using Clevo it’s much closer to a rebadge. They’re all built around the same off-the-shelf designs, which means they share flaws in common, which was my whole point: there’s a serious lack of choice in Linux laptops if those quirks of Clevo designs are dealbreakers for you.

> The vendor cam work with the ODM to customize hardware and firmware, so "rebadge" is a really poor way of describing it

It's the best way to describe it: they change maybe the wifi card, certainly the logo, tweak a few bios defaults, and for sure you a premium for that, but that's all they can do, and nothing you couldn't do yourself (except the logo, unless you like stickers lol)

> Note, though, that buying from Windows vendors will make the situation worse, not better.

In term of having more rebadging? Yes, there will be more parasites taking advantage of people who want to buy the right to have someone to blame for their laptop not working correctly on Linux.

But it terms on Linux support, it will not change anything: Lenovo still offers the best support, with other companies except Framework limited by their dependance on Clevo

It might even make things worse, by leading those who've been taken advantage of by unscrupulous companies that Linux just doesn't work well on laptops.

More important, for those wanting the best results, it will be counter productive: they will certainly have someone to blame (they paid for that "right" after all) but they could have instead taken the problem in their own hands and made their hardware work, with the help of resources like archwiki.

It's not the ideal solution, but I think Framework will need another 5 to 10 years to be really competitive to Lenovo. In the meantime, I would be happy to support them or help them, but now that I've decided 2023 is my year of Linux on the desktop, it'll have to be on a Lenovo.

> It's the best way to describe it: they change maybe the wifi card, certainly the logo, tweak a few bios defaults, and for sure you a premium for that, but that's all they can do

Nope. That's 100% false.

https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1322954630448427011

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414

I don't get why Lenovos are supposedly so great. The one I had at work was _terrible_, hands down the worst Linux experience I've ever had. And I put Linux on a bunch of Windows boxen back when we had no choices in the matter.

> I don't get why Lenovos are supposedly so great. The one I had at work was _terrible_, hands down the worst Linux experience I've ever had.

You only had one? How can you pretend to know a brand with 1 model?

FYI, of the modern thinkpads, only those from the X1 series are good.

On the others series, too many corners have been cut. At work, you're unlikely to have gotten a X1, so I'm not surprised about your experience.

If you are curious and want to try, get a X1, even an old one from ebay. It can be great after some minor configuration, and I'd be happy to help: my 2 lenovos (a hold on windows and linux, a nano just on linux) are both perfectly stable, consume less than 5% of battery per 10h of sleep, and resumes perfectly. I don't know any better computer to run Linux, or I would have gotten it already.

TBH the nano is so great that I've moved from Windows to Linux on the desk(lap)top in 2023 :)

> That's 100% false.

Look at the comments from your own link, from actual users of Clevos who are trying to politely say it's not as good as claimed. There's a lot of astroturfing from linux related brands on sites like HN.

And FYI a tweaked fan curve is nothing to brag about, when they have components not even working like the fingerprint reader.

Now if you are curious, invest a few hunders in a used thinkpad and see for yourself.

> You only had one? How can you pretend to know a brand with 1 model?

Because it is also a common sentiment I've heard from others, on X1s. But also because it was my experience

> FYI, of the modern thinkpads, only those from the X1 series are good.

I'm sure if you research thoroughly and are lucky it xan work. I'd rather pay fir a company that fully backs Linux on the hardware.

> TBH the nano is so great that I've moved from Windows to Linux on the desk(lap)top in 2023 :)

I'm glad you did, welcome! (I've been running Linux since the 90s. :) I'm glad it's working for you, but I'd suggest it's a poor strategy even if it's perhaps an acceptable tactic.

> Look at the comments from your own link, from actual users of Clevos who are trying to politely say it's not as good as claimed.

Yes, because Clevos are not System76? That's rather my point. They're the people who bought Clevos and discovered the hard way that they're different in very salient ways.

> There's a lot of astroturfing from linux related brands on sites like HN.

Astroturfing? I've talked woth these folks and have used their hardware since the late to mid-aughts. Saying they're contradicting their claims, and they're saying up front they work for System76.

It's like claiming a RedHat dev is astroturfing when they say how the internals of the distro work. (And I'm highly sceptical of them having the disposable cash to splash out to hire astroturfers!)

> tweaked fan curve is nothing to brag about, when they have components not even working like the fingerprint reader.

It's not just a tweaked fan curve. The firmwares are entirely different.

The reply about the fingerprint reader sounds reasonable. They don't have nearly the leverage of Dell, Lenovo, or Apple to get the ODM to do what they want. This sounds reasonable (and not my own experience.) They're a small shop, in no small part because people keep showing Linux on Windows computers.

> Now if you are curious, invest a few hunders in a used thinkpad and see for yourself.

I could, or I could keep buying hardware that is for Linux, with support. I think my time is worth it.

> It's not just a tweaked fan curve. The firmwares are entirely different.

Unless they are featuring coreboot, they just tweaked options in say the Insyde bios, so no, not entirely different.

> I could, or I could keep buying hardware that is for Linux, with support. I think my time is worth it.

Personally, I prefer quality.

Should you ever change your mind, get in touch, I'm preparing a sick arch image with absolutely perfect hardware support on wayland!

> Unless they are featuring coreboot, they just tweaked options in say the Insyde bios, so no, not entirely different.

What about a fully Free CoreBoot firmware and EC?

https://github.com/system76/firmware-open https://github.com/system76/ec

> Personally, I prefer quality.

Me too! It's why I don't waste time with hostile hardware.

I'm also glad I can rely on the original, preinstalled Pop! or Ubuntu distro instead of having to trust some stranger's spin of Arch to get full hardware support, or do it all myself.

> What about a fully Free CoreBoot firmware and EC?

You had me curious, now you have me interested.

I will investigate the system76. I need something with ECC, ideally with a AMD Zen3 too.

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