How to Polis, 101, Part IIb: Archons | Hacker News Reader

How to Polis, 101, Part IIb: Archons

acoup.blog

44 pointsgostsamo19 comments

David Graeber argued that 21st century democracy is not directly based on any ancient model, including any Greek one. You'll notice how the Greeks didn't have any permanent civil service*. You'll notice how they kept slaves. You'll also notice how they didn't have much resembling our notion of civil liberties, including free speech: Otherwise, on what grounds was Socrates murdered?

* - We might partially have borrowed this from China.

This sounds like an incredibly obvious observation?

Modern liberal democracy comes from the revolutions in the 17th and 18th centuries. Greek poleis were at most an inspiration, like the ancient Olympics for the modern ones.

Fair. He actually had the more radical idea that "Western" democracy owes a lot to pre-Columbus America.

I don't recall the source, but I'm pretty sure some of my k-12 civics courses mentioned something along the lines of benjamin franklin borrowing some concepts from indigenous civil structures.

> This sounds like an incredibly obvious observation?

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the US who think American liberal ideals are, in some more-or-less abstract manner, descended from ancient Greece or ancient Rome. Maybe it's our neoclassical state buildings. I'm not sure.

> * - We might partially have borrowed this from China.

The British deliberately sinofied their civil service starting in the very early 19th century, and the US didn't properly get a civil service system until late in that century, so I'd be pretty surprised if that's not the case (at least, second-hand, by way of observing and imitating Great Britain)

As for the ancients, I'd buy that our connection to either Athens or the Roman Republic is largely superficial and was mostly upper-class ego-stroking affectation, but I definitely think it leans much heavier toward the latter than the former. Our symbols like the fasces and eagle, Washington's famous and surely-self-conscious imitation of Cincinnatus, that kind of thing.

The United States had legal chattel slavery for the first century of its existence, so that point is moot.

Of course your overall point is correct.

I found this article a bit dry compared to his usual writing. What do you find interesting about it?

I don't know how you intended for your comment to sound, but on my side it looks like that you demand from me to explain myself.

Ignoring that, the article is yet another window in to the past. You can enjoy it as an informational piece. Or if you want to apply some of its lessons to the present day, you can compare it with some of the contemporary attempts at building decentralized organizations. If none of these options appeal to you nor any other, just skip it, HN is not lacking on other content.

I asked because I read it earlier and I'm actually curious what other people liked about it. Maybe I missed something? Someone shared it and other people upvoted it.

Well, I shared it, so the "you" felt a bit personal. :)

Standard conversation prompt. I wouldn't overthink it.

Explaining why you submitted something is not much to ask and not something that the submitter has any right to be offended by.

Historia Civilis has a YouTube series on the constitutions of Athens and Sparta that describe their protodemocratic and democratic mechanisms.

More broadly, I've always found two classes sorely missing from our required public education diet: basics of law, and the history of republics.

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