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Comment by daevout | Hacker News Reader

The problem is that children, rather than free farm labor, are now too expensive, while the wages on which the majority of people depend, are too unpredictable and intermittent for the kind of long term involvement 2.1+ children represent.

If countries want to solve their fertility problem, they can waste their time with various tricks and "incentives" to postpone what they'll eventually have to do for geopolitical reasons alone, which is to go to war with their own business community.

Capital controls, tarrifs, sector bargaining -- the exploding heads of think tank libertarians guide the way like lit torches through a swampy marsh.

If wage earners can be assured that they are taken care of irrespective of the spasms of the global market, they can have children. Otherwise they will persist in their state of soft rebellion, which is marked by low fertility and low laber market participation, among others.

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Is that really all to it? Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave.

There is something else going on, I feel a kind of ambiant negativity induced by the global warming news, which seem to block people to have kids.

>Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave.

Even for those stable engineers, it's hard to afford a home. Also you start earning money late at 25, because you needed those pesky degrees. Now you are 30, have a modicum of money, and want to live a little first. So you have fun until 35. Now you're looking for a life partner, you find them at 40. But you need to be financially stable, so you save up for a downpayment, you wait a few years until 45 to start a family.

You now notice you can't have kids because you're too old. The end.

Studying AND "living a little" at the same time isn't that hard with all the exchange programs EU universities provide. Traveling within Europe is also very cheap. It's mainly just an excuse for people who don't want children that much, which is now more common due to cultural changes as well.

Expensive housing on the other hand is a real problem. Requiring a long degree for nearly everything is also dumb.

I could barely survive on the money I was able to earn during uni. Bafög was denied but parents couldn't support me properly either. So no, I couldn't live a little in uni. I needed a proper salary for that.

I ask my young colleagues in their late 20s early 30s why they don't make kids. They say they don't feel like it, they are afraid of the commitment and prefer to have fun. How long is the fun supposed to be is unclear. I had my fun while being a student, I did my studies in a foreign country, so when I started work I didn't mind having my first child (was 28).

I keep warning them how tiring it is to raise a child, and you better do it while you're healthy.

> I had my fun while being a student

I've never understood the whole "party it up in college" thing. Like number one, I had to go to class and then do school work. I also had to work a shit job to try and not end up drowning in debt for school. I basically did the "996" thing (12 hour days 6 days a week) between school and work for years. It was not a party for me. Also I have zero interest in putting a child through that or many aspects of the modern world.

Well, having fun is a very subjective thing. I was not a party guy neither but I must admit I did not need to work like you. It is just that I went abroad to study. That was an adventure for me as I could barely speak English at 18. I lived 5 years in the UK, then I worked 7 years in Germany. It fulfilled my need to discover the world and gave me a better insight about what is good or bad in a country.

Now I am having fun by doing cycling trips several days with my son. We are eagerly waiting for the sun.

I don't see what young people see, what is bad about the modern world? We are not at war, we have an incredible comfort, I don't get why it is not a good time to have children (if you want one of course). I think people should just stop trying to plan everything and just do something and improvise.

Disclaimer: having children is a money sink and limiting factor when want to pursue your career, but it is not blocking you.

Well, being somewhat homeless is an issue for me as well. While the idea of being a free spirit is nice, I suspect that society will more or less expect me to provide shelter for said children. As I said, there really are multiple problems with the whole idea.

Agreed : first child at almost 26, second one almost ten years later, it was much easier physically for the first one !

It's a huge host of reasons and they all have a tiny cumulative effect. Also after a while it also reaches a tipping point in that "all my friends aren't having kids so why should I".

The reasons vary based on who you ask and their bias. My bias will be obvious. Here's my list:

- War on traditional family values. That includes marriage and having kids.

- War on men.

- Toxic and degenerate pop culture promoted to teens.

- Hookup culture, dating apps, easy and promoted and celebrated divorces

- Daddy government is there aleays to provide a huge cushion for badly picked marriages. For women at least.

- Men are scared away from marriage due to the legal system being skewed against them.

- Promotion and glorification of party culture. Having kids and a stable marriage is Hard. If everything is handed on a platter to you from an early age and you're shielded from the realities and difficulties of life, this is going to seem like a huge life decision that is too hard.

- We don't realize how much our collective fiddling and tweaking with various parts of our world with laws and incentives is having on society and culture. We're fucking it up royally. Just look at how degenerate pop culture is atm, and look at it honestly, and wonder if it's healthy for society on the aggregate.

Most of my friends have been married or in long term relationships for at least a decade now. None are divorced. With one exception none have children and we're all approaching 40. Your list doesn't address why my peer group is choosing not to have kids.

I don't know what to tell you. My guess would be that they all enjoy the leisure lifestyle that's not disturbed by children. Maybe they're scared of having children by the possibility of them being bullied at school due to the prevalence of thug culture? School shootings? Maybe Greta and that camp have them so scared that they'll be destroying the environment by having kids? Maybe they are guilted by woke culture about being white so they want to wipe out their own race. Who knows.

At the end of the day. Ask them why. Then poke and prod till they tell you the core of why they think that way. Then see what in recent culture or happenings might have caused them to think that way.

I'm not at a loss as to why my friends aren't having kids. I'm at a loss as to why you think your list is relevant to why my friends are having kids. You've produced a fine list of culture war talking points but none of the simple stuff. No talk of economic problems or people not wanting to continue the same destructive cycles and finally feeling like they have the option. Instead it's all "Greta" and "woke culture" and "white guilt".

My comments seem not welcome to you. Speak to your friends, as I won't engage further in an antagonizing discussion that seems to be turning personal with you.

Well, in this case the choices are personal as they are effecting myself, my wife, and my friends. I suppose it's understandable to feel OK infantilizing people and making arguments around culture war hot topics if you're not personally involved, but the implication that it's something like white guilt or the war on men is detached, disrespectful, and antagonizing.

I think some elements of this are true, and yes I think culture plays a big part in it.

I am sorta on the opposite side of this I want to have kids, get married, I'm willing to support my husband if I make more then him (whenever I get one), but I feel like I'm just not stable enough yet. Most of my tech jobs are short lived, I'm also trying to run my own business and just don't have the time to do a lot right now. I grew up with parents with hugh issues with money and they divorced and I don't want that for my future. I don't want to fight over money or jobs or small stupid stuff that doesn't matter in life.

I think honestly a lot of people just don't feel like they are in a stable position, we also don't have strong communities anymore that helps out when stuff does get hard like marriage or raising kids. I think honestly a lot of people are really lonely and just live with it because they don't know how to fix it. We don't have systems or places in place that make it easy to hang out nor do we have the time nowadays. Or at least I don't. I'm in my 30's though and I'm in a long distance relationship but it sounds really hard to imagine actually getting married anytime soon I just have so much going on. I really believe people want to feel loved and have someone to love, I think a lot of our society now though is hyper competitive, commercialized and no longer built for families. People don't trust anymore and it's a fear driven culture.

Increased education requirements to not live in poverty is the #1 reason in my opinion.

When parents expected young children to perform unpaid manual labor the net cost of upbringing was negligible or even profitable.

Now many people only start earning at 21 or later, and aren't even able to support their parents at the point due to the huge size of mortgage and college loans.

I wish countries stopped trying to "solve their fertility problem." We don't need so many people. We don't need laborers to exploit. We should focus on technological and robotic solutions to the labor shortage.

> exploding heads …

I love this!

“Too expensive” doesnt make sense when low income countries have more kids than high income countries.

Those aren't kids. Those are kid-shaped pensions.

You're kinda proving my point.

People think kids are too expensive because of the expectation of what kids cost. Not just monetarily but also in terms of time.

You see it especially in Asian countries like South Korea. Kids mean hiring tutors, violin lessons, test prep, etc. Because of course my kid won't be average, he's going to be a next Bill Gates and that costs a lot of money.

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