We ran a phone check at a Y Combinator event in SF
blog.getclearspace.com
blog.getclearspace.com
That said, I fully support the idea of being phoneless in personal conversations. I was having lunch earlier this week with someone I hadn’t seen in a long time, and was determined to keep my phone in my pocket. It definitely took some willpower to ignore it when I felt it buzzing a few times.
I heavily curate my alerts so I knew these were messages from someone important to me. But sure enough, when I checked them after lunch it was all things that were totally fine to wait for an hour or so. And it was nice to be fully present for lunch.
I am shocked that anyone would trust their 2FA to a slip of paper at an event where half of the crowd would probably describe themselves as a hacker or even social engineer.
There are either way more people who work in the facility than boxes, or nobody trusts that the cheap combo lock will work again when they need to retrieve their stuff at the end of the day. I've had to help a co-worker pry his box open and I was like, "why would you put your stuff in there?"
That same co-worker, by the way, later claimed that his ex-wife (or someone she hired) came to our facility and rooted his phone while it was sitting in our lobby next to the boxes. It turned out that he was deranged, but it made me think for the first time about the risks of everyone with a TS/SCI clearance predictably leaving a big pile of phones unattended.
(Fyi, you can always spot the secret squirrels by their watch tans. Only those who work in places where cellphones are not allowed still wear wristwatches 24/7.)
1. I’m traveling and I encounter somewhere that doesn’t take cash
2. I’m traveling and I encounter somewhere that declines my card for being foreign
I wait for the day when both coincide and I’m left staring at my food unable to eat it.
I worked in hospitality for years. It’s tough, thankless, and not paid well. Tip heavy and often!
Good, and the business should compensate the waiters like in rest of the developed world.
Once people stop tipping waiters will quit and businesses will be force to either pay them like regular staff or move to self service.
It would be interesting to know the portion of people that doesn’t have a wallet anymore and see if it’s growing.
Most of the time I just take my phone, but if I’m going in the car or out shopping I take the card holder.
The only time I throw some change in my pocket is if I’m taking the kids somewhere
It didn't take long to realize that configuration was all I need for most outings. Just add my HSA debit card to my pocket and a keyring to my belt with my car key and a couple others, and add a stash of $100 or so hidden in my car and over 99.9% of my outings are covered.
I never got it back but I also realized it was basically a useless brick. Is there any value in stealing an iphone/modern android these days? They are so locked down what's the point?
The only regret I had was I didn't turn on "Find my phone" because I'm so privacy paranoid but at least the password was a much more complex alphanumeric one than most people's plus w/o an icloud backup (pre-2023 before it became encrypted).
Your government and phone company already track you. Turning on 'Find my phone' doesn't really add any more tracking on top, it just allows you to benefit from the tracking, too.
Many people stick their credit card or ID in the back of their iPhone case as well.
I used to when I didn't fully trust Apple Pay, and when ID apps werent fully available.
I avoid SMS 2 factor.
I've been to places where I had to hand over my phone not long ago, the German consulate in S.F. being one. I don't think it's uncalled for. Generally I rather not carry such a device at all.
If you have your phone in your pocket in a locked Faraday cage, it prevents compulsive checking and any network notifications. It also means coat-check folks don't have access to it. The fact it can record other attendees doesn't matter. They may have their phone just in their pocket.
Typing that out, it makes me realize the Faraday cage is unnecessary. Just turn it off, lock it in a reinforced sleeve, people at the front hold onto the key for you.
Surprised I didn't realize this immediately. I sometimes lock my phone in a bag and put the key in another room. If I'm really serious I put the key in an envelope and write on the outside why I'm doing this. Tearing the envelope makes a nice barrier.
I think it was this one https://www.overyondr.com/howitworks
Maybe I should just silence everything else on my phone too...
My phone only lets calls and instant messages through. Bank notifications are silent. Everything else is turned off.
Then filter email the same way. My inbox is a sacred space. It's similarly quiet.
It made a big difference for me. I get sidetracked a lot, and reducing interruptions and unnecessary information helped.
I wrote the exact steps I took here: https://nicolasbouliane.com/blog/silence
I just wish Android had better controls for notification sound. E.g., if my whatsapp groups get chatty I silence my phone. But if my wife calls I want it to ring.
But as long as I have to approve them, who cares if they are trying to log in in Pakistan? I won't approve the notification if I saw it right now, or later.
I also am disinclined to hand my phone over, but entirely because the premise of doing so silly. Set it on mute and go about your life...
As for the phone security - same for me, but because of that it needs such protections that I can leave it anywhere and I know that my data won’t be breached.
That said I'm usually the least phone-glued person in most events.
It felt magical. Like the parties we had in the before smartphone era. Each gust arrived their phone in their hand, noticed that there is absolutely no reception and just put it away. So people talked, joked and debated. With anyone staring at their phone.
I went to a small superbowl gathering once with some folks I didn't know(friends of friend), where the host quite literally spent the entire time on their phone, reading twitter. They'd announce "someone posted 'x'" about a play or commercial. The others would feign laughter, then go back to playing with their phones until they heard cheering or laughing. I left at halftime in disbelief people operated this way.
Not having a phone at the dinner table (with family, with friends, etc), for example, could easily become a social norm/taboo, and it already is for most people I know already. The benefit of these rules (vs more aggressive top-down rules like no phones in the venue period) are there can be exceptional exceptions when you really need to be on-call.
While I'm sympathetic to the motivations behind stuff like gov/venue controls for stuff like this, in practice it's usually a much tougher social issue that needs to be nurtured rationally/carefully, with respect towards those tangibly victim to the downsides. We all are inclined to seek cheap boogie men to blame for social issues but we also tend to disregard the downsides of the utility of hard/aggressive rules while simultaneously being fully aware of the natural inclination to bypass such rules when it matters.
If we decided to we could have our government snuff them out for good in a single bill.
Rudeness is subjective and based on implied social agreements that a) change, and b) are not as universal as they are assumed to be.
Based on my personal experience I can agree that if someone uses their phone in a gathering of people it can disconnect them from those people, and that some people see “choosing to disconnect” as disrespectful, but I think that to unilaterally call that disconnection rude is to ignore the world we’re currently living in as well as the legitimate chance that those people are addicted beyond their control.
This comment feels very foreign to me.
Very rarely do I encounter someone so glued to their phone that they can't interact at a social event. Usually that person doesn't engage much with other people and eventually stops getting invited to future events because they're simply not showing any interest in socializing. I don't even understand how someone works their way into a friend group if they're too attached to their phone to be socializing.
It's weird to hear about groups of friends who are all so attached to their phones that they can't interact unless forcibly separated from them (or from reception). And that's coming from someone with a very tech-heavy group of friends.
It's not like someone doesn't interact at all. But all those tiny distractions went away. No quick glance at a messenger, or social media, or looking something up.
Ah, but how old are you?
The anecdote in the parent comment was from 2014, nearly a decade ago
It seems like it’s probably legal. Might want to provide a reception-available area to give people the option of stepping out to check their phone, similar to a smoking area.
There was also a defacto "tradition" on campus, you saw coats and shirts on balconies and then you knew they'd been to a bar last night. :-D
If you wanna get all covert & secret agent ish, then have data harvesting agents plant lil doohickeys that extend range lol. Now you got some neo noir sci-fi cyberpunk espionage actions a-brewin.
I swear every time I go to one of them, my phone loses its mind and I’m forced to use their wifi.
I genuinely hope they never build a tower up there.
I now intentionally seek out no-phone shows and events (it's common in standup comedy).
The first two enforce the rule with security - if you get caught, you get kicked out and banned from future shows.
The later two shows used the pouch system from Yondr. At Chris Rock the show started 90 minutes late since people came to the show with their tickets on their phones and had to walk back out to unlock them. There were also nowhere near enough staff to lock the phones and provide pouches, nor to unlock phones. It was chaos.
Chappelle doesn't do digital tickets, but on the way out there was almost a crush in the crowd as people lined up to get their pouches unlocked. We ended up forcing open a fire escape and went home with our phones still in pouches, I ended up unlocking the pouches at home (you just gotta beat it open, or use a magnet)
The implementation of these systems aren't perfect - but there is definitely room here for a good implementation.
My thought was that the best solution would be phone lockers in venues that are after ticketing. Simple slots that you slide your phone into and get an RFID tag with a locker number back in return. I'm sure somebody will figure it out.
Since you stole the pouches the system can't work that well given the company lost money from your theft.
> Simple slots that you slide your phone into and get an RFID tag with a locker number back in return
how you would align them for hundreds of thousands of attendees to not forget their numbers, lose their tags, crush against the wall.. no idea
That's crazy. I went to two Yondr standup shows and it was no real added delay at all. I assumed it would be on the way out, but unlocking took about 5 seconds per person and there were more than enough attendants to handle it.
They were both large theaters (~3,000 seats), not stadiums though or anything (~30,000). I do wonder how many attendants you need based on audience size. Or if they've moved on to "self-service" stations on the way out or something.
Whereas a joke is very shareable, and stuff that pushes the edge can go super viral, especially when taken out of context -- risking Twitter/media backlash. So both the rewards and risks are WAYYY higher for standup.
I get they want people to enjoy the show and really not record it, there are problems though.
A major problem with no phone events is that you can't easily find friends in the event, we had to meet up with people and only knew their seats. People were in various areas and coordinating all that like the 90s was a task.
The biggest problem though is people with kids or elderly or assistance needs, being without the ability to receive or send messages in those situations is bad. Someone in our group had a family member in hospice and another with a babysitter, that time was a bit less enjoyable. Just having a phone on vibrate is nice to be able to check out and enjoy the show without worry.
A lower issue but one that stings a bit is you can only take pictures/videos outside the event. Once inside you never can even take a picture/video of anything. So the event history is just outside and since friends were inside those moments are only in memory not pictures/video. I love to get some experience shots at events/festivals/fairs/concerts etc, it can take you back.
Around that time I went to two other non no phone events that were much smoother and I have photo/videos from.
At Adam Sandler they did allow phones and just told people to stop recording, that was much easier. Concerts that are no phone also lose the option to do the lights on final songs or moments, that is fun. Sandler had everyone do it on the Chris Farley song.
Smashing Pumpkins / Jane's Addition around that time also allowed phones and recording and it was great.
All the events were cashless and many people just like to bring their phone to pay. Well you had to get out the credit card or use the wristband. That is another annoyance.
So my review of no phone events is they are bad and unnecessary, they delay the concert fun with lines, make contacting friends harder and take away from the experience, make paying harder, add a massive pouch you have to carry around with your phone in it. If an event is no phone I'll have to really really like the act otherwise I'll pass. If they want to stop people recording just have a no record policy if you want but don't hinder friends/family/memories.
Funniest part is there are tons of recordings of the Chappelle/Rock event and most from the boxes where the policy is lax. Another reason not to like the policy, only the proles in VIP and GA have to adhere. The event was great though, Chappelle, Rock, Donnell Rawlings were all hilarious, Blackstar (Mos Def) was good as always and opener Rick Ingram was hilarious as well. I just wish I could have maybe snapped a shot at least of the final part where they all got on stage. It was amazing to see Chappelle and Rock like 20 yards from where we were sitting.
No phone policies at events -- delete.
The way they did it was with a special sleeve that you would lock your phone in. You had your phone, you just could access it.
At the end of the show, they used a strong magnet to unlock your phone.
And they should be proud of that? The phones used to cf. provide 2FA access to their company.
As someone commented: I am jokingly curious if they would do the same thing at DEF CON. Or provide that phone to a LEO/DoJ without a warrant.
If you think with a security mindset you probably work in security.
What is the worst that can happen? Everything is ssl with hsts so even if they own the wifi connection they can’t eavesdrop. Do you expect someone to launch an apple zero day?
I've worked in netsec for 2 years and know the weakest link to connected security is usually the users
They are not that important, nobody is going to use a zero day iOS exploit or roll up with a Cellebrite device to unlock phones at a early stage founder event.
It's not the same as surrendering your phone to a hostile border guard as a human rights activist.
Snowden: "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
Great opinion
That said, in all seriousness you're right: the notion of handing over one's phone is insane to me.
You’re giving away your informational life to some random dude.
Trust and incentives are a thing. Just like depositing money in your bank is different to telling a stranger on the street to keep your money safe even if the act of handing over valuables is the same. It's not in the interest of the bank to lose trust, just like the founders of that app are not in the business of cracking the phones of fellow founders.
No way to prove that happened here, but it's the sort of thing that any crook worth their salt would be spinning up a fake phone-locker business for. "We'll provide phone lockers for your event" would get you a lot of boring-but-profitable gigs, and the occasional chance of a lifetime.
You're exposing the same level of vulnerability whether you give it to a border guard, the cops, or your nurse in hospital.
It's fundamentally the same action and same vulnerability, papering it over with "you can trust this particular system" means nothing - the act is the act.
If you want to be more inclusive, have a sign like, "Tell your cofounder/babysitter than in an actual emergency they can call or text [number] and we'll come get you."
I could happily live without a phone. As it is, according to the Android "Digital Wellbeing" tool, I've opened / unlocked my phone only 10-20 times per day for the past week. I actually hate my phone (it's a three year-old budget model) and prefer to do everything on my laptop when I can sit down somewhere and focus.
But I have four small children, and my wife would not be pleased if I told her that I was just getting rid of the thing and would become harder to reach, or wouldn't be able to make an emergency phone call.
However, I'm also in the military and have worked in a number of environments where I couldn't have a phone. In those environments, there's always a 24/7 duty number that I can give my wife to call in an emergency, which someone will answer and start a process to find me.
Edited to add: In either Deep Work or Digital Minimalism, Cal Newport says that his wife made him finally get a phone when their first kid was born.
Having lived in a really unsafe enviroment, there's too many variables that people who live in safe places take for granted, Have you ever been followed by a car? or have you had a family member kidnapped? Calling the right person (Because local LEO wouldn't do enough until an actual crime had taken place, has saved me and my family more than once)
Personally, I'm waiting on a call about an adoption, and I can't ever leave my phone until that goes through. Even before cell phones, parents would leave a number for the babysitter for where they'd be. Yes, kids were raised without phones before, but I'm sure it wasn't a better situation when parents got home and found a note that their kid had to go to the hospital or something. People may say this is fear-mongering, but I guess they don't have kids with health issues.
If you don't want to be distracted, there are features like Screen Time that can lock you out of every app except phone and messages if you want.
Its like saying "just use a pay phone, like we used to do". You could, except there isn't a single payphone in my country.
That said, I'm surprised why anyone wouldn't trust the wardrobe at a ycombinator event.
Only the most powerful people are capable of operating without one so there will be desire to signal that somehow.
Or those older than 30. And I can assure you, they have no desire to signal that fact.
More visible, like a necklace.
This would be great for another reason: Social norms exclude the male population from being socially accepted to wear any kind of jewlery, with few exceptions (watches, studs, stickpin). This would help to increase inclusion.
A conventionally attractive assistant + a security person who stay respectfully close.
https://www.vogue.com/article/yondr-locks-up-phones-at-conce...
There's no secret or magic trick. Just keep it in your pocket and don't take it out.
There is exactly zero chance I'd be leaving my device with these people. Trusting your phone to strangers when you can just silence it and leave it in your pocket is a fool's errand - this whole thing is just silly. It's unnecessary risk - everything from auth, to payments, to my career is piped through this device. Leaving it with absolute strangers is leaving someone with my most significant and risk-prone tool that I own.
Sorry to be pedantic but common folks - let's use some common sense here. This is so silly.
It's not that you're likely to be victimized in this particular venue. It's that you should practice good habits if your device has, or ever will have, access or exposure to information you or your company would be damaged by if stolen.
I'm sorry - but this is just bad personal opsec regardless of what event you're attending, or who you're rubbing elbows with. Sorry, but my opinion on this is different than yours.
If they had a bank of PO Box style lockers (so some rudimentary physical security) and a security guard I’d be satisfied, but a couple fellow founders standing guard over a card table while also themselves being distracted by the meet-and-greet nature of the event is not my idea of a good place to leave my phone.
It's just a dumb way to run this, if this is what you want to do. The amazing part is that they found so many people willing.
Honestly it doesn't surprise me that much. People who tend to end up in these opportunities have incredibly privileged lives that allowed them to arrive at such an event/opportunity. With those privileged lives they can be quite insulated from stuff like theft, security, etc.
Just because someone's privileged, or rich, or a founder, or hell even technical... doesn't mean they have common sense. Handing custody of your phone over for no reason other than a "social experience" is just evidence of how they're out-of-touch from normal life/security practices.
It's just a setup I'd expect from someone in grade 2, not people pretending to be professionals.
I also use my phone for all sorts of security authentication. I wouldn't volunteer it to anyone else for any reason that wasn't an absolute emergency. It's a needless risk without any benefit. I can just keep it in my pocket on silent.
*obvious parody
Nobody believes me, and even showing them my numeric pager brings doubts.
I had a recent court filing (probate), and it really surprised me when the official public form asks for both phone and email (which I did not list, and the filing still went through). Same with DMV/titling vehicles... why does everything think this is okay [to "require" personal information]?
Just so free not always being reachable.
What a closed minded viewpoint.
I have more actual friendships than I think the average person in my demographics.
Just prefer not to be reachable, unless you know my pager# or where I live (which is few and far — how I prefer to live).
There are dozens of us out there! DOZENS!
Reminds me of the Evil Maid attack as pictured in https://objective-see.org/products/dnd.html
Super glad my granny always made sure I knew how rude it was to look at my phone when you're with someone.
PS And if you ever need a security consultant with expertise in software, hardware and office security, you know where to find me!
The biggest obstacle to doing this at social events is that people often want to take photos throughout the night, and own phones are almost always how we do this. One solution is to ensure there's a good roaming photographer who can take peoples details and share the photos later, but it still feels like a bit of a barrier to scaling this to places like function centres, etc.
My sister got back to Berlin from a hiking trip, where she brought no technology. It was the summer and per usual she was wearing her little sailor's hat, navy short shorts, and a white tank top. She went straight to Berghain, a techno mecca club with a notoriously strict door policy and the most extensive body contraband search in Berlin. No photos or video are allowed inside, so everyone's phone cameras are stickered.
Pam is friends with the booker and was on the staff guest list, so the door staff treated her with the smallest modicum of respect afforded by such a self-serious organization. They padded her hips but were frustrated to find no phone on her person. "Where is it?" they demanded. "I don't have it" she smiled with her natural strong ease. Impossible. They simply couldn't believe in the existence of a person without a mobile phone. Flummoxed, they finally demanded she remove her sailor's cap, as that was the last possible hiding place. Seeing nothing there, disappointed---but strangely charmed---they waved her in.
what was cool was that at the end, he had an awesome souvenir for the trip, complete with geotags (scribbles on the maps), contacts (phone numbers on the margins) and memory triggers (spills and tears of the pages).
I don’t view the perpetual connectivity as a bad thing; I like being able to actively look stuff up immediately, I like being able to do something when my conversation partner inevitably has to use the bathroom, and I think the “phone bad” mantra is reductive nonsense.
Maybe this is my inexperience or overabundance of paranoia but that would be a red flag to me. It takes so little to lose the castle to an adversary...
Places you truly can't check into work, or have them call you. Or if you have kids force the family to go oldschool and switch offscreens.
There are a few articles on it when I search but doesn't seem something that is particularly promoted or sort after.
In 2021 the Santa Clara county parks department sent a survey to campers on (among other things) whether they should improve the Mt Madonna park by having Wi-Fi. I'm sure the responses are heavily biased towards no. There's still no Wi-Fi there.
I’m guessing the issue was that the request to 2FA was sent to the founder’s phone and thus they didn’t see it. It would take some testing but perhaps it’s possible to take advantage of Do Not Disturb and other similar features on modern phones to upgrade a phone check with the ability to notice when there’s something important and go fetch the phone’s owner. I’ve always wanted an Apple Watch in the hopes that I could set it up to be a low-information zero-interaction way of letting me know when I need to look at my phone, but it has always seemed like Apple Watches are designed to be mini-phones and just as distracting. Maybe there’s a way, though.
If you’re logging in, you’ll obviously know to go looking for it. If you’re not logging in, you don’t want to get tempted or fooled into approving access when you shouldn’t. Buzzing someone’s phone incessantly with alerts is a known social engineering tactic for breaking 2FA.
2. Given that on your phone might have your credit cards in your digital wallet, bank apps that can access your financials, and email to allow someone to reset password - there’s no way I’d surrender my phone to a stranger.
In the beginning it was interesting to see how often I reach for my phone and tap these apps (eg on the way to get some water..)
It also became a litmus test for social activities: if I want to take the phone out, it usually means that the event is boring, and it is better just to excuse myself from it.
I'm bummed it doesn't work on websites, I guess I'm a nerd so not the target audience, but I use the mobile web versions of twitter and reddit because I don't want to give the app developers more permission than they have,but I apparently can't block the safari app (I don't need more fine grained blocking than this). I guess apple is probably making this impossible, but it's still a bummer.
Also, would it be a ton of work to get a firefox extension?
Cool concept, I hope it eventually meets my needs. I have the game I compulsively play blocked at least.
You could even add a limit networking and app function without entering some verbose acknowledgment that you are being a rude guest or some such.
Most reasonable people would appreciate the assist to have phone realize you are at the opera and silence itself for you.
Apple already has a solution for this. If you have something on your calendar, like a party invite, it'll suggest to turn on DND until you leave / until the end of the event. No forced "your phone is now disabled, go talk to people" necessary.
True it is ripe for abuse, hence why I was suggesting a geofence which requires setting up a physical waypoints around the enclosed space — not just a Wi-Fi hotspot telling your phone to keep it down. They could require a key purchased from Apple which then could be reported for abuse. Probably cheaper than foam case locks.
Giving your phone to a stranger can be daring, but it's probably the second best thing to leaving it at home. If you guys do that again, get a locker. I remember seeing a locker with chargers for phones in China. Requires less trust (if you don't actually plug it in).
I used to do the same, but after a fender bender I decided to keep one with me when driving in case I need to (1) take pictures or (2) make an emergency call.
But I don’t feel any less disconnected, because my phone is kept in airplane mode except when absolutely necessary. I get the benefits, without the drawbacks.
> Giving your phone to a stranger can be daring, but it's probably the second best thing to leaving it at home.
In my opinion, developing the self control to have a phone and not use it is better than giving it to a stranger.
* People who hand over their phones are perceived by YC as team players, or willing to engage fully with others, or savvy about some new tech-fashionable mindfulness practice (that the person is alarmed they haven't yet heard of).
* People who hand over their phones are perceived by YC as being followers rather than leaders, or having bad InfoSec sense, or not being connected and accessible at all times.
* If you're that concerned about perception you're not going to make it far in startup land
Obviously that's why this worked - you're not handing your phone to a stranger, you're handing it to someone who affiliation is clearly identifiable and who is one degree of separation from you.
I guess if you're selling it as a tool to get people to spend more time together, it's good?
It feels kinda bad I wasn't able to use my own words to sell the same ideas.
In ten years, I wonder what arranged event is next. Not angry, just...
Anyways, I honestly hope people have fun and can build their own life, sorry for all that.
Yet, while I have the device, I seldom use it. It can be helpful occasionally, and I take pictures at times. I might take it out of pocket and use it once or twice a week. Battery lasts me over a week despite 5 years old device.
I would certainly not surrender it to strangers.
they have a chrome extension and app [1]
saw them on product hunt a few weeks back [2]
[1] https://www.getclearspace.com [2] https://www.producthunt.com/products/clearspace
How did the alleged cofounder contact this person to let them know to send the 2FA code? lol
Hmm, I can’t select app categories unless I pay them ¥1000/month.
Never mind then.
If you are selling a phone then show me the phone, its specs, what buttons it has, what ports it has, how long the battery lasts..
Instead we get "It's an experience we call going light." "We're humans, we are taking back our lives."
Give me a break.
I also don't see why anyone would pay $300+ for the same tech as a $30 prepaid flip phone you can get at any gas station.
It's because they always miss one or two of the ten vital check boxes to get tech influencers (meaning, at the individual group level, more drilled down than "network effect") to jump on board.
One of the most vital check boxes: supporting whatever major method techies are currently using to avoid SMS/MMS.
1) Run a Phone Check at a Y Combinator Event... when there is no Phone Check at that event.
2) ???
3) PROFIT
You had me, lost me. That's just pretentious.
But I actually like the idea of a phone-check. What if it was a normal thing to choose to check your phone sometimes?
I have a suggestion so people who are security freaks don't panic about it.
You can always have them turn the phone off for you. In a non transparent plastic bag you seal after they turn it off.
When they come to show you that they hadn't broken the seal you provide them with the badge.
Seals, stickers, etc. are mild deterrents, not a shortcut for security.
I gave up having a smart phone last year. Has made my life better. Highly recommend.