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Comment by nostromo | Hacker News Reader

Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy:

(Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred)

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen...

(Edit: only one page is from Gender Queer, another is from a different book that was removed.)

If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much.

I really wish schools would focus on the basics: reading, mathematics, writing. There are too many educators that are trying to mold them into indoctrination facilities for politics and new theories of identity. There is plenty of time to do that at university.

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> Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy:

> (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred)

> https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen...

> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much.

> I really wish primary schools would focus on the basics: reading, mathematics, writing. There are too many educators that are trying to mold them into indoctrination facilities for politics and new theories of identity. There is plenty of time to do that at university.

I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child.

Also what you're leaving out is that behind the pixelation isn't a penis but a strap on. The second image isn't contained in the book at all.

Stop spreading misinformation.

> No sane educator or library person...

That's the problem:

https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jc...

https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-lib...

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-me...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclu...

https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-i...

There's plenty more, and even more that had it but were forced to remove it after parent backlash.

>>> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much.

>> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child.

> That's the problem: <lists articles>

The first article is about 2 high schools.

The second article is about a high school.

The third article is about a high school.

The fourth article is about a high school.

The fifth article is also about a... wait for it!... a high school.

High schools are not primary schools and high schoolers are not young children.

(Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.)

> (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.)

So should the high school library have a hentai section next to the manga? Hustlers on the magazine rack next to Newsweek? Lots of teens vape, so no one should have a problem with vape juice vending machines in the cafeteria, right? Wouldn't it make sense for the school district to have a PornHub subscription to supplement ProQuest?

The fact that teens do some thing does not at all imply it's appropriate for a school setting.

There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations.

You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1].

Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm. It's about bigotry, not the kids. As evidenced by the fact that these comments even crop up on articles such as this one, where the article isn't even about school libraries [2].

Sex and sexuality are deeply important parts of being human and it's possible to have uncensored discussion of this part of humanity without reaching for Hustler or hentai. I'm saddened that there are apparently people who aren't able to distinguish between uncensored discussion and straight up porn. Who cannot read or think or talk about sex without their brains pulling up hentai and pin-up girl style pornography. What an impoverished experience of humanity these people must have. No wonder they are so angry all the time.

[1] https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Howl_Obscenity_T...

[2] See https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP... and https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP...; $0.00 of the funds discussed in this article go to school libraries.

> Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm. It's about bigotry, not the kids.

And most of the time the people referencing the book haven't even read it is what drives me nuts. It'd be so easy to pick things that were actually in the book but they always have to go one step too far and make shit up. We live in a world where these idiots read something and blindly share it without doing a shred of research. Anything that supports their bigoted views.

> There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations.

Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre).

> These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm.

You do realize those aren't mutually exclusive? The wrong people attacking it on the wrong grounds is not justification for stocking pornography in a school library.

> Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre).

As I said, the first picture is taken out of context and the second one isn't even in the book. This book is porn the same way other educational material about anatomy and sexuality are porn.

> As I said, the first picture is taken out of context...

There isn't a context that could make that first POV/frontal view picture of someone getting a blowjob not-porn.

If that's appropriate for school, so is hentai.

Such images are shown in books about human sexuality, or sex guides. The purpose of those books is not to tittilate in an erotic sense, but to provide information or education.

To go further, almost everyone agrees that a cartoon of a man and woman having sex in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation is not necessarily pornographic; this is a standard sort of picture in age appropriate sex education materials.

Granted, these images concern sexual reproduction. However this only makes me question why people deem that image appropriate, but images of other positions or acts not worthy of learning about in other contexts.

The fact is that we do learn about sex at school for other reasons. "Safe sex", consent, and in many cases contraception are all taught.

So hypothetically, if we're fine with images to educate about reproduction, and images to educate about consent or safe sex for nonreproductive purposes, what makes the images in the book so different as to deserve to be forbidden knowledge?

> Such images are shown in books about human sexuality, or sex guides. The purpose of those books is not to tittilate in an erotic sense, but to provide information or education.

How-to sex guides and the like are not appropriate for a high school library.

> To go further, almost everyone agrees that a cartoon of a man and woman having sex in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation is not necessarily pornographic; this is a standard sort of picture in age appropriate sex education materials.

Is it? I don't recall having been shown anything like that.

And I would say a cartoon of two characters having sex and showing penetration would necessarily be pornographic. A medical illustration wouldn't (think stiff, cutaway diagram, narrowly focused on the necessary parts), but that's not a "cartoon."

> Granted, these images concern sexual reproduction. However this only makes me question why people deem that image appropriate, but images of other positions or acts not worthy of learning about in other contexts.

I think you need to figure out the difference between sex education and a sex guide on your own. You're playing fast and loose with categories, and getting yourself tied in knots as a result.

>How-to sex guides and the like are not appropriate for a high school library.

I wasn't saying they necessarily are; I was saying that such a representation isn't necessarily pornographic.

>Is it? I don't recall having been shown anything like that.

I do, even if it was many years ago.

>I think you need to figure out the difference between sex education and a sex guide on your own.

I have figured it out; the fact is that there is a continuum of representations of sex between a cut-out diagram of the interior anatomy of a penis penetrating the interior anatomy of a vagina, a diagram showing how a condom is applied, a picture of one adult on top of another in a book in a "How are Babies Made" sort of book for children, and showing how sex with a strap-on works. I don't see any reason to consider any of these necessarily pornographic - as all lack the primary intention to titillate.

It's so lazy to just see that picture out of context and decide that young people shouldn't read the book. Context matters and it's part of that author's story. Had you read the book you'd know that this wasn't an enjoyable act for the protagonist or a how-to for the reader but part of their difficult youth trying to figure out their sexuality and identity. Many people might feel like this and I'm convinced having this book available to them will make the lives of LGBTQ youth easier to cope with.

And again, this wasn't even a penis in that picture. This is definitely not a book to be considered porn. And if you haven't read it, I don't think you can convince anyone otherwise.

>> No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child.

Those seem to all be about high school libraries.

My recollection of high school is that by the time we reached it we'd seen far more than what's in that book, and we wouldn't have thought the book was a big deal.

But maybe it is different in high school nowadays. We didn't have the internet. Maybe kids now have such an overwhelmingly amount of wholesome entertainment via the internet that by the time they reach high school they have yet to get around to looking at sex stuff, so it would be a big shock to them?

> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child.

It doesn't belong in a high school library either.

I thought they were exaggerating when they said it that book was pornography, but holy shit it was literally true.

What's next? A hentai section in the school library next to the manga?

Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board. There's a whole nice, approachable, local body to deal with all this, basically everywhere in the US. It's arguably one of the closest-to-the-people and easiest-for-constituents-to-influence governing bodies that exists in this country.

[EDIT] "Wait, so why's that not what the outlets and politicians who are complaining about this, are advising as the right way to approach this?" because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate—a state governor can't grandstand about "get mad, and go... um... vote in your school board elections!" in a way that'll be effective at building their national profile or driving broader GOTV for their side.

> Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board.

Maybe they should do that too (and I believe that's actually not uncommon), but it doesn't preclude or de-legitimize other political action to address the problem.

In any case, tactical criticism such as yours is almost always noise. It usually amounts to a veiled instruction to surrender, and in any case would be constructed against any tactic chosen (e.g. "whatever it is you're doing, it's not the right way and you should stop and do some other thing). Also, opponents are motivated to give poor tactical advice and typically do so.

> because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate

Come on. All sides are grandstanding all the time nowadays, even on this particular issue. Complaints about it are almost always soaked with myside bias.

> Come on. All sides are grandstanding all the time nowadays, even on this particular issue. Complaints about it are almost always soaked with myside bias.

Agreed, but exactly one side made this fake issue A Thing.

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