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Comment by dakial1 | Hacker News Reader

I wonder if there is a market for a framework gaming laptop. Really hope there is.

Also, on another note, I've read this engadget article about how other companies tried to build an upgradeable laptop and failed but I see Framework as a different kind of beast for one simple reason. This is their only value proposition, they don't have an alternative. In a very "Innovator's Dilemma" kind of. way, Dell and other big manufacturers have their main lines with higher margins and/or volume that really drives their attention and money, so any new innovation that takes more than 1 to 3 years to mature gets cut pretty fast. For Framework is kind a kind of "burn the ships" moment, they don't have anything else to turn to, so they have to keep pushing. I really hope they shine (and don't get acquired)!

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We’ve been very deliberate about making this not a traditional gaming laptop, but a laptop that can be configured with enough performance to play intense games. You can configure it without the Graphics Module and have a high-performance 16” notebook with reconfigurable input and easy repairability and upgradeabilty.

If you could make it so you can completely turn off the dGPU through software (boot menu?), pulling no power, it would be insane. I would love the power of a dGPU to play casually on trips but turn it off for normal use when I'm just working. Also, I LOVE that it wouldn't look like a gaming laptop. I'm tired of the gamer-esque design cues, even when they're subtle (RGB keyboards are okay if configurable).

You can completely turn off dGPUs from software nowadays. In theory the driver should do it for you when it's not in use (And I find this works well for me), but you can also forcefully turn them off, both on Windows and Linux, such that they draw exactly 0W.

Hmmm. My experience with XPS 15s is you can turn it off with software in Linux, but it was pretty technical (not something average users would be keen on). I wasn't sure if that was the case for most laptops. It definitely wasn't drawing 0W when I was just coding/browsing/etc though, it doubled the battery life in Linux when I turned it off.

It depends on how recent the motherboard and GPU is, if you have an NVidia dGPU. If you have a GPU made in the last two years and a recent CPU, it works automatically out of the box with X11. On older systems, it's pretty technical, but thankfully many distributions now come with tools that handle it all for you and give you a button you can click to turn it off.

Yeah, my experience with iGPU+dGPU setups outside of MacBooks has been messy. Part of the problem perhaps is the various different ways it can be set up, e.g. with/without mux switch, and last I knew AMD and Nvidia handle iGPU ↔ dGPU handoffs differently rather than agreeing on a standard.

With that in mind I'd also prefer that there be a way to flip off the dGPU in BIOS to guarantee that it can't unexpectedly become a power vampire.

AMD and NVidia now use the same standard, which is PRIME for handoff and automatic shutdown using Runtime PM, and if needed muxes are handled by the vga-switcheroo.

On the latest NVidia/AMD hardware, no configuration should be required, unless you try to use Wayland on NVidia.

Unfortunately on NVidia you really need the latest hardware, both on the GPU and CPU side. If you do, it should generally "just work". Of course Linux is Linux and it might not.

I don’t think apple gets enough credit for how good their automatic graphics switching implementation was. I’d argue that most users who benefitted from it didn’t even know it was happening. It’s such a useful feature too, because dGPUs generally kill notebook batteries, and even at idle, they probably generate an impactful amount of heat.

Is there truly no equivalent to apples automatic graphic switching for PC laptops? If so that’s WILD.

ASUS laptops, as of 6.1, I think, have kernel support and a userspace CLI and GUI to trivially configure this stuff (`asusctl`). In Windows, you can use GHelper and avoid the hundreds of megabytes of gaudy crap that is Armory Crate to configure this as well.

`asusctl` (the CLI), and `rog-control-center` (the GUI) lets you configure fan curves, "ultimate mode" (mux switch), LED lights, effects, panel overdrive, battery charge limit and more

And then `supergfxctl`, when "ultimate mode" is disabled, allows you to configure "Hybrid" or "Integrated"(-only) graphics modes.

For completeness/disclosure, flipping the mux switch aka Ultimate mode on/off) requires reboot, though it seems this may become unnecessary with new/future hybrid graphics tech in laptops.

ASUS should shower the developer in money, this G14 2022, all AMD is the most satisfying, best, complete out of box Linux experience I've ever had. And I've owned a lot of Lenovos, Dells, etc.

That's really interesting to know. Thanks for mentioning it. The laptop sounds fantastic too: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-G14-GA402R-G...

Looks wise, it reminds me of my Legion 5i Pro 2022 if only for the back part (I/O, exhaust). There's more laptop behind the display unlike most laptop designs where the display is the edge.

Heck, I'd love to not even carry the GPU unless I want to use it. What ever happened to external GPUs for mobile gaming? I faintly remember hearing about them years ago, but I don't know if there were ever practical consumer/prosumer products. I imagine it's not uncommon for some laptop users to carry Thunderbolt docks that are pretty beefy (the one I use weighs a full pound, although I almost never carry it with me), and I would bet you could fit a decent mobile GPU in a similar or smaller form factor.

Will the graphics module be hotplugable (or at least, able to survive surprise removal or insertion without damaging the laptop and/or the card), or will it require that the laptop be fully turned off (perhaps even requiring to unplug the battery first) before exchanging it?

(My initial guess would be that it will require at least that the laptop be powered off, or will force it to power off when removed, because from what I understood the cooling fans are in that module).

I wonder if your offering would address a corner case: I have a Dell XPS 15 with a dedicated GPU. It's really obnoxious to allocate the dgpu to a vm and still use the igpu for video output, because the video output gets muxed through the igpu. Would the Framework let me use maybe a dummy plug on the dgpu and avoid muxing to make it easier to give the dgpu to a vm?

Possibly this could work better with all that space? https://imgur.com/a/V0Ykw1D

Presumably you could eventually get a 3rd party module like that.

Speaking personally, I would love a 60% keyboard option with a key layout similar to mechanical ones. Considering this doesn't really exist on the laptop market, I'd be willing to pay a premium for a framework keyboard like this.

If you watch the latest Linus tech tips video you can see the amount of customization available in that top deck area, which includes the possibility of a num pad.

As someone who's blind and wants a lot of CPU performance but doesn't care about the GPU I appreciate this. I'm torn between a desktop and a laptop when replacing my current 8 year old desktop. I'm hoping that I will be able to configure this laptop with something more powerful then the current Framework CPU's. Given the fact that I only travel two or three weeks a year it would be nice to have this act as a desktop but be able to take it with me if I wanted to.

Are you able to explain what and how you use your laptop?

I saw someone blind using an iPhone one and it utterly blew me away - I also had no idea what they were doing, as they were hitting buttons before text yo speech had finished.

I use https://www.nvaccess.org/ to read what's on the screen in synthetic speech.

I don't know anything about your specific situation, needs, and preferences, but GPUs are not self evidently useless for blind users. In some systems, they can contribute to higher quality speech synthesis. They could also have a role to play in vision support tasks (e.g. determining whether you're properly positioned in front of your webcam in a video chat, or recognizing and describing something you're holding up to your camera).

Can you post info about them contributing to speech synthesis? I use NVDA as my screen reader with the built-in espeak synthesizer. I've been using synthetic speech so long I find I don't want natural sounding voices, I prefer more robotic sounding ones since I can listen to them at a faster rate. Vision tasks is a good point but not something that applies to me. I almost never use a webcam on my personal computer. I use my iPone for OCR although I could see a webcam being useful for OCR in some cases.

I don't have information about specific speech synthesis systems, but contemporary speech synthesis often relies on neural networks for best quality, and those can benefit from GPUs. If you truly prefer robotic sounding, that may not be relevant to you. But if it's all about synthesis speed, that's where GPUs may bridge the performance gap.

Will third parties be able to create custom keyboards that plug in? I mean something like 36-keebs, e.g. Corne and similar keyboards?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/skf2sx/l...

I’d be surprised if there was a market for a Framework laptop dedicated to gaming but I am really intrigued by a Framework laptop that can game.

I use my laptop for my work software engineering but since the pandemic have gotten back into gaming a little. I’m on an old Xbox and it’s showing its age but I don’t game enough to justify buying a whole gaming PC. If I can plug a GPU into my work machine and play some games? Now that’s compelling. The fact that it wouldn’t have all the cringey “gamer” decorations you see on the average gaming laptop would be a bonus too.

(all that said a Steam Deck is probably still the more compelling purchase for me in that regard, I’ve been eyeing one for a while)

Definitely go with the Steam Deck. It’s literally a portable pc which you can turn adhoc into a workstation, plug into a TV for sofa gaming and it’s really really bang for buck. The performance is amazing, the community caring and it runs on Linux.

Personally I use an Xbox Series X and just stream my games to my phone or macbook air (using https://github.com/unknownskl/xbox-xcloud-client/releases) - performance is great.

> Framework laptop dedicated to gaming

Isn't one of the advantages of Framework that you can swap out parts, so it would be much easier for them (theoretically) to build a gaming version of the laptop.

I game on a framework laptop with an eGPU. I have a Razor Core Chroma with a Radeon 2060. There’s plenty of guides out there to get it up and running [^1]. I did try to get it working under Linux but wayland support for Nvidia is still a mess. For now, I’ve been dual-booting Windows to play my games on. It works really well.

1. https://egpu.io/best-external-graphics-card-builds/

Apparently there will be, with the 16”.

See this HN comment from the founder: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35289229

I have the Steam Deck, I mean, I had it, because I'm waiting for the RMA because mine had a nasty bug which capped either CPU or GPU at a low level. And this is my message to you: Beware it is pretty much a beta product, so buy it with this in mind. You will experience lot of bugs and troubleshooting, specially if you want to use it outside Steam's box (custom mods, emulator's etc).

Upgradeability is a huge plus for gaming laptops, and they're likely to get very favourable reviews from PC gaming reviewers, so I think they'll probably be successful!

That's a great point. While laptop makers who are used to the status quo probably aren't going to like this, the competitive gaming scene might like it a lot. A laptop where you can always have the latest greatest graphics card without replacing the whole laptop? You could charge a lot of money for that and it would still make financial sense for a certain type of person. I mean someone out there is buying the latest top of the line Razer Blade every year for like $4K right?

Anecdotally, it’s one of the main reasons I got one. Aside from work things that require Windows, it can run plenty of PC games. Especially when combined with an external GPU via Thunderbolt.

The market for gaming laptops is tiny, but long term upgradability is a big barrier there. It's possible that being able to upgrade the battery, GPU, CPU, even thermals, could be super enticing to the PC builder community.

>> I wonder if there is a market for a framework gaming laptop.

Yes, there is. We have four in our family, since ~2018, and three of them continue to run without issue. The main weak point for the 4th one has been the hinges and case. It happens to be a later model so I think the company 'value-engineered' it to have a shorter lifespan.

I wont discount that as a possibility, but it kind of goes against the company's mission, so I think thats kind of unlikely. A more likely explanation (in my mind) is that being a small company, there's a lot more variability of quality in each unit's parts than you would see from a larger company with more mature factories etc.

My partner and I both have frameworks, but mine has had a lot of issues with the track pad and theyve never experienced any.

I think the poster is stating that their family has four gaming laptops, but zero Framework Laptops, since our first product only shipped in 2021.

On your trackpad, could you reach out to our support team? We definitely want to resolve that for you.

Yes, to be clear the gaming laptops I was describing are not Framework laptops :)

"Gaming" is a wider demographic to target and makes sense from a marketing standpoint. However, the people that benefit from the same level of hardware and would be interested in the mission and aesthetics of framework are creators. Video content, indie/hobby game dev, light modeling, design work etc. This is really the group that's going to get excited about a 16" laptop with more graphics horsepower. I know I am.

I think Framework open sourcing their design helps a lot too. It creates a community and helps fix the “manufacturer couldn’t deliver what we wanted”.

Don’t like something? Fix it!

I predict that these are going to be a hit with CS students. Performance, customization, repairability, "geek cool" factor; it's exactly what I would have bought.

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