Subterranean Treasures: Cormac McCarthy’s late style | Hacker News Reader

Subterranean Treasures: Cormac McCarthy’s late style

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40 pointssamclemens35 comments

I'd be curios to know how well someone like McCarthy (and specifically his new releases) sells these days.

Similarly, another one of my all-time favorites, Delilo, has released several novels following the success of his opus Underworld but it doesn't seem like many of them are finding much of an audience anymore.

I don't see anything out of some of that 80s-90s literature style, the stuff that got me into "reading for fun," making many best seller / best of the year lists anymore.

Suppose it comes naturally as audience, culture, and taste all shift, but it's also a little sad for a fan like myself.

The reason you don’t see that style anymore is, more or less, because publishers stopped marketing it in favor of novels that appeal to the lowest common denominator and every passing fad. The English-speaking book world is controlled by four or five massive publishers who are inherently profit-seeking, and only incidentally art-seeking.

If you like low-reading-level fiction in YA-style (multi-genre—romance, sci-fi, fantasy, fiction), romance, or a couple crime-related genres, there's probably never been a better time to be a reader.

Outside that... it's rather spottier.

I’m not sure about that. The sci-fi and fantasy books I’ve been reading from the past decade are pretty damn solid, or at least plenty of them are. When I was younger I went through the “great novels” in sci-fi—I was even methodically going through the Hugo and Nebula winners at one point—so I think I have a decent point of reference. Quotes around “great novels” because I don’t want to equate greatness with awards.

Literary fiction is really just genre fiction that people pretend is not genre fiction. Kind of like how saying “I’m not into politics” is, itself, political in nature.

But what is the "genre" of literary fiction? It's far too broad compared recognized genres like science fiction. That being said, there is an annoying trend of literary authors writing science fiction books (McCarthy's "The Road", most of Margaret Atwood's books) and they and the literary establishment vocally denying that they are SF because they are Very Serious Works by Important Authors.

> But what is the "genre" of literary fiction? It's far too broad compared recognized genres like science fiction.

How are you measuring “broadness” here?

My experience with literary fiction is that it is as much a genre as sci-fi, mystery, or romance. It has its own clichés, as well as novels that avoid or deconstruct those clichés. The only thing I can think of as being substantially different is the cultural attitudes towards literary fiction, and the curious insistence that some people have that literary fiction is not a genre. I don’t see any justification for calling it “not a genre” other than argument which specifically defines “genre” in a way to exclude literary fiction.

I think if we sat down and tried to come up with a definition of “genre” that includes sci-fi, mystery, romance, and western, but excludes literary fiction, I would find a problem with the definition.

Kazuo Ishiguro won a Nobel for writing an SF novel. Although the New Yorker did try to claim it wasn't SF, I think most of the other reviews accepted it.

Have you read Piranesi by Susannah Clark (2020)? Categorized as a fantasy novel, but with even the smallest insight, one can see it is not a fantasy novel but a metaphor.

Have an upvote. Great book.

Yes, according to my journal I gave it a three of five. I recall it being a pedestrian (heh) unreliable narrator story driven by a Borges trope setting.

Seconded!

Well, it can't be a fantasy novel, because Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is the only fantasy novel ever written. Everything else is a Tolkien pastiche.

Same with music, cinema, theater, and fine art! Yes, fine art, too.

Cinema's doing great. I can't even keep up with the rate of release of likely-to-be-worth-a-watch movies, and I'm pretty sure I watch more movies than the average American.

There is a drought of funding for movies which are not either adaptations of existing IP, or horror movies. If this is your bag, you're in luck. Otherwise, you have somewhat limited viewing options compared to even ten years ago, forget about 30. The original comment was talking about "high brow" fare, remember.

Hahaha, I expected the criticism of my comment to be that too much of what I was counting as good is "high brow", in fact. Too artsy-fartsy. Leaning too much toward "The Green Knight" and not enough toward "Jaws".

[EDIT] Here, lemme just list the 2022 movies that I think were worth a watch if you're at all into the kind of thing they were doing:

    Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
    Glass Onion
    Top Gun: Maverick
    Bullet Train
    All Quiet on the Western Front
    Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio
    Crimes of the Future
    Death on the Nile
    Everything Everywhere All at Once
    White Noise
    Nope
    Prey
    The Sadness
    You Won't Be Alone
    Dual
    The Northman
    The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent (arguably just a less-exciting RRR, but hey, it makes up for it by also being shorter and non-horror comedy *is* a bit weak lately, so it gets in)
    Watcher
    Dashcam (one of the most interesting movies I've seen in a long time—you may hate it, but you'll feel *something*, damnit!)
    The Banshees of Inisherin

This is just ones I've seen (I usually manage, like, 1/2 of the films in a year that I want to watch, at best) and excluding a few that did in fact suck or that I didn't think quite merited inclusion (e.g. The Menu) or that are good for what they are but are pretty narrow in appeal (Violent Night). Like, I hear Cyrano is great, Emily the Criminal, Bodies Bodies Bodies, The Whale, and a bunch of others, but haven't made it to them yet (and, inevitably, I'll end up never watching some of them).

"Quite a few of those are sequels, remakes, or adaptations! White Noise was a book! Death on the Nile! One of those is a marvel movie!" yeah, I know—good luck finding an era in Hollywood when a ton of the films, and even a ton of the good films, weren't such. I reject that as, specifically, a complaint about this moment in cinema (it has more merit as a criticism of cinema in general)

The funding landscape for movies is radically different, that’s for sure.

We’ve somehow squeezed everything out of the middle. What’s left is the blockbusters at the top (Avatar, Marvel, Star Wars, Jurassic World), the low-budget indie movies at the bottom (within reach for funding by individuals, rather than studios) and in the middle, as far as I can tell, there’s just A24.

A24 is doing really well, but I think we’re missing the pipelines and economic incentives that brought us a bunch of our favorite movies from the 2000s and earlier.

A24 is great, but we’d be in a far healthier place, culturally, if there were ten A24’s funding and developing the next generation of writers, directors, and cinematographers. A little like Hollywood in the pre-war era, for example.

These days to do something original you have to be one of the ten established directors whose movies are proven ROI (e.g., Cameron, Villeneuve) or develop a subculture following (e.g, Peele, GDT). Being randomly struck by lightning works as well, of course (The Daniels).

Yes, exactly. A24 is successful but everyone else has been squeezed out, and there’s a lot less diversity in the middle between blockbusters and independent filmmakers.

My mileage varies, I feel independent cinema is practically non-existent while Marvel, Fast and Furious, Star Wars and other franchise properties are sucking the oxygen out out theaters and streamers.

Generally speaking, I'd say the novel of ideas is in retreat. Try to imagine W.G. Sebald's "The Rings of Saturn" getting published today. Or basically anything by Thomas Bernhard, one of the great literary weirdos. I can't quite put my finger on why this is though.

I just read McCarthy for the first time - Sunset Limited - and it blew my mind. Beautiful, insightful, unique, playful, tragic. Fantastic way to spend time!

Is this series a good next step, or am I better off reading something from his back catalog first?

Stella Maris, volume 2 of his most recent two volume novel, and The Road, have blown my mind. SM in particular focuses on a math prodigy committed to a mental asylum. I think it would speak to many people here.

I'm actually thinking of reading his entire collection, I've been so impressed by him. I just got No Country for Old Men.

Cool to hear the rec for Sunset Limited!

McCarthy simplified his style dramatically with "No Country For Old Men". That novel, and the ones following, are of course still tremendous but lack the almost mythological force of language of his earlier stuff.

My personal early-style favourites: "Child Of God", "Blood Meridian" (of course), "The Crossing"

Later style: "The Road"

Oh that's interesting. I have almost exclusively read older style. (Only exception is "The Orchard Keeper.")

Interested to try some things from the mythological early style!

I’ve read Blood Meridian and then went back to The Orchard Keeper. Going to work forward in rough chronological order of his published dates. Didn’t know about The Sunset Limited, will have to check out both the screenplay and the film.

Sunset Limited is a ~play, so for a similarly short Cormac rec I'd suggest The Road.

If you like his bleak, Hemingway-inflected style I'd suggest trying the short stories of Joy Williams ("Visiting Privilege").

I just finished the Passenger - I would definitely not recommend it as an earlier book to read of his. When reading it, I remember thinking during certain sections that if I wasn't already a McCarthy fan, I might just abandon it. Suttree is my favorite of his, and I recommend it to everyone, but I think All The Pretty Horses is part of a Trilogy of books that might be a good place to start.

Blood Meridian! Surprised I haven't seen this recommendation yet, since it's considered his masterwork and one of the greatest works of the 20th century.

If I were doing a guided intro to McCarthy for someone who hasn't read anything, I'd suggest:

1) Watch "No Country for Old Men" (and optionally read it - it's a very faithful adaptation but you'll get additional character motivation/backstory from the book)

2) All the Pretty Horses - bildungsroman of two teenage boys chasing a way of life that no longer exists. One of his more accessible works, and the one that made him famous outside of literary circles.

3) Child of God - a light, quick read with a sympathetic portrait of a necrophiliac cannibal.

4) The Road - This will hit especially hard if you're a parent. A beautiful novel about not giving into despair no matter how dire the circumstances.

5) Suttree - in some ways the mirror of All the Pretty Horses - a young man leaves his way of life when it becomes clear that said way of life is vanishing. Based on McCarthy's real-life experiences growing up in Knoxville. Easily his funniest book. Probably the most compelling description of a specific milieu (1950s Knoxville underclass) I've ever read - simultaneously accessible - there are people who lived that life who are still alive - and yet impossibly remote.

6) Blood Meridian - Hard to describe. I wouldn't read Blood Meridian first because it's quite difficult, and because it has a way of making everything else (like...everything else, not just his other work) seem not as good.

No Country for Old Men is both worth watching and reading, it's a rare example where both the movie and the book are near perfect.

> Blood Meridian - Hard to describe.

Blood Meridian: easy to describe truthfully, hard to do justice to in that description.

Easy description: A Western. The western. One of the great masterpiece novels. Set in the Texas-Mexico border area, circa 1850, beautifully lyrical writing, but is also an appallingly violent work, certainly the single most bloody book that I have ever read.

"A major theme is the warlike nature of man". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Meridian#Violence

Without spoiling anything, I do think The Judge is in my top 3 all-time fictional characters.

I read Blood Meridian first and he became one of my favorite authors. But I am a proponent of reading "hard" books (as long as you're not actually forcing yourself to do it).

I'm a McCarthy fan and I liked The Passenger/Stella Maris. Usually with McCarthy it takes ~50 pages for me to get into his writing. That wasn't the case this time around, both books are quick, easy reads.

McCarthy is at his best when he's describing characters doing things. The few moments in The Passenger when the protagonist is doing things are captivating but 85% of the novel is dialogue (compared to 100% of Stella Maris). The dialogue is great -- it's strange, clever, often funny -- but I found myself wishing there was more characters-doing-things.

On the negative side, the math/physics stuff eventually became grating. Also, misattributing "only the dead have seen the end of war" to Plato took me out of the novel.

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