Framework announces AMD, new Intel gen, 16“ laptop and more
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This is the way.
More vendors should do that. A huge load of obsolete but perfectly working laptop mainboards could be repurposed to other uses. Need a small system to set up a service on a LAN but don't want to feed scalpers by buying their outrageously overpriced Raspberry PIs? What about reusing the board from that old EeePC many of us already have, etc?
I think the only thing I didn't see was larger clickpads on the 16" laptop. I'm assuming this is all modular enough that once it comes along, I can just replace the wrist pad.
Definitely happy to see Framework offering 3D models for retired boards and an upgrade path. At this pricing, probably worth consideration for a new build even. Been wanting to pull the trigger on a home lab kubernetes setup, and the RPIs I have just don't cut it. These would definitely fit the bill.
Mainly stating, that a laptop cpu from the past couple gen are definitely nothing to turn a nose up at in terms of ability. The 5900HX outpaces an older i7-4790K and uses a fraction of the wall power and space. Especially, when they're headless in a closet.
I see the value proposition that this has in the particular case of Framework where you update certain parts, but the vast majority of laptops cannot have any change beside the RAM (if you're lucky) and the storage (same).
So in those situations, the best PC case is the one you already have: the laptop.
Also, don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Framework have basically given us what we’ve always wanted in a laptop. Just say thanks and buy one the next time you need a laptop.
The idea is that you have a spare mainboard laying around if you've upgraded. A cheap $40 case is a great way of putting that hardware to use.
And while many may not want the hassle, there's plenty of value for a home server with an external storage drive for a lot of people.
_Main_board? I know you're not supposed to call trunk "master" anymore because of (incorrect) associations with slavery, but what's wrong with "mother"?
Well before the whole shift in language thats going on.
Even manufacturers like MSI for example use the term "Mainboard" in German [1] but "motherboard" in English [2]
[1]: https://de.msi.com/Motherboards/ [2]: https://us.msi.com/Motherboards/
Often used for appliances like washing machine and TVs.
I have a tinkerer friend who call laptop motherboards 'mainboard' to differentiate them from desktop computers where you can actually plug graphic cards and Ram.
Plus, if what you're talking about is the experience of pregnancy and giving birth, then it makes sense to focus on that, rather than on the much wider experience of motherhood.
To me, it's more confusing that some people insist on using less precise terms because they find the idea of inclusivity offensive.
We're 100% in agreement on the offense issue though. I don't get why anyone is offended by what someone else prefers to be called. Take the politics out of it and that's like being offended that someone says their name is Steve when you absolutely refuse to believe they are called anything other than Bill.
Some vendors traditionally use different names, like apple uses "logic board"
- New Framework laptops are available using Intel 13th Gen and AMD 7040 series.
- New 61Wh battery, new matte display option & a Cooler Master mainboard case for $39.
- New 16 inch Framework laptop. Allows you to have a number pad or not, up to you and customizable. If I understood the livestream correctly, there are upgradable dedicated GPUs that connect to the 16 inch laptop.
This sounds fantastic, I very well may buy a Framework laptop later this week/weekend.
EDIT: Their site came back up, after reading the blog post I pre-ordered the Ryzen 7 13" to be my new Linux laptop.
"For the AMD Ryzen™ 7040 Series processors, we’ll be sharing more detailed specifications as we get closer to shipment."
Source: https://frame.work/gb/en/blog/framework-laptop-13-with-13th-...
On previous generations: the 4000 series starts to hit a relative performance wall at around 35W. The 5000 series clocked higher and hence gained more moving from 15 to 35 and 35 to 45.
Not sure about the 6000 series, but you can see for yourself: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Processor-Be...
Another point: you can throttle the 35W HS series to 15W, and get the laptop to run fanless or almost fanless since it is designed to cool a higher TDP.
Shipping estimate is Q3.
I'm guessing they don't want to officially support any specific distro, and offering support for multiple distros is probably a bit outside their wheelhouse at the moment. [e: this is perhaps not the case]
> Officially supported
> Fedora 37
> Ubuntu 22.04 LTS
https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-with-13th-gen-in...
Optimized for Linux
We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 38 and Ubuntu 22.04 will work fantastically out of the box for both the 13th Gen Intel® Core™ and AMD Ryzen™ 7040 Series models. We have thorough setup and troubleshooting guides and will continue to provide official support for these two distributions. Manjaro XFCE 22.0 and Linux Mint 21.1 are also working great, and we’re detailing the documentation for those as well. You can check compatibility with popular distros as we continue to test them on our Linux page or in the Framework Community.
I might find myself ordering one of these.
Not shipping with Linux installed gets Framework out of the business of managing distros and images themselves. They also dodge a neverending barrage of "But what about my favorite distro X?" that would surely come for them as soon as they picked some fixed set of distros.
If you are uncomfortable assembling computer components and installing an OS yourself then linux is probably not for you. This acts as a filter for people who are serious.
It's a lot easier to support newbie computer users on windows, and they are a lot more likely to get support from friends and family.
They would be shipping a DIY edition anyways, this vastly simplifies their inventory.
These may offend your Linux-maximalist sensibilities, c'est la vie.
Personally, I kind of wish System76 would sell framework laptops with a generalized configuration and PopOS pre-insalled.
Including any linux distro would be better, because it would show a growing linux desktop market share.
In the second case, you have to pass through SLIC and MSDM ACPI tables from host to guest. For example, like this: https://gist.github.com/Informatic/49bd034d43e054bd1d8d4fec3...
The 7040 series is good, but its not dGPU class like an M1/M2 Max. I think AMD has been scared to make one because OEMs won't want it.
But I do use the CPU from time to time, so a beefier part would be useful. I would rather not pay for a dGPU which I'd use maybe 1% of the time, and which would cost more and weigh more and possibly be a PITA to manage under Linux.
But what it sounds like you want is an E-core mad part from Intel. I always thought they should sell a 20-30 core laptop part with only one or two big cores as a compilation monster.
Indeed. I've been looking at the 12th gen laptops we're getting at work, but those were underwhelming. I don't remember which model CPU it was, but it only had 2 P cores (those are basically for "office work", so no one cares about performance). For compilation (Rust) it was in the same ballpark as my 11th gen i7 (so 4 "regular" cores + HT). For basic day-to-day work, they both felt the same.
As you say, I'd expect a part with more P cores to be interesting for my use case, which is exactly the same as your sibling's [0]
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=vladvasiliu#35280246
i spend most of my time in firefox and in terminals. i do use virtual machines quite a lot to test stuff around, so high cores count and high memory would be a plus for me.
but an nvidia gpu is a deal breaker for me. I just don't want it. I don't need it, i don't use it, it just makes the whole thing less usable. and it draws a lot power that i'd prefer using otherwise.
the intel integrated gpu is not only sufficient for me, i actually WANT it. it just works under gnu/linux and i don't have to mess with drivers.
I cannot stress enough how much i hate having to deal with proprietary drivers.
and last time i played a videogame, it was openarena, and it ran beautifully on the intel hd 600 my work laptop had (dell latitude 7390, great little machine).
edit: regarding amd gpus... i'm not sure. i've been told they work with open source drivers, but still it's a power usage i would happily avoid.
That being said, Firefox and Chromium use the integrated GPU more than you think, and they feel faster with a stronger IGP. Just try disabling some of the gpu acceleration and see how it feels.
For example, I could disable the nvidia card on my ThinkPad W530, but then i'd lose the use of the external video output (because it was wired to the nvidia card).
and yes i know it depends on whether the laptop has a mux or not... it's not always easy to determine, not all reviews go explicitly over this detail...
I just don't want a discrete graphics card. Not an nVidia one for sure.
i have strongs doubts the doxygen webpages i spend time on will get any faster with an nvidia 3090.
They actually feel similar to Firefox running on Linux on an i5-6500's IGP.
It probably depends on the websites you visit. The only thing better on the newer ones is video decoding for YouTube or the like. I usually actively avoid websites with animations and other similar stuff as I find them very unpleasant to use. But I've noticed those typically tend to use the CPU, even on a Zen3 or Intel 11th gen IGP, even on Windows + Edge.
The old unibody MacBook Pro comes to mind as an example of this.
Traditionally yes; the machine is designed to only run the dGPU under heavy load, not all the time, the BIOS setting just disables doing the thing that you did in the "heavy load" condition. I guess there might be machines it wouldn't work on but I've never known any.
I have an RX5600 and an AMD Zen3 with integrated GPU (in separate computers). Both work perfectly under Linux with AMD's in-tree drivers.
I don't have a multi-GPU PC, so I don't know what the switching situation is.
On the Framework 16, I wouldn't be surprised if someone makes that: it looks like the design would accommodate a left/right-hand side narrow input module with the keyboard still centred.
On keyboard layouts like Framework's, I still have trouble trying to touch-type the right control key with my ring finger-nail. I prefer a "75% keyboard" with an navigation/editing column which provides room for the right ctrl key further right. (And full size arrow keys. And makes shift-End easy for selecting rest of line.)
Maybe we can hope a Kickstarter keyboard maker will make a Framework version in a few years. Main limitation is the thinness, only 3.7mm.
I've had similar cursor problems with those keyboards that have page-up and page-dn next to the up-arrow key. Just a little finger displacement when trying to left-arrow and the cursor is suddenly inserting my subsequent typed text far from the intended location.
And my hands are a little big. Not crazy big though.
If this is anything to go off of, then it seems like they are going to support embedding full QMK enabled input devices. Extremely exciting!
The interface for input modules to the rest of the computer is "just" USB 2.0, so you could put just about anything there that'll fit in one of the input module form factors. Although high resolution, high frame rate touchscreens are probably out because of bandwidth constraints (since it is only USB 2.0).
I wonder if we'll see a Kickstarter for it soon...
Unless one can come up with a way to produce a custom keyboard with the same height restriction, using something like a Thinkpad keyboard which is considerably taller would essentially require a custom taller chassis.
Not impossible, but relatively hard I would say.
Though my Thinkpad can still handle another 5 years of wanton abuse I'm sure, so I have all the time in the world.
Man my next laptop is gonna be awesome. Literally everything I want in a laptop, which has never existed until now(well, soon).
Looking forward to purchasing the 16 regardless though. Keep up the amazing work / mission with Framework. Fantastic work to the team.
(Preferably a proper version with thumb clusters.)
At least for me, that would make this laptop a must-buy.
Honestly, I see the biggest problem that people have entering the ortholinear/ergonomic keyboard market is cost: the obvious choice is to target mechanical keyswitches, but you quickly realize your consumer base would rather pay more (in parts cost and construction effort) to get exactlty what they want.
But what if you went as cheap as possible instead? What if you made flat rubber dome boards that cost next to nothing to manufacture; and sold them for $40 a pop? You would probably broaden your target audience by a factor of 100, and have huge profit margins.
Doing that for an integrated laptop keyboard would be even easier to sell. I would gladly use shitty rubber dome switches if it meant having a split ortho layout that I didn't have to lug around separately from my laptop. I would buy that yesterday.
That being said, the company was acquired by Apple and turned into the iPhone and iPod Touch. The keyboards were effectively museum pieces at that point. I wonder if the patent situation would allow for third parties to revisit the design. It'd be interesting to see what could be done with by borrowing ideas from the programmable keyboard community and mobile touch hardware.
They are checking all my boxes now. Outstanding.
It’s often the first thing people upgrade on a desktop (it’s much more impactful than a RAM and CPU upgrade over the same timeframe), but is rarely an option for laptop users.
Edit: Also the input deck and the ability to attach an egpu as well as upgrade to a newer egpu in the future are huge. This is a fantastic leap forward for Framework.
Jim Keller should make a Tenstorrent board. They already want to make desktop cards, and that would be a great way to market them.
https://morethanmoore.substack.com/p/interview-with-jim-kell...
If he quit Tenstorrent, that must have been very recent.
Not only would they get exposure, but they would love to see Framework-owning devs experimenting on Grayskull like its an RTX 3060.
Of course it would probably be linux only, but still...
Anyway, excited for a Framework version too! While I prefer AMD integrated graphics to Intel, NVidia dGPU would be even better, and even better still if it was upgradable. Are laptop GPUs still available on MXM cards?
Btw, this is excellent advice. Funny story, I have a FreeNAS device and the motherboard died and I thought "Oh my, I need to bring my ZFS volumes up on another machine, but I didn't have another machine with 6 SATA bays! I ended up having the drives all sitting out on the workbench connected a mainboard with 8 SATA ports so that I could create an archive of the data, and then got the mainboard fixed so I could re-assemble and re-use the FreeNAS but still it alerted me to the fact that I really needed a 6-8 drive cabinet if I wanted to do this again.
Hardware raid is legacy :)
Sure, for personal usage there is almost no usage for the HW RAID, but when you need to make sure what the system would always boot and it can't be serviced in hours/days - then you have almost no options for SW RAID.
No problem to put /boot on a raid1 on a small partition across all drives, so that any drive can boot, and no problem to even include a whole self-contained remotely accessible recovery os. It's a little bit more work to set up, but if you are professing a need for that, then a little extra setup is de rigueur. I remotely administered a ton of linux boxes in racks scattered across the US like that for years. Although I had out of band serial console access and could do full bare metal reinstall that way, I could also do it from any neighboring machine that was still running in the same rack if I had to, with a combination of network booting and/or booting from any one of the normal drives normal raid1 copies of the /boot partition.
Further remote-able fallback options that I never even had to use but could: Local hands just plucks a hot-swap drive from any of my other machines and pops it into the bad machine. All drives had the same bootable partition and all drives are redundant and so they could yank literally any one from the wall of server fronts. Or, better, local hands just plugs in a thumb drive and I take care of the rest. Thumb drive is already sitting there for that purpose, or they could make a new one from a download. But with 8 to 24 hot-swap drives per machine, meaning 8-24 copies of /boot, I never even once needed local hands to so much as plug in a thumb drive.
There is just no problem at all with sw raid. It only provides options, not remove them.
Did you even read my comment? It's quite clear what your environment was in the data-centers, with spares and remote hands.
Mine wasn't and then I say three months I don't kid or jest.
> No problem to put /boot on a raid1 on a small partition across all drives
This is exactly the problem. If the drive isn't totally dead (like it doesn't even respond to IDENT) then there is a chance what the BIOS/UEFI would try to boot from it and even succeed in that (ie would load the MBR/boot app) and then there is no way to alter the boot process at this point. HW RAID card provides a single boot point and handle the failing drives by itself, never exposing those shenanigans to the upper level.
Like sure, you are happy with your setup, you never had a bad experience with it, you always had OOB management and remote hands - but it doesn't means what it a silver bullet working 100% of times for everyone.
Yes, I've seen systems with SW/fake RAID failed to boot because the boot process failed after selecting a half-dead drive as a boot device, with my own eyes. Thankfully I was geographically close to them, not 5000km away.
Yes, I serviced and prepared systems for the 5000km away divisions and they are really serviced only a couple of months in a year, all other time you need an extremely urgent reasons why do you need to a rent a heavy 'copter to go there. No, there is no remote-hands there. The maximum point of IT-competency there is raking bills with satellite Internet.
It’s probably time for me to figure out converting over to software raid.
Thanks for the nudge.
I bought four cheap SATA-USB3 adapters, plugged them into two USB3 hubs, which I then plugged into the two USB3 ports of a Raspberry Pi 4, and arranged it all quite precariously in a small cardboard box that I cut holes into for airflow. Performance was terrible, of course, but it worked well enough until I could build a proper new NAS box.
With generic software raid (mdadm), even if you only had a single usb port and a single internal drive, you could image all the drives one at a time and then access the array of images on the single big drive. (not uncommon since usually time has passed by the time something fails)
It also goes the other way if you needed it to. Say a single array member was 4T but you only have a bunch of 1T drives, no problem, you can assemble 4 1T drives into a 4T container to hold the 4T image, and then use that image as an aray member itself.
Even if you don't have any loose external drives, you could even do it all via network shares with pieces residing on all of your other family members laptops and desktops, or every desk in an office, while they all still continue running windows and doing their normal jobs I mean.
Some of the possibilities are slow or fragile or both, so of course you don't set out to use 12 usb2.0 ports, but the point is essentially anything is possible, and you don't have to worry about predicting or planning for every possibility, you just don't have to care about how you'll recover the array in the future because it doesn't matter what form storage takes at that time, or what form you happen to have available. It would almost never make sense to do some things, but the point is that mdadm just doesn't care.
For a machine with only 2 or 4 internal drives where you want to use raid0 for max throughput, and don't want to rely on any special firmware support for booting raid0, just partition the drives so that /boot is a small raid1 across all the same drives, so that any of the drives could boot. Bonus, it automatically makes all the members of your main raid0 slightly smaller than the drive's nominal size, which means you can always fit them onto some other replacement drive later, even if the different manufacturers count bytes and formatting overhead differently.
I come from the days of sco unix on scsi hardware raid with full featured expensive cards and I do not miss it.
On the Asus, are both screens touch screens? Or is only the lower screen a touch screen? I had looked at 20:2 type touch screens to do a sort of "media bar" setup on my desktop but didn't find anything at the time I could use. I'm wondering how well such a setup might work.
If only I'd waited an extra month to order my new work equipment.
People will still want different screen resolutions, aspect ratios, keyboard layouts, etc. Now that AMD is available people will want particular CPU SKUs. It will never end.
I wish Framework luck, because they are targeting the pickiest userbase that exists.
But yeah, when I was suddenly in the market for a new laptop anyway, the extensive freedom to upgrade and configure this made it an extremely easy sell compared to anything else that would have been on my radar.
I suspect the choruses will be much quieter now. If I hadn't already landed on a Beelink GTR6 mini-PC desktop + MNT Reform laptop, I'd be considering this finally - indeed, one of many reasons I went Reform over Framework originally was because Framework was married to Intel. And frankly, 3:2 still makes Framework tempting despite my lack of need for it.
Definitely going Framework for my next laptop in a couple years... really tempted to get one sooner than later and pass down my M1 air to my daughter.
Too many platforms lock users into decisions they think are best for them, or worse, that they think are best for the company making said platform. It’s refreshing to be given not only options, but options I actually want.
But some people just like supporting the underdog.
There's a few instances where AMD GPU drivers even outshine their windows counterparts like in OpenGL performance. Intel's driver support is great as well, but their performance recently has not matched AMD, and their iGPUs don't compare to AMD's iGPUs.
Also for beefier laptops with discreet GPUs, intel up until very recently would need an NVIDIA card to get decent performance which would require NVIDIA drivers, which are notorious for complicating things on Linux. On the other hand AMD laptops with discreet AMD gpus already have their drivers built into the kernel which removes almost any potential complication.
Also there's personal preference, which in my case leans toward AMD because of their generally more open stance with their new technology, like raytracing and FSR which is contrasted by NVIDIAs typically closed off approach to the same things. Intel isn't as bad as NVIDIA in this department either but this is just personal opinion.
Lastly AMD CPUs are generally cheaper than intel, and in the last few generations performed better overall than intel.
TL:DR AMD on linux has great drivers with good support, the synergy between AMD's CPUs and GPUs and their combined APUs are very good, and personally I appreciate AMD's more open approach to technology like FSR, even if they aren't anywhere near perfect.
AMD still tends to have lower actual TDP than Intel, which is more efficient in a laptop and easier to cool in a desktop.
If you're going to use the integrated GPU, RDNA generally performs better in games.
My home linux machine is a ninth gen intel with Nvidia. Its technically a notebook, but more like a portable workstation. Its powerful, but battery life is terrible (<3) and you can hear the fans. It can game quite well however.
The reason that people want AMD CPUs is simple - they’re much better than what Intel is offering. We can see empirically how wide this gap is now since we have independent reviews of identical laptop platforms from Lenovo and HP’s ultrathin business laptops (the same segment as Framework):
HP EliteBook 840 G9 1280P vs HP EliteBook 845 G9 6950HS [1] - these are both respective flagship parts, and we can see the AMD version has both a +23% performance rating and a +23% better battery runtime. Note, that on the HP website currently, the same configuration AMD version is also >30% cheaper.
Lenovo ThinkPad T14s G3 6850U vs 1235U [2] - since the Intel version reviewed isn’t a top of the line model, it’s not fair to compare performance numbers, but even with the significantly lower TDP Intel part (15W vs 28W), the AMD version of the laptop ends up with an even bigger lead with a 35% better battery runtime. The AMD version is also 10% cheaper than their Intel counterparts from the Lenovo site pricing.
In both these cases, the AMD version wins significantly on processing power, battery efficiency and price. The 7040 should extend the lead on the latter, and that's not taking GPU performance into account [3], where the AMD Radeon 680M simply crushes the Intel Xe 96EU by an average of +88% in game performance, and +135% in synthetics (and again, the 7040’s RDNA3 GPU and Xilinx AI core will extend the lead even more for the upcoming generation).
[1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-EliteBook-840-G9-laptop-rev...
[2] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14s-G3-AMD-la...
[3] https://www.notebookcheck.com/Iris-Xe-G7-96EUs-vs-Radeon-680...
USB features depend ultimately on the laptop manufacturers' implementation (eg neither the HP or Lenovo models linked implement USB4 but they are in other models like the Lenovo Z13), but I haven't seen any that claim to have DP-alt support not be able to support it. As the Framework will have USB4 (and DP-alt and PCIe encapsulation are mandated by Microsoft for Windows 11 compatibility), I don't think that's a real worry for anyone.
(worth the down votes)
I really don’t need another notebook, but I like what Framework is doing, and I’ll be watching the reviews.
Already pre-ordered the AMD 13 but might hold off if it's available on the larger version.
Might I suggest engaging with QMK early so that we can avoid the usual manufacturer "hey can you merge this, we've shipped already and forgot to raise the PR until now"?
The height limitations of the 16" laptop are too low for low-profile discrete mechanical switches.
Uh... completely unrelated question: have you laid out any plans regarding module backcompatibility on future boards?
(I have no interest in big laptops. The 13 is probably the physically biggest laptop I've owned in a very long time.)
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Au...
* Is this an "egpu connected by a cable" situation, or something actually integrated into the laptop's body?
* What are realistic possibilities for how much gpu, and how much of a premium would it be over other laptop or desktop gpu's? Is this something you would be making, or third parties?
> The Framework Laptop 16 has an Expansion Bay system that contains both the cooling fans and an interface for high-power, high-speed PCIe peripherals like GPUs. Expansion Bay modules can extend in both thickness and depth to accomodate higher power requirements.
Looking into getting the AMD one for Linux! Has the Battery Life issues been fixed?
Congrats on the Launch. This might be Framework Laptop I finally could use as my daily driver for regular dev. work etc.
On the 16 the keyboard is a USB keyboard that could even be used standalone, without the laptop.
Specifically poor battery life (especially during standby when using the USB-A module) and not being able to use the brightness keys unless you disable the sensor?
[1]: https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06...
The 16 looks ideal, but I do not have the cash to buy another laptop.
Or that you'll partner with someone who does?
Do you plan providing more options for the display assembly in the future (I'm particularly interested into an option with a touchscreen)?
[1] https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
These days you can go even easier with fully installed plug-and-play Arcade1Up control panel replacements that are literally drop-in - MDF, sticks, buttons, encoders, and audio/display driver card are all built in. You just pull the stock control deck out, drop the $150 Intec deck in, and connect whatever PC/console/FPGA into the video in and USB controller outputs that it provides. You can build a cab around one out of plywood or just grab a random Arcade1Up on sale somewhere.
[0] https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case [1] https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard
I also looked at TB4 disk enclosures, but the bandwidth was overkill for spinning rust hard disks. There's a lot you can do with 4 USB-C/TB4 ports. I also have a Coral USB stick connected for frigate.video inference and a 2.5Gbps USB NIC (waiting for better thunderbolt 10Gbps NICs to become available). One fun convergence is when I want a keyboard / display / mouse I can plug the mainboard server into the same thunderbolt dock I use for my laptop peripherals.
[1] https://sabrent.com/products/ds-sc5b
[2] https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/tree/main/Mec...
I also think it's important to not underestimate the flexibility and marketing aspects of the eGPU design they went with. Someone who has a laptop they use for playing games with a still fine CPU but outdated GPU might look at this and just buy the eGPU. Then when it comes time to upgrade the laptop itself they might be all-in on the value of an upgradable system.
The beauty of this is they don't have to choose. The GPU can be anything that communicates over Thunderbolt and fits in the physical module specs.
In other words, only the GPU modules that Framework chooses to make.
If the framework laptop grows in market size that there’s enough demand for it, then anyone could manufacture and sell those components, which is kind of the point.
I think it is pretty clear that Framework intends to allow you to buy the most barebones laptop you can. I mean they let you buy 0 of the little cartridge modules, I assume they won't force people to buy one of these PCIex8 modules.
With this in mind, trampling module vendors doesn't seem like a great idea. What's the point of creating an ecosystem if there's nobody around to participate?
New 16" Model:
https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16
New 13" Models with Intel 13th Gen and AMD 7000 series
https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-with-13th-gen-in...
But the linked Github repos for the (GPU) expansion bay and the input module are still private/dead. :/
And they support other stuff!
I wish the framework site was up, as I want to see what this specification looks like. If you look inside an Asus Zephyrus or whatever, the cooling setup needed to support such a thing in a thin laptop is mad. The 13", for instance, has a pancake sized 2D headspreader + liquid metal TIM, which very much goes against repairability. The 16" is a wall of heatpipes. I wonder how framework is addressing this.
EDIT: specification is here, but down at this moment: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
It is bulky though. Moreover, this bulk is not enough to keep the keyboard from getting really hot under load.
I've always loved laptop hardware, something about having all the power of a computer to go seems so freeing to me. forever I've been searching for the 'perfect machine' (granted perfect is relative to the time). ThinkPads were my favourite when IBM owned the brand, and since apple switched to intel nothing came close to the complete package offered by a MacBook.
Recently, I've fallen out of love with the hardware (but OSX is still amazing). Apple had made is so disadvantageous to dual boot Linux that it's not even worth trying, and their own operating system has laughably poor support for gaming. (I get that's not everyone's use case but I feel like it's because they haven't found the right genre of game for them, but that's another tangent, and I'm already rambling). The power of the M1 chip is so great, but what's the point of powerful hardware if you can't run the software you want. So now, after a decade of owning MacBook and loving every moment, I have the itch to find something else.
Framework is one option, but I've never held one, and frankly they look quite ugly/ cheap. My "perfect" device today would be if someone put the internals of the steam deck in an iPad Pro body, but why sell one device when you can sell 3.
[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...
I switched from a Surface Laptop 4 to a Framework 13 and don't miss much beyond the touchscreen, and only then for specific games.
The value for me is entirely inside of it. This work-owned MBP is more likely to be in a landfill in 2 years than in use. Not only will the Framework still be kicking by that point, but I'll still have a use for some of the parts that I'll have replaced in it (a display, a mainboard, and two of the expansion cards) too.
If Mac repairability improves, even with Apple kicking and screaming the whole way, and if Asahi keeps improving and Apple doesn't backtrack on allowing it to work without hassle, that gap narrows and we can just worry about how these feel compared to each other rather than what they're capable of, and I'd be more likely to consider a Mac. Until then I'd rather be on the Framework, if only because it's set up exactly how I want it to be and I know I'll be in its ecosystem for a while yet.
I wouldn't be so sure. If there are viable ways to recycle both the chassis and internals, the average Framework will probably outlast the revered old-school unibody design. It will certainly outlast anything with it's storage soldered-on.
If Framework keeps going, it might be a Theseus situation, but it'll probably be on its fourth or fifth mainboard and second battery in 6 years. TCO to me on the Framework and my employer for the Mac will be about the same.
The Macs will be nicer all around. They'll also more likely be literal garbage because of management policies.
I'm still happy with my 11th gen framework. Anybody who's looking into upgrading please consider re-using your mainboard. They have 3D printing schematics you can use to turn it into a mini desktop PC!: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard
The only downside is that's so many components, instead of upgrading, I'll probably buy a whole new one and donate the old one to friends or family. :)
Great work @nrp and team.
The only question I'm left with now, which Framework to get? Do I pre-order the AMD 7040, or do I wait for the new 16 so that I can get a GPU? I'm thinking about going the AMD route now, buying the dGPU option they have and using it as an eGPU when it becomes available, and then switching to the 16-inch chassis when I'm ready...
The 16" will provably perform better though, if you can wait.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-s-Radeon-780M-iGPU-beats-t...
It's not yet, but soon, hopefully.
Does anybody know why they do this country by country roll out? I'd be perfectly happy to order a US layout laptop but they don't allow me to place an order.
It's probably harder being a US company selling into each EU country than it is for an EU-based company to sell to the rest of the EU and also the US, too?
The alternative would be not selling directly to consumer, using some intermediary like Amazon or whatever.
Was very close to pulling the trigger on a new Thinkpad, but now I might hold off. I just wish you could get frameworks in the same finish, though I suppose with the chassis being open source its feasible that someone else will start selling those
Framework gives its modular laptops 13th-gen Intel CPUs and (finally) an AMD option
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/03/framework-gives-its-...
And is hardware the limiting thing here?
Not the terrible arm OSes?
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/02/lenovo-announces-the...
ARM is great in theory, but I don't see any SoC on the horizon that I would really crave. This includes Apple, as I am either stuck with OSX or (at best) have most of the interesting bits of the SoC nonfunctional in linux or Windows.
A bit bummed that they're offering a matte display option only now; I don't see it offered in the marketplace, but I assume it'll get there eventually, and the glossy screen is $179, which isn't too expensive an 'upgrade', assuming the matte screen ends up being priced similarly. The higher-capacity battery will come in handy, though I'll probably wait until the existing battery gets a bit older.
I'm not interested in a 16" laptop, but I really like the black keyboard area, though the two-tone black keyboard area with silver touchpad/wrist rest is kinda ugly. I wonder if Framework will eventually offer replacement input covers (for the 13") with different aesthetics. One thing I miss from my old Dell XPS13 is the soft-touch material on the input cover. One cool small detail on the 16" is they've dropped the built-in 3.5mm jack and added two more expansion card ports, with one of the options being a card with a 3.5mm jack. Really smart move there; satisfies both camps of people who want and don't want that jack.
I think the thing that is most encouraging is that it does seem like they're trying to settle into a yearly cadence for new mainboard releases, tracking the latest chipsets from Intel (and hopefully now from AMD too). I was a little worried that they wouldn't be able to keep up, since they're still a small-ish company. Certainly not going to buy the 13th-gen or new Ryzen boards this year, but it's good to know that, assuming the company continues to be successful, I should be able to upgrade in a couple years.
That is a strange review to conclude "I'm otherwise happy with it"
Many people like the 3:2 ratio and consider it a feature, including me. It's better for productivity tasks where vertical real-estate is valuable.
Normally this would annoy me a bit, but my 11th-gen has always had a bit of annoying line noise coming over the headphone jack anyway, so being able to break the whole of that out into USB is actually a compromise I'm more than willing to make. (Also I lol'd IRL at the riff on "courage.") But then again, my hot take on phones for a while has been that I'd rather have two USB ports than one headphone jack, so this is pretty firmly in line with that.
> I think the thing that is most encouraging is that it does seem like they're trying to settle into a yearly cadence for new mainboard releases, tracking the latest chipsets from Intel (and hopefully now from AMD too). I was a little worried that they wouldn't be able to keep up, since they're still a small-ish company. Certainly not going to buy the 13th-gen or new Ryzen boards this year, but it's good to know that, assuming the company continues to be successful, I should be able to upgrade in a couple years.
My guess is that would actually be less of a problem in this context, given that the the form factor is stable from year to year and they can just ship upgrades for individual components instead of making whole new devices on an annual basis.
tl;dr: A 16" laptop with modular dedicated graphics (PCIe x8 either v4 or v5 with fans on the module), expansion bay cards (dual m.s SSDs), a new 'input system' with multiple keyboards in multiple languages and optional RGB lighting as well as support for numpads and secondary displays. Target launch is 'late 2023'.
Personally, looking at the 16...it's just a 'You were supposed to be the chosen one.' gif.
Damn near everything is proprietary, even if they were to open source it, they have basically created their own new standards for everything from the GPU to the new RGB modules that seem like insane distractions. Also those trackpad spacers are a solution but yikes that looks like trash.
All I see is SKU overload and inventory problems all while they are distracted with solving RGB for some wild reason.
Reminded me of https://xkcd.com/927/
If we’re going from 2 open standards to 3 that seems unnecessary. If we’re going from 0 open standards to 1 that seems like a huge step forward.
Like, this isn't a standard at all, it's just open for Framework to gain from. It reminds me of Google's Project Ara but for the wrong reasons.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/23/23652967/framework-laptop...
NVidia hasn't made MXM compatible GPUs for at least 5 years.
This includes cooling, so a small GPU could have smaller heatsinks and a beefy GPU could have huge heatsinks.
And if you don't want the GPU and the associated power draw plus the size and weight of the heatsinks, you can swap it for another module if you don't want to game on the go.
As they said in their presentation, it's not just for GPUs. You could have a supplemental battery. They will offer a storage expansion that gives you more M.2 slots. Hypothetically you could even just make a module that lets you fit a desktop GPU on the back, if you provided external power.
I know what some may be thinking, "just rebind the keys in software". But I also want the labels on my keys to not lie to me, and there is probably a risk of some software not respecting your custom keymap, too.
This is my biggest gripe with non-Apple laptops and one of a few reasons why I'm stubbornly using an old Macbook.
As for Emacs on Mac, I was forever closing the window instead of cutting since ALT and Command are in the wrong order (again for me). I now use an external keyboard which helps.
I guess my rant is more of a wish for Framework or some other manufacturer to offer this kind of layout, without needing a software solution like xmodmap. The moment Framework sells keyboards with modifier keys in the "correct" spot is the moment I'm ditching my Macbook.
https://community.frame.work/t/framework-and-open-source/107...
and the firmware is open source https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController)
and https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-layout-in...
I never did find the post I was thinking of (EDIT: Maybe this one: https://community.frame.work/t/a-qmk-configurable-keyboard/2...)
Switch to vi? :)
Do we have an option to add a keyboard with a Trackpoint?
But I guess theoretically someone could design one (╯°□°）╯ ┻┻ they are releasing hardware and software interface docs on github.
First time they've put a product out that matches my requirement: large screen, decent GPU, AMD CPU.
But argh ... no numpad, so no can use Blender on it :(
[EDIT]: aha, but I read:
Input Module system
When starting the design of a larger screen laptop, one of the key questions was: Numpad, or no numpad? After performing some market research, we found out there is almost exactly a 50/50 split between people who love and need numpads and people who hate them. We used this as an opportunity to not only let you pick your preference there, but also completely customize the input experience.
Very nice
TBH I am kind of shocked Framework picked up the AMD 7040 series so quickly. Usually small manufacturers are stuck with older gens.
Starfighter doesn’t have the proven “longevity” and true commitment to mission that Framework has had time to demonstrate, now through its second major release.
That all said, Starfighter looks like it has some really cool features between open source boot firmware, removeable camera and Wi-Fi kill switch.
If you want a better or more libre Linux laptop right now, get a Starfighter. If you want a laptop with more hardware hackability and replacement options, at the expense of libre/privacy features, battery life, supported Linux options, and high-end performance, Framework's an option.
I'm happy with my current laptop but at some point I'm going to need a new one so it feels great that there are so many amazing options out there. I just hope that at some point when I need that new laptop I'll be able to order one within a few weeks and my language on the keyboard.
But stickers are not a viable solution. Even though I've been typing on keyboards since the 80s, and placed in top 10 on typeracer ;) I still want actual keys and not stickers that will be worn out within months.
And delivery in "Q3" is also not a good situation. That means people who are buying these already have a laptop that works. I generally don't want to own that many devices that I don't use.
So I'm really looking forward to a time when framework laptops are treated just like any other Dell or Lenovo.
Given that laptops have physical size constraints and a 100 watt hour battery max because of that stupid FAA rule (and mfgs don’t want to try to explain that they’ve made a laptop that you can’t technically take on a plane, even though mall cop TSA guards very likely wouldn’t catch it), there’s only so much heat you can dissipate with laptop heat sinks (around 200 watts for the latest and greatest cooling solutions, a lot less for thin and lights), so performance per watt is what laptop perf is all about. Intel 12th gen used to be better than AMD 6xxx in single-thread until it rapidly overheated and started throttling, but the 7xxx stuff matches or beats 13th gen Intel on single-thread. For multi-thread, the best current Intel designs are 8 fast cores and 16 Atom cores. The AMD 7945HX is 16 fast cores. Combined with the difficulty in scheduling on asymmetric cores (Win11 does a decent job and is aware of this but it’s not perfect), 16 real cores usually wins for tasks that require real horsepower. The Intel solution is decent for handling many small background tasks (chrome tabs, running Spotify, Slack, etc) but there’s still a lot of context switching happening.
The 7000 series's advantage is now everything else: IO, the GPU, faster memory and such.
I dont even count the 7945HX as a laptop CPU though. That is a $2K+ desktop replacement, complete with the same hot idling the desktop chips have.
But if you schedule most things to the E cores with ProcessLasso/Aniancy, I think you can squeeze much more out of them.
You probably want the AMD version.
The bigger question is whether it can run stable diffusion quickly. And if you dont know what I am talking about, I encourage you to check out the InvokeAI infinite canvas or the Stable Diffusion Photoshop plugin... its revolutionary.
Pretty much anything from the last decade could handle "basic photo editing" from consumer cameras.
It's been a revelation having 64gb in my Macbook, I never want to go back.
Even the Intel 13" can be configured and ordered with a max 64GB DDR4 RAM for a total of $240, so am sure that the 16" would be configurable with at least that much.
AMD can be configure for 64GB DDR5 for $320.
Again, that is total $240 for 64GB RAM. Apple charges $800 to upgrade from 16GB to 64GB.
RAM can also be purchased separately from the marketplace[0], or from a retailer of your choice, if cheaper.
It is small enough to carry around but still "full-size". No numeric keypad but I don't really need one.
So if I needed a laptop I imagine I would get one which can flip to just the display in a tent-mode and then I would carry my keyboard separately. I never liked any laptop keyboard much. I could move and position this keyboard optimally which you can not do with a fixed laptop keyboard.
Here's a link to their website.
https://consumer.huawei.com/en/accessories/ultrathin-keyboar...
This year I got 16" thinkpad P4, and suprised to see how much more comfortable it is for me than my 15" Extreme X1, especially given that it weights about the same (1.86kg)
This model seems to have the traditional top-mounted screen, leaving space in the back, but it is empty. Seems in the rush to copy Apple over the last decade, this knowledge was forgotten. That's a shame. Personally, I'd like all those ports/cables (minus two USB) in the back and off my desk.
Festival and concert tickets are frequently done this way and the queue renege rate lets you model how many you would have lost if your site failed to load and at what duration.
Don't have time to check now with the site being so slow but will do later. Good to see the amount of attention this receives though.
Also, DDR4 only which is significantly slower than the DDR5 and LPDDR5 capabilities of the CPU.
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spoken-langua...
Is there an upgrade path from the current Framework to the 16 inch chassis or will you have to buy an entirely new laptop?
- I would love an option to have upwards firing speakers where flex/numpad space goes instead (one on each side).
- please improve the bass in the speakers. according to notebookcheck's review, framework speakers have poor/near 0 bass output.
- please offer a 4k screen option on the 16". 1440p-ish screens with DPI scaling hackery is no fun and often leads to blurry UIs.
But I already bought an Intel 12th gen framework and can't justify an upgrade (even the DIY option) yet.
now give me a keyboard with normal-sized arrow keys, and I will order one
i might have said before that i regret getting the framework, i might think about upgrading my mainboard and battery if it turns out to be working well. key word "maybe"...
Who owns a stake in their company...Yiiiikes.
Not that I can verify it because the Linus Tech Tips channel is still banned.
So this is a very uncharitable take. There's plenty of things to cringe or criticize LTT for- but this just isn't it
My critique was on Framework not disclosing themselves that their quote is from someone with a stake in their product now.
If you buy a McDonald's share you need to update your Google Maps review of the one in your old neighborhood from 10 years ago to disclose that you are part owner?
Your initial post was a vague enough comment that it could easily be taken to be criticizing LTT for giving a "glowing review" as "someone who invested in the product... yikes" etc etc, not just Framework not putting a disclosure. The latter is something I don't actually disagree with. Had your post had that clarity then I doubt we'd have had a disagreement at all
That said, I think the fact that the review occurred prior to the investment make even that disclosure unnecessary.