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Comment by freemanon | Hacker News Reader

US companies have been doing the same thing all over the world. Outside the west, everyone can see the hypocrisy. Ban it by all means, but you will become just like China: a state that censors information and speech from its citizens because the government is scared of it.

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Countries outside the US are free to ban US-owned platforms, and many countries do. It's not hypocrisy.

One of the CCP's goal is to destabilize the Western Liberal order. This is, of course, bad for the West. It's not unreasonable to take actions to prevent this.

I really don't think the west needs any help destabilizing itself. I wouldn't really worry even if we fuck ourselves politically, as long as the US military continues to playing in an entire other league and the ever-present threat of either side escalating to nuclear weapons out of desperation there's not a whole lot of realistic risk.

Which leads us to the very uncomfortable fact, we want to ban TikTok for the same reason they ban the likes of Facebook, Google etc - because governments (including ours) uses it for citizen data-mining and mass crowd control.

We know how dangerous TikTok is in their hands because we know how valuable Facebook, Google etc is in ours.

Except for the crucial fact that unlike China US law protects US companies from state interference.

The EU for example fines US tech companies left and right and enforced EU data privacy law and US companies pay up or comply. The dispute with China and US tech companies was never about privacy but about censorship (censoring what the state tells you to), there is no such dispute between tiktok and the US gov.

The NSA has proven repeatedly for decades that those laws are worth zero, they do not apply to the NSA. Edward Snowden proved that. All US tech companies give up their data on users willingly or unwillingly.

You're not wrong and if that is good enough to ban US companies in China then so be it, it is their right as is the US and tiktok. Are you expecting the US to allow tiktok to save face or something?

No I just hate the hypocrisy, that's all. I would much prefer the US Government just come right out and say we use social media to monitor our citizens and we don't want China to have access to that same data. Pretending like it's unique to them is silly and makes me not respect them.

You can make that false claim and make a liar out of your own self but the facts are it doesn't even matter if the US spies on its own people or not, it won't change the fact that americans don't want China to also have critical data that can be used against them as a country.

We really need a term for silly people that jealous-hate the US lol

False claim?

Somebody didn't listen to Edward Snowden..

The question is whether what you care about is the order's power or the order's values

If you care more about the values, it makes no sense to drop the values to retain the power

If you don't have the power to protect the values, what difference does it make?

> but you will become just like China: a state that censors information and speech from its citizens because the government is scared of it.

There are several legit arguments against banning, but this isn't one one of them. Banning Tiktok is not censoring information and speech, let alone doing it because of fear. If it were, then they'd also ban all of the numerous other methods by which people can talk to each other.

This isn’t a free speech issue.

This is an enemy foreign government collecting information on US citizens.

So to be consistent here, every country outside the US should ban all software originating in the US that collects user information.

If the answer is yes then by all means, but I think it makes for atrocious foreign policy relations.

Well, there's definitely a strong argument that none of the data of EU residents can be processed in China or under Chinese jurisdiction, based on previous court rulings.

The EU has GDPR.

The US has refused to consider similar legislation but that would be a way to keep TikTok and limit data collection on US citizens and require it stay in the USA.

That argument doesn’t make sense as it assumes the governments of the other countries are equally at odds as China is with the US.

Western Europe and US are generally wanting each other to succeed as friends and allies.

China wants the us market but also wants the US to be weaker and not pose an example as a democracy.

It also assumes a lot about level government control in each country that is highly dissimilar.

This is a short summary of the Schrems II decision, yes.

Then we should set strict laws about what kinds of data apps can harvest from their users and hold all of them responsible, not just the ones from scary china.

It targets all foreign adversaries.

It is not the data collection but where the data is sent and how it is used. You cannot enforce US laws in China but in the US you can. If it was an EU company, relations are good enough to where US companies are being fined and paying billions to the EU with the understanding that similar free trade regulations can happen unlike with hostile China

This is still regulations the US can put in. The data has to be sent from the US.

But can be sent to china or im a recent case accessed by china dictated employees where they tracked down a US journalist using tiktok collected data.

> enemy

seems like the characterization is doing all the work for you

Why are they our enemy? They are our most important trading partner.

Are you saying there is some speech allowed on tiktok but banned elsewhere?

Outside the US there are a lot of envious people that scream hypocrisy and act anti-US at every opportunity so what you're saying isn't surprising. Americans shouldn't care what "the world" thinks when it comes to trade policy.

Personally I couldn't care less if the US is like or not like China. Xi's regime is very anti-us and any state controlled companies can get bent.

The nerve on some people. They want you to apologize for banning a service controlled by the CCP which is talking about actual war against the US.

China bans platforms because they give access to information that embarrasses those in power. The US, here, is planning to ban a platform because it's a propaganda vector, and because its popularity has gotten to a point where we - as a society - at a serious risk of propaganda campaigns. All the information on TikTok is still available elsewhere - but we mitigate the opportunity for the Chinese Communist Party to mold what information is serviced to our constituents, and how that information is shaped.

I just don't think those two are the same.

>US companies have been doing the same thing all over the world. Outside the west, everyone can see the hypocrisy

It is not necessarily hypocrisy. I haven't paid too much attention, but does the US say China banning Facebook or Google is anti free speech?

If not, then the US is not being hypocritical. Perhaps, double standards or something like that is more of what you were looking for?

>Ban it by all means, but you will become just like China

China builds roads. If the US builds roads it will become just like China.

>a state that censors information and speech from its citizens because the government is scared of it.

You think Europe is doing this when they banned RT, right?

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