"..what Apple is doing to something which should allow you to work is just atrocious.."
Anyone know what his specific issues are?
Anyone know what his specific issues are?
(Disclaimer: Apple fan/user since 1985.)
This is obviously where open source is superior. Apple probably can’t justify cleaning this up in macOS, but you can just go in and make it easier on on Linux if you have the knowledge and time.
That said, I agree that the macOS implementation has issues. It’s tricky though, because if they make it as simple as confirm/deny dialogs, you’ve set users up to quickly succumb to “yes-click syndrome” which is likely why Apple went with the “flip a switch in a preference pane” design for some permissions instead.
There’s also systems like Arch’s AUR which is quite popular and more likely (if still unlikely) to carry malware, to the point that the Arch Wiki warns that use of AUR is at the user’s own risk.
Plus, many people are going to need to use proprietary software, which is always an unknown and likely to act badly in any number of ways. A lot of such software is Electron-based to boot, and devs are notorious for using ancient (and vulnerable) Electron versions.
Who does this benefit? I can think of two groups of people. 1. Commercial software vendors who want more Linux users to install their proprietary software. 2. 'Transplants', new Linux users who are already accustomed to the Windows/MacOS style of wantonly installing proprietary third party software they downloaded off random corners of the net, and don't want or know to change their habits.
The value proposition for experienced linux users who don't do that sort of thing in the first place is next to nil. The only applications that might benefit from such sandboxing are applications like browsers, which have large attack surfaces and might be compromised while browsing the net. But even this is mostly theoretical, not a realistic day-to-day concern for typical linux desktop users.
You are jumping to conclusions here. RCEs are probably more common than you think, and I'd prefer anything that interacts with the Internet to be sandboxed.
Flatpak allows me to easily sandbox Steam games. It provides an easy target to tell user to test against to eliminate distro-specific issues. It allows to run glibc-only software on distributions such as Alpine. It allows me to have multiple versions of a program installed concurrently. It prevents programs from cluttering my home directory, and sandboxing gives me extra peace of mind. As a non-root user, I can also install flatpaks. Ostree also usually makes updates more efficient.
If you use a couple flatpak apps, they are available regardless of your distribution. That helps when working on multiple different distributions.
Use an old-ish debian but need a feature from the latest unstable software ABC? Install ABC as a flatpak, and do not compromise the stability of the base system by enabling all sorts of external, unstable sources.
If you can run the "beep" command, you can also edit the user's environment and from their easily escalate to root anyway. In modern desktop linux, the user is almost always the admin as well, a single person using their personal computer, so getting root is merely a matter of waiting until the next time that user uses sudo/etc. Windows tries to mitigate this sort of attack using secure UAC prompts that are apparently difficult for attackers to emulate, or so I've been lead to believe. But common desktop Linux distros don't require anything like that. Instead, the user has to be cognizant of such possibilities and not run programs from people and organizations they don't trust.
Do use Linux on the desktop and be happy if it makes you happy, but don’t smugly assume you’re immune to the outside pressures in today’s world that are causing Apple to institute basic UI security measures on macOS. This isn’t a walled garden issue, it’s “make sure the user knows this binary is doing something that allows it to be a keylogger if the developer is so inclined.”
Some distros like RHEL already bundle apps with profiles that make sure the app can only do what it's supposed to do.
Also it is totally not fit for the "ask user for permission" model.
Like, stock RedHat does too, it just took a ton of effort (and bugs) to get there.
But then it is complex problem so its no wonder that the tools to do it are complex too
I wouldn't actually mind android-like permission model for out-of-distro packages (snap/appimage/etc.), maybe a bit expanded so I could say set this this and that folder for the "graphics editng app", and maybe save that as a profile to apply to some other similar app to ease on repetition/alert fatigue.
With maybe a layer to abstract some operations to not be just "allow this(remember choice)". Like file opening, if app calls to open a file I "just" want DM/WM specific open dialogue, with app/container name in the title and select the file to open.
Same for editing, I'd want to be able to just get dialogue "open file for editing", with app name and the permission to edit said file saved for the duration of the session so app doesn't need to re-ask me every time it saves the file.
why would you? that's the package maintainers job. each of these dependency also has a maintainer, so by definition all dependencies have a provenance that is as good as the package you are installing.
this is not npm where anyone can upload something and you have to check the provenance of each yourself
Sure, it's better than closed source, because at least you have the possibility to check all this. In practice though, we outsource this responsibility to the package maintainer of the package system we use.
not true, for years there are efforts in various distributions to make package builds reproducible. there are ways to build a package from source that allows you to get the same results and verify it.
we outsource this responsibility to the package maintainer
which is the point. i trust the package maintainers to do a better job at that than myself.
People often just drop the word “sandbox” and say “applications are sandboxed” and that that means that they're safe but it's really not that simple in practice. What often happens is that such applications still need to communicate over some socket with some server that was never designed for such a sandbox, say PulseAudio, and in many cases can then simply instruct the outer daemon to do whatever they want with full permission, either by design, or by oversight since the no one who wrote the outer daemon thought about it at the time since they were never designed for that purpose.
This is why there's a push to do as much as feasibly possible in userland in both macOS and Linux, so even when a bad actor tries to route through system components the blast radius is limited. Realistically, they should be sandboxed too — an audio daemon for instance has no business directly accessing storage or network facilities for example.
What I'm about to say may seem wrong, stupid, or crazy at first. I think permissions often belong in the GUI. Applications would get no access to the file system directly, but they could use an API in the gui to open files - only files that are granted access by the user, often by selection in a File->Open dialog or other direct user interaction. By putting the granting of access in the GUI toolkit, we can run untrusted apps natively with no OS permissions.
Maybe not directly in the GUI, but something like that. Trust the user but not the app.
To the extent that it is the OS's job, you don't have a computer anymore. You have an appliance. Sometimes that's OK; I don't complain because I can't run Doom on my dishwasher. But let's be clear about what is a general-purpose personal computer, and what is not.
In my opinion, that depends on the existence of an escape hatch. If it's like iOS where there effectively is none, sure, but if it's like macOS where SIP, Gatekeeper, etc can be temporarily disabled to make changes and then re-enabled or disabled entirely it's a different story.
Last year you might have heard a court case talking about a nurse who killed a woman by accidentally giving her the wrong medication. She took responsibility but talked at length about how the system in place encourages workers to blindly click yes on alerts about medication because there are many of them. The training they got was basically “just click yes three* times” (* I don’t remember the actual number but three seems right).
One of those warnings could have saved a life had she read it, but she had been clicking yes many times a day every day for a long time and she no longer even saw the banner for what it was.
Interesting stuff from a UI/UX perspective.
Regardless, I'd still like the final say in making that decision, otherwise it's not really my computer anymore, is it.
If a systemwide "disable all safeguards, give all programs access to everything all the time" switch exists, the level of friction encountered when accessing it should be very high to help deter social engineering attacks. It's a one-time action so the annoyance level of that friction is negligible, since those using it will only need to do so on clean installs.
I interpreted both of their comments as claiming that the direction MacOS is taking is a poor fit for those who still get value from powerful, general-purpose computers (myself very much included! I occasionally have the misfortune of using Macs, but am much much happier on systems where I can dig as deep into its layers as I need to solve my problems or scratch my itches)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=35219381
[2] Though I do think it's a minor tragedy that the increasing amount of guardrails has narrowed the opportunity for an inquisitive youngster to explore his computer's internals
How many "average" users you know who use sudo? At some point, the software needs to acknowledge users who are saying "I know what I'm doing and the risks, just let me do it" i.e. sudo.
Do you feel the same way about Windows finally starting to take security seriously back in the mid 2000s?
This especially holds for complex systems with multiple stakeholders, like OSes.
You always to be advocating for ossification to avoid breaking apps which are no longer ok under an evolved threat model.
Finally, you didn’t actually answer the question I asked. It’s all very well and good to say how things should be, but people have to face the world as it actually is instead.
If applications can edit arbitrary files on the system it's already game over. I have no idea why people focus so much on “keylogging” as the supposed super important and dangerous thing.
If one run any malware with the full file edit permissions of one's user account at that point in theory the only solution is erase not only the hard drive, but also every other drive on any other system one's user account has access to or at least in sofar those do not have some logging for connexions in some way to see who connected that cannot be edited by the permissions one has on that system. Of course if one has root on one's own system nothing on that system can be trusted any more from that point. The malware could in theory have edited the firmware at that point to hide any checks one could do with a recovery system on a portable drive, but that's all quite theoretical of course, but it's possible in theory.
Keylogging is such a strange thing to focus on in the face of being able to edit arbitrary files owned by the user.
The supposed threads of malicious applications keylogging and stealing your website passwords to worry about is rather strange when such an application can edit the files on your system such that you're starting a modified version of a web browser they injected with whatever code they want to do the same. In fact, this is probably easier to do than try to write some kind of a.i. that filters what it thinks are “password keypresses” opposed to altering the code of the web browser such that it simply sends whatever is being put into a field marked as “password” on a website.
It's a moral panic boogeyman that has no actual implications for actual real life security. Like quite a bit of “security” talk these days. Much of it comes down to the “door in your room” analogy where “security experts” talk about putting a big door in the middle of one's living room with an impenetrable lock on the idea of kindly asking criminals to only go through that door to steal things. In reality they'll just walk around it, and now one has an inconvenient door in the middle of one's living room.
But at any rate, Wayland is completely optional. You can keep running X and nobody will stop you. People will keep running X without issue for a very long time. This is very different from what the Apple world is like.
Many of the things one can at least ask permissions for as I read it on the Apple system are actually purposefully simply not available due to similar concerns.
Many of the leading Wayland developers believe in this. The Enlightenment lead developer for instance does not believe a programmatic way to make screenshots or listen to keypresses should ever exist. I had some debates with him about this and he believes the risks are too high as well as revealing that he seemed to believe that streaming videogames did not work by way of a third party tool that captures the screen contents, but that each video game had this functionality built in, which is certainly not the case and that he believes this might explain his reluctance for such an a.p.i. to facilitate this.
> But at any rate, Wayland is completely optional. You can keep running X and nobody will stop you. People will keep running X without issue for a very long time. This is very different from what the Apple world is like.
Opinions are divided on that matter. The reality is that many of the developers of Xorg have abandoned in in lieu of Wayland and many Wayland developers, many former Xorg developers are clear in their opinion that they see it as a replacement, not an alternative and eventually expect everyone to switch.
Whether that will happen is anyone's guess. They are often met with counter arguments that Xorg and the X11 protocol itself simply has features that many businesses and private individuals need for their lifelihood so there is going to be commercial incentive to pick up maintainership should they abandon it. They have also conceded heavily already on many of the features they initially said where either unneeded or a security risk when they realized the reality that many people outside of their bubble did use them. Libinput originally did not have any mouse acceleration settings on the argument that no one would want to turn it off or fine tune it to begin with, but now has it when they realized that unlike what they thought, demand for the ability to fine tune or turn off mouse acceleration is higher than they anticipated.
> Opinions are divided on that matter.
I feel like those holding the opposite opinion are pretty clearly wrong and it seems to be some kind of hubris. Fortunately their opinion is not binding.
> The reality is that many of the developers of Xorg have abandoned in in lieu of Wayland and many Wayland developers,
Not an issue. It doesn't need a lot of maintenance. It's "done". Source is available too. Just needs minimal effort to keep the lights on. As long as someone is interested in running it, as many will be, it will happen.
It's very much chasing a moving target of new graphics technology and many of the innovations made by Wayland have been ported to Xorg. The interesting thing is that screen tearing used to be a problem on Xorg but never was on Wayland but much of the technology responsible for that has now found it's way into Xorg to make it a thing of the past there too. Of course integration with new hardware drivers is also required.
It's entirely possible it will continue to be maintained that way, or that the Wayland philosophy will finally be broken and these things will be added once they realize there is a great enough demand, but these are all possibilities, not certainties.
Rasterman is entitled to his opinion, but every production-ready Wayland server ("compositor") implements an extension to do screenshots:
* Weston: https://wayland.app/protocols/weston-screenshooter
* Sway and friends: https://wayland.app/protocols/wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1
* KDE: https://wayland.app/protocols/kde-zkde-screencast-unstable-v1
It’s an improvement for users because it means that not all random applications and programs that run can act as keyloggers. It’s optimising for the common use case (random people running random software and being very annoyed if they get ransomed) against the rare case. It’s the same thing with debuggers and attaching to other processes. In the end it is a good thing to not be able to do that without explicit authorisation.
> So I had a very expensive laptop and the OS didn't let me use it freely.
It does not prevent you from doing it. It added some friction, sure, and you can find that this friction is unacceptable (and changing OS every now and then is a good idea in general anyway). But from a fundamental perspective the functionality is still there. The OS still lets you do this.
> I created the best looking/most usable desktop experience MacOS will never have.
It is great that you have both the ability and the time to do this. I’ll look into it for my Linux boxes.
However, my experience is that it’s never actually “the most beautiful/user-friendly/consistent/polished” (things we see all the time with new DEs). They all tend to fall apart with millions of corner cases and inconsistencies every time you get off the beaten path. In any case, good luck with your project.
It seems alongside security there appears to be a strong desire at Apple to make macos a walled garden like iOS devices. They've hamstrung mobile safari for years to ensure the app store doesn't have competition from web apps.
An example is the latest System Preferences. It's virtually unusable.
Source: Self after working on anti-theft software for macOS, for a few years now.
I can make a command line tool or a standalone Qt application right now without having sandboxing pop up at all.
Even for access that the OS protects the user from, as an app developer I rarely need to think about it. When I try and access a limited area it asks the user for me.
Source: self after working on lots of varied code bases from web dev to 3D libraries and standalone applications for over a decade.
For starters, the UI experience is terrible. You get a dialog telling you you can't install an app; close the dialog then you have to know to go to a certain Settings tab under Privacy & Security, and there will (hopefully) be some text that allows you to enable the app. This is a UI disaster. Maybe they do it so that non-technical users will give up in frustration.
Once MacOS decided that my official Oracle JRE was "untrusted", and I would get the bullshit dialog every time I started a Java process (note: I develop apps using the JVM). I had to google to learn some arcane CLI magic to disable the untrusted bits on my JRE files.
More recently, I couldn't get CIV 6 to run. Instead of telling you what to do, you get a "app is corrupted" dialog (maybe this was the fault of Steam). This required multiple enabling via the magic permissions tab. I mean, are Steam and Firaxis not "trusted developers".
All this pales in comparison to the pain when using my MOTU audio interface. Getting it to work was an enormous pain in the ass thanks to Apple security. And then MacOS would randomly decide to break things every 6-12 months, and getting it to work again requires discovering an arcane NVRAM reset procedure using magic key presses during reboot.
Does 'app from a trusted developer' mean something other than 'app from the app store, or from someone you've specifically allowlisted'?
They don’t necessarily need to be from the App Store, but they do need to be notarized.
If they’re not, the warning can be bypassed.
So why would it suddenly be a good idea to import this from iOS?
At least Apple managed to move all their settings from one paradigm to the next in one year. I’m looking forward to the improvements they make to the app in the future.
Everything seems to get sacrificed at the altar of Developer Comfort. Performance gets thrown under the bus so we can write everything in JavaScript. Platform-specific features get abandoned or neutered in a cross-platform framework so we only have to target one API. We ship gigs of Docker containers so we don’t have to get our software to work on all the customers’ computers.
This is just another example. Wouldn’t it be great if iOS apps and Mac applications converged on the same thing? Only a developer would want this.
Why would you ever want added cognitive complexity?
If things need to be different then sure. But if they can be unified in a way that works great for both then please do!
Honestly, with their tight integration, I don't even think of watchOS and iOS and macOS as being so separate. They're all just a kind of "appleOS" that gets applied to different form factors. So UX unification is ideal wherever it makes sense.
> and at least it’s consistent with iOS
What a huge win for Mac users.
And search works better than it used to as well. To me it's been entirely improvements.
And thanks to this peculiar way of thinking we also have several layers of UI inconsistencies in Windows, for example. Someone thought "let's unify everything" but, assuming this is a good idea at all, you really need a lot of work, planning, effort, and most of all imagination to make sure the final result is actually an improvement for the users of both mobile and desktop systems rather than being a mediocre one-size-fits-all solution.
This new thing violates much of Apple's own HIG, and despite running Ventura for half a year, I still find myself hunting for things that should be easy to find. Quick: where do you go to turn the volume menubar control on or off?
My response is similar for the other complaints I see here. I can ignore new features I don't like. I've got integration with my phone and watch that took zero effort. No need to waste time on drivers, etc. If I want to run Photoshop I can.
(I've used Macs since the original Mac Plus with one one-year Windows interlude. For servers I use Linux, which is obviously appropriate for that use.)
The latest update added "Stage Manager" or whatever, tried it out for an hour...didn't really like it and turned it off, it never gets in my way trying to force itself on my like Windows does with all of its anti-features.
People complain about system preferences but I use spotlight to find settings when I need them, which works great - and once a setting is set I rarely change it. I don't think I've touched the preferences "app" since I initially setup my mac studio. The moaning and groaning about how bad it is just seems so.....pointless to me.
This is exactly how I do it, and I also do it this way in Ubuntu. And in both OSes, I hide docks/apps.
There exist equivalents that have exactly that same functionality as described above. I don't know what GNOME uses, but KDE's krunner searches system settings, user files and applications, bookmarks, browser tabs, solves arithmetic and unit conversions, does spell checking, searches the web, searches active windows, applications and workspaces, etc.. It's configurable with many plugins available. I expect GNOME's system works similarly.
Have you considered that other people have usage requirements different from yours?
Of course there's not much reason to complain about System Settings if you never use it, but that's missing the point.
You could copy paste your comment to everyone here, "have you considered that other people use it differently".
That's not all the commenter said. "The moaning and groaning about how bad it is just seems so.....pointless to me."
If System Settings is fine for the commenter, that's great for the commenter. (Although "I virtually never use it" isn't exactly a great response to "It's virtually unusable" or a great defense of System Settings.) However, the commenter is criticizing other people for complaining about it, and that's not justified.
For seven years longer and with 20K more ports than Homebrew, and without leaving a mess on your system or munging permissions, so is MacPorts.
There's still some weird annoyances for me, though. For example, it's still intended for single-user mode only. The best solution I came up with was to create a separate user for Homebrew and then basically alias `brew` to `sudo -H -u homebrew brew`.
And generally, if you attempt to use a non-standard prefix, such as in your home directory, packages will have to be built from source. I understand why, but it sucks because this means when you need x86-only packages via Rosetta, you're stuck with the old `/usr/bin` prefix, unless you want to and can build from source.
Also, in general, maintaining multiple prefixes/architectures is annoying too. I wish the default command allowed me to just pass `--arch amd64/arm64` or something when installing packages
Goofy shit like this randomly happens, particularly after OS upgrades. I remember some crazy hell where I couldn't finish the OS install on a new Mac, because Apple decided that Apple IDs must be email addresses, and my ancient ID was not. Required a call to customer support.
And the "untrusted developer" shit always bites me in the ass every couple months or so... It is particularly painful when using pro audio interfaces, which will just suddenly stop working every now and then. It requires a magic key-press during a reboot to clear some kind of special RAM.
Most people are familiar with the iOS model already. It's rare to find Mac users who aren't.
The order is seemingly random. You can't reorder, pin favorites, or hide unwanted settings. Many things are buried deep in hierarchies.
Not to mention that iPhone Settings is based on a small, non-resizable window and a touch interface, neither of which are true of the Mac.
Familiar crap is still crap.
I think many of us watching Apple for the past two decades have seen the OS move slowly towards closed standards and tighter control instead of openness and functionality. Each time I boot my PowerBook G4 running Leopard for a nostalgia kick, I'm reminded of how great OS X once was.
But as Ken pointed out, they've been doing it over a long period of time, so it's OK (i.e., it's given us plenty of time to move to other alternatives).
It’s just that I still need macOS for iOS dev right now, but that might change in coming months ...
Personally I leave both on because even having used computer for 27 years at this point, I can still slip up and I’m still vulnerable to social engineering among other things, and so it’s nice to have something to help cover for those situations. It’s no cure-all, but it at least raises the bar for malware and such.
In the earlier Mac OS X era they used to be very open (and free) with their tools and actively encouraging.
It feels very backwards now. For example, Microsoft was really restrictive with its expensive tools at that time and gradually opened them up. It's like the two companies reversed positions. As a kid, I could never afford to buy pro dev tools, and while it's not as expensive currently, I think that's the way Apple is headed. It's not going to help more people get into programming.
if you watch this talk you can tell that gatekeeper is taking away your freedoms. they are trying to turn each and every binary on your machine into a walled garden.
https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/?time=1...
this will put apple in a superior position - the only company able to make a binary that can use every resource in the OS - and will put developers at a great disadvantage!
It seems like you have to buy software to do anything on macos more conveniently.
Why can't I write a script in python? or a gui script in python? it's the top language.
You can use say swift, but even with "oh we opened it up", it's really an apple-specific language, and it's compiled.
Yes you can get brew going, but that's not apple.
and ios - what a travesty. You don't own your phone. You can't access your filesystem. you have to ask permission to do anything (and they don't grant it for most things)
> Why can't I write a script in python? or a gui script in python? it's the top language.
You definitely don’t need to buy Python, it’s F/OSS and one command away.