A Tale of a Miserable Product Launch | Hacker News Reader

A Tale of a Miserable Product Launch

stangeek.com

103 pointsstangeek66 comments

This post could be considered rude but its in response to seeing your continual negative attitude about your competition's successes (oink).

real talk:

The continual disdain you show for those previous popular successes (ie your continued oink references) to me implies you should stop focusing on a social product since you clearly don't "get it". "it" being people, your market, society...

The reality is not that your unused inferior product is better than the competition if only people stopped rating burritos and started using your chat app.

The reality is that your app is inferior in an over-served market and has no niche to give it traction. Understanding this will help you succeed in the future.

I'm very sorry the joke on Oink didn't register with you, and that's ok. Oink is not a competitor and I doubt Kevin Rose gives a sh@t about what we think about his app, which is indeed very well designed if you're into rating burritos. Oops, did it again ;)

There's another angle on this that you haven't covered. Despite having big name founders who can easily get coverage, apps like Path and Oink all have something else in common. Design matters a lot these days, particularly when it comes to iPhone apps, and unfortunately it's something that your app is lacking in a big way. This is something that's immediate from the screenshots, and I'm sure would put any tech blogger off straight away.

Very true. But it still bothers me that a burrito / pork chops rating app gets so much success based on its good looks.

I can't disagree more strongly. Neither of those apps is successful because they look good. "Good looks" implies an exceptional attention to detail, a deep understanding of the medium, and a solid experience.

More often than not, a beautifully designed piece of software will be easy to use, intuitive, and full of surprises. It makes me want to install it because I _know_ that I'm in for a treat. And when I launch it, my suspicions are confirmed with an app that works exactly as expected without hassle or surprise. Good design is a side-effect of lovingly crafted code and a well-thought out process.

The bottleneck they overcome (that you don't) is that they get the user to download the app. Once a user has downloaded an app, it matters much less how much friction there is to start using it. It would take a lot to turn them away from using the app at that point.

I don't think they get success only because of good looks, but because they do something useful or fun. Between a dozen similarly useful apps, the ones that look good are the ones that will get coverage and be popular.

If your idea is truly as revolutionary and unique as you think, it could probably look like shit and still be popular.

Why do you care so much about an app that you're not competing with?

Fart apps were wildly successful too.

We don't really care, it was just an easy way to try to make people smile and upvote the article in HN.

Belittling others' successes is bad form and indicative of a a sense of entitlement and superiority.

Oink is interesting and beautiful, Kevin Rose is smart and decent. Your app is neither and you sound bitter. It is not surprising to an objective observer that you were ignored.

A little more humility might allow you to learn some lessons here.

Ok. Our joke might have been lost in translation - we actually think KR is very smart.

Don't overestimate their success too. Oink has gotten lots of downloads, but little revenue to show for it. Focus on your own battles, and don't think everyone out there is winning.

Its a psychological effect called Aesthetic-Usability effect (as noted in the book Universal Principles of Design). Given two equal equipment/software/things/etc, the user will perceive the more-aesthetic designs to be easier to use than its less-aesthetic counterparts.

This is because "beautiful" designs help fosters a positive attitude between the users and the product. This then translate to feeling of affection, loyalty, and patience in the product -- all of which are critical factors in long-term usability and overall success of a design.

Its a well documented cognitive/psychological phenomenon. "Design of Emotional Things" dedicated an entire chapter to this concept.

Nerds seem to think they can just slap a UI together and users will be blown away by the code's modularity and spectacular unit-test coverage. Devs who ignore Joel's iceberg principle are in for it, because normal people think if it looks crappy, it probably is crappy. Plus potential users probably had no idea what the heck this thing is even for. The more I look at this and think about it, the more flabbergasted I am that it was launched in this state.

You can get away with a less than stellar design if your app provides a lot of utility in an under-served niche. Group messaging is not an under-served niche

Guess the title was right, just that it wasn't a Miserable "Product Launch", but much more a "Miserable Product" Launch... I'm so sorry, but this is a typical case of development for its own sake - you don't need extensive product and market research, some simple hallway testing (i.e. Asking a non-geek: "Hey, do you get what we're trying to do? Do you think you could need it?") would have been enough to establish that this idea doesn't have AND traction and doesn't solve any major problems in a convincing way. Sorry for your investment, but this seems like your own fault, guys. But as they say: Expierience comes from failure, so insert coin and try again!

Very true! We actually tested the app with friends beforehand, and it was very well received when we took the time to explain what it was actually doing. So it's not that the idea itself is miserable, it's more the product (which looks crap), the message (which people don't get if you don't have the opportunity to explain it in person) and the general marketing. But as you say, we're going to insert coin and try again based on the very feedback the HN has provided to us :)

I still don't really understand the benefit of this over the native SMS app. On iPhones (and I imagine, other smartphones) reply all is available. And you can send pictures in the conversation. I'm pretty sure you can send map locations too, but I've never done it.

If there is no functional benefit to the app, it doesn't look nearly as nice, and my friends aren't hassling me to download it, why would I?

Well not everybody has got an iPhone. Our chat app works on any modern smartphone.

iMessage implements reply all indeed, but only if your friends are on iPhone too...

the Group MMS feature on the iPhone (reply all) works as of iOS4, before iMessage.

Yes, and it's not cross platform so of no use unless your friends are all on iPhone.

It replies via SMS or MMS to every phone number in the conversation, regardless of whether it is an iPhone or not. I can see your point about not having this capability on other smartphones, but why not build an android/bb app that does exactly that instead? (if it doesn't already exist)

Launch is not an event, it's a process. One of the apps that I wrote for fun, which I did not even try to market or promote randomly got picked up by a medium sized blog and brings a steady stream of visitors now.

Of course, it will be great if you can kick the ball rolling with a huge splash on major blogs, but most of the times that's not the case.

Sorry...to me this article is just HN bait to promote the app. Don't see any concrete learnings here that would serve as guidance to others.

Well it's half true. But if you read till the end, you'll see I was pretty open about this. And next week I'll post on HN to explain how this strategy yielded quite a lot of downloads in a short period of time ;)

So what you are saying is you have no issue with diluting the content quality of HN for your own short term gains? Not only that...you are also eager to show others how doing the same can help them and their product?

No. Read the comments on the blog post, you'll see most people are thankful for us sharing the experience. And if you can't make an opinion for yourself about what kind of lessons can be learnt from this story, it's absolutely fine.

Not getting covered by tech blogs that you dropped an unsolicited email to should not be considered a failed product launch. Well maybe it is in the sense if you are counting on front page of TechCrunch as your entire marketing effort. This seems like the kind of app that spreads virally, after all the whole point is that it works without the other person needing the app. I'd say just start using it with friends and see what happens?

Very good point. Not very many people want to be our friends though ;) More seriously, this is indeed the strategy we're using right now. It will take a long time, but this is what works indeed.

If he considers it a failed launch and then stops, it is a failed launch.

Though the failure then is that he didn't keep trying :-)

The fact is, that you created a product like other thousends of people, and this is not the biggest face palm for a product launch... everyone is enthusiastic about his product and expect it to have an enormous pitch. But like you a lot of people remain disappointed. Good luck.

Thanks!

I'm sorry but, this was 100% my first reaction:

Are those I's? L's? 1's? Roman number for 3? Especially since it contains an uppercase I next to two lowercase l's and then a lowercase l.

Maybe if you left the starting I as a lowercase i at least it'd be readable...

Very interesting feedback. So we should spell it illico ?

Look at your own iphone screenshots. Does it say IIIico or lllico? I'm not sure if it's important but given the phone font it's a no-go.

illico is definitely more readable than Illico.

Although the 4 straight lines next to each other are also difficult to read. Having a differently shaped letter in there would help readability (people may think it's spelled "ilico").

Also, "illico" seems to be quite an overloaded term if you search for it on google.

I think they're aiming at the wrong market. If my Facebook feed is anything to go by teenagers absolutely love new chat applications, but the reason they love them is because their friends introduce them. Although yes the requirement to register is a barrier to entry, it's a good one, it makes your users invested in pushing their friends into using it. You took away the element that makes these applications successful. Aim it at teenagers, provide an incentive to use it and then drop the sms thing, then you'll take off (if you're lucky!)

> Aim it at teenagers, provide an incentive to use it and then drop the sms thing

"Okay, I have an idea: CSI, with robots, in space."

"Okay, that's great! But... how about if they weren't robots, and it was in a regular Earth-bound police department?"

"So, you mean... CSI."

Seriously, now, if you remove every bit of what makes the application unique, then why should they be building that application any more? Why not build something that they do have a unique value proposition for instead?

If they want to build this then they should accept nobody will use it. They're complaining nobody uses it so I assumed they wanted people to use it.

What they describe is almost exactly GroupMe, circa 2010. Group chat app, uses SMS so it works on non-smart phones, no signup required--just text /add [number] to add someone to the group, and they're auto-joined.

Not to say it'll work for them, or that things haven't changed since 2010, (group chat market saturation, more smartphones) but it was a pretty good idea at one point.

We agree, but maybe we're wrong...

I think the reason for this story not being picked up is that the tech blog writers understand that there is no demand for such an app. 99% of the people don't care to sign up for a service like MSN in the old days and WhatsApp now, and everyone is on Facebook right?

Well if so they missed the point. With Illico you don't need to sign-up, and you don't need your friends to have the app installed. I agree it's less sexy than burrito rating apps though ;)

I, too, think the layout is lacking, as some here suggest, but the bigger issue is probably that the op relied on a handful of big tech blogs. Unless you have connections to them or already are a big name in the business, nobody will ever read your email or answer it or write about it in their blog.

This is drawn from personal experience with an online appointment scheduling software we offer. There are too many of those out there. Nobody really cares about the next one, even though it has nice features others don't.

A nice reminder that not every product can succeed (within a certain amount of time), and that infact most don't.

I do wonder what impact a better marketing strategy would have had - I'd have thought that taking advantage of the contacts from their previous success would have been the first thing to do.

They are definitely right about one thing though - general tips lines are swamped, it's now even more important that you network before you release. Unless, of course, you get a front-page spot on HN.

I think facebook did a great job with their Messenger app. Most people are on facebook already (so the no sign up sales pitch isn't very convincing), it's available on almost every smartphone (and not just a particular brand like Blackberry Messenger), most tablets and with every computer connected to the internet. Probably even on some TVs (?). It's a cheap substitute for text-messages. The app is really simple and looks good.

Competing against them is a waste of time.

Is there a way to contact you privately ? Your HN profile shows no fax number. ;) Something like an email address as feedback [at] illi.co would be useful.

partners [at] lollicode [dot] com will work :)

Personnellement, rien que le fait d'être français me décourage totalement à lancer la moindre « startup ».

Big bisou ;-)

Il n'est pas nécessaire d'être si défaitiste.

exactly :) (I'm french and launching a startup :-).

Yep. Des fois ça marche. Mais c'est sûr que c'est plus dur...

Faut dire, les startups, içi, ça fait un peu alien. Et encore, je dis içi... Depuis que j'ai émigré à Lyon, je n'espère même plus en voir près de moi...

Je vis au fin fond de la Champagne-Ardenne, et je dois avouer que ma passion (autodidacte) pour l'AJAX me rapporte pas des masses. C'est pas évident ni motivant de chercher du boulot sans disposer d'un BAC+5. Les boîtes qui fonctionnent comme 37signals ne courent pas les rues ici...

D'ailleurs si jamais y'a quelques lecteurs francophones d'HN dans le coin, qu'ils n'hésitent pas à me contacter (et plus si affinités ;-))

Il manque une fonctionnalité de messagerie privée à HN avec laquelle on pourrait envoyer un MP ou être contacté sans risque d'être spammé.

Il y a pas mal de lecteurs francophones sur HN. C'est à se demander si on ne devrait pas organiser une rencontre HN France un jour.

Personnellement je suis pour une rencontre (après à voir comment on peut faire ça, après tout nous sommes tous un poil occupés je pense).

Hop, juste pour rire : http://www.facebook.com/groups/285218378209365/

On va pouvoir appeler ça « A Tale of a Miserable Facebook Group Launch » haha.

Pas forcément si misérable, on est 5, peut faire un tarot.

je vais faire circuler! bonne idée

Oula... il faudrait créer un compte Facebook rien que pour s'inscrire là dedans ? ^^

Big bisou too ;)

Dans 10 ans tu regretteras n'avoir pas essaye?

swombat gave a talk on how to get on TechCrunch/Lifehacker/etc in one of the first HN London meetups. [1]

And I believe his first point was: follow up. I can't remember exactly what happened, but he basically emailed [TechCrunch] with a follow-up email after a period of silence, and the blogger got back to him with an "Oops, mea culpa, slipped my mind".

It's not clear from your post, but did you try just reaching out to them again? Maybe a blogger directly, instead of the tips@ mailbox which might be inundated with way too many emails...

[1] http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/java-jee/how-to-get-on-techc...

We haven't followed up, and I agree contacting a blogger in person is indeed what we should do. In between we figured out that being on the front page of HN (even for the wrong reasons) would at least make a bit of noise, help us get some ideas and feedback on the app (it looks crap, we got this) and refine our strategy for this project (or the next one).

Thank you for your feedback and stay tuned :)

Maybe they weren't excited because iMessage has reply all, and the tech press all use iPhones?

Very good point...

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