Hacker News Reader

Comment by throwayyy479087 | Hacker News Reader

I'm HN's resident Republican curmudgeon, but this is all squarely the fault of the Tories. They've over-optimized the economy to _only_ do what they're the best in the world at, the rest of the country be damned. They're out of touch with people in Manchester, with immigration sentiment in the Midlands, and with just how hated they are by the Scotts.

I really wish Labour would get it together, focus on something besides hating Israel, and end this nonsense. The UK used to have a bunch of competitive car, aircraft, and train manufacturing concerns - no more. This is a total failure of governance.

View on HN

I'm not a natural Labour voter, but they have an approximately 25 point lead at the moment - they're very much getting their act together. I'm not sure where the "hating Israel" thing comes from, that talking point is several years out of date now.

They aren't really getting their act together, they aren't doing much different to what they were doing before that poll lead. That lead is the result of the Conservatives having constant leadership turmoil and appointing unpopular people to the Cabinet. It's a consequence of ruling party dysfunction rather than Labour suddenly improving.

What has Labour done to suggest they hate Israel?

Looks like they recently made up: "UK Labour Party is pro-Israel again, says chair of its visiting friendship group"

"After antisemitism drove Jews away in Corbyn era, MP Steve McCabe says opposition party has returned to traditional Israel-backing stance, but is concerned about the new coalition"

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-party-is-pro-israel-...

Wow, so you have to be pro-Israel in order to not be considered an anti-Semite?

What about all those Israelis marching against the govt in Israel, are they considered anti-Semites too?

Western political discourse has descended into utter nonsense.

There are entire Wikipedia articles on the history of Labour's issues with anti-Semitism- I know, because my link to one was posted before your reply was. The issue is much more nuanced than what you or the person you're replying to are implying.

Supposedly Jeremy Corbin said something overly critical of its foreign policy, but I've yet to hear a direct quote I wouldn't myself say in public.

Look, I don't really wanna get bogged down in Tory-Labour, Republican-Democrat, "is being opposed to certain issues and members of the Irsaeli government anti-Semitic" conversation. I really don't. But as a US citizen who follows US news closely and world news incidentally, I'm aware this is an entire topic of discussion. I expected it to be a section of Corbyn's page- and it was- but there's a whole Wikipedia article about it, so you can judge for yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_...

My personal read is, it ain't much different from some stuff in US politics. A bit of horseshoe theory stuff, not that I buy into that at large. But on the right you have politicians making alliances with neo-Nazis, on the left you have fervently pro-Palestine politicians. Both sides are or can be partially motivated by xenophobia, neither side is immune to having a theoretically defensible view possibly motivated by actual prejudice. I myself have been called an anti-Semite over disagreements that I believe to have little to do with religion and much to do with the actions of government agents. So it goes.

Proposed leftist economic policy.

St Jeremy led an institutionally anti-semitic Labour Party, clearly documented by the EHRC. Reading that will answer your question.

> immigration sentiment in the Midlands

Like it or not, UK needs (skilled & semi-skilled) immigrants. There are jobs which the citizens do not want to do but still expect world-class, low-cost services. This is where semi-skilled people which used to come from Europe stopped after the brexit.

To fund the welfare system, NHS, old-age care, the govt needs money. This is where high tax paying, skilled immigrants come in.

The govt is not doing much to attract the relevant people (unlike Germany, Canada for example)

> There are jobs which the citizens do not want to do

Do you have a shred of evidence to support this?

Construction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPGe6HQlZI

Hotels,pubs,etc: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/british-...

Documentary: Britain's Unemployment Crisis | A Very British Job Agency | Channel 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVH6pgKyZvE

Taxis/Uber (anecdotal): I rarely see proper english uber drivers.

The primary beneficiaries of those low-cost services seem to be the upper deciles, while the indirect harm hits the lower stratas of society. And the net benefit seems entirely unclear, especially when the long-term pension and benefits obligations for immigrants are taken into account.

For example, let's say immigration reduces the cost of housekeeping services from $20 per hour to $15 per hour. That's great for an upper-middle class person who saves a bit of their weekly cleaning bill, but a lower-middle class person saves nothing, because they clean their own house. And the people who were displaced from that semi-skilled industry are now likely looking for jobs in other semi-skilled industries, depressing wages across those classes of jobs.

And of course immigration also contributes to rent inflation and increases in the cost of real estate, which primarily benefits those with significant capital in real estate (again, disproportionately the very wealthy) while driving down disposable income for everyone else.

> The primary beneficiaries of those low-cost services seem to be the upper deciles

Not necessary. For example, NHS is used by a large cross-section of the society. Another example are council services like picking up garbage. You will notice there is a substantial deterioration in these services.

> semi-skilled industry are now likely looking for jobs in other semi-skilled industries

There is a massive shortage of labour in hotels, farms, construction

> rent inflation and increases in the cost of real estate

Yes it does. But this is because of lack of housing supply. Govt is missing new housing targets every year since 2001 [1]. The focus should be to increase the pie instead of being a zero-sum game. The right migrants help you achieve this.

Also, the UK's birth rate is below replacement level [2] and with life expectancy high, UK will increasingly need more tax payers to fund the current standard of living .

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61407508

[2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

With respect to the "hating Israel" comment, I'd encourage people to read an article written by David Graeber (now, sadly, deceased) in 2019: For the first time in my life, I'm frightened to be Jewish [1]

[1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/first-time-...

Yes - and the more focus on “Culture War” topics by the Tories is equally ridiculous. It’s a generational failure of leadership.

irish republican or guns and incest republican?

The latter.

apologies im sure you aren't all pro incest but i couldnt think of how else to call it

Ironic you blame the Tories, since all those industries primarily died of during the 70s, after the collapse of Bretton-woods; when unionist Labour ruled the country by marxist-economist principles.

France and Germany are industrial powerhouses that are ruled by unions. Much more of their GDP comes from manufacturing than the USA, and dramatically more than the UK. It's absolutely possible to build a harmonious and productive system.

France has smaller manufacturing than the UK [1], neither France or Germany has never been "ruled by unions" the same way that the UK was in the 70s [2]:

> _The most egregious example of waste was the coal industry, hence the strikes. The tax payer was subsidizing coal to the tune of £1.3 billion a year which was real money back then, just under 1% of total national GDP, not including the increased costs to power and steel industries that were prevented from using cheaper alternatives. When the mining union leader Arthur Scargill appeared before a Parliamentary committee and was asked at what level of loss it was acceptable to close a pit he answered “As far as I can see, the loss is without limits.”_

You are just straight up lying at this point. Even in France, unionist lawmaking is one of the reasons _why_ France has so little investment and manufacturing, and Macron was elected on a platform of trying to break it up.

[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FRA/france/manufacturi....

United Kingdom $274.87B France $262.64B

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35092534

It doesn't seem to work the same in the anglosphere though. Unions in Germany at least seem more like guilds, they engage in collective bargaining but also do a lot to ensure high quality work from their members. Less need to focus on the owner/management and more need to focus on the public/customer side of things.

Anglo culture is probably more atomized, with different effects of collective bargaining as a result.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com