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Comment by microtherion | Hacker News Reader

The use of the Unicode code points can actually help in disambiguating here. For regular letters, you have to be very careful about which contexts to accept roman numerals in, otherwise you'll suddenly get numbers read for words like "CD" and "IV" and for lowercase letters even words like "mix" (Older Unix users may remember the joke about upgrading from vi to xv).

And then there are cardinal vs ordinal contexts:

Mac OS X -> "ten"

Pope John X -> "the tenth"

Malcolm X -> "ex"

King's X -> "cross"

X-mas -> "christ"

X-ing -> "cross"

10 X 2 -> "by" or "times"

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Wait, "X-ing" means "crossing"? Now those nonsensical "XING PED" road writings make more sense: I thought it was weird to have some random Chinese or Vietnamese phrase written in Latin on a road in the US of all places... but it's just short for "crossing pedestrians", right?

Although on the other hand, now that I think of it, what's wrong with the zebra crossing?

I assume you mean why not have road markings rather than the signage. Sometimes road markings disappear in rain and the bright lights reflecting off the road can mess up the contrast. I had a hard time navigating Seattle due to the inability to see road markings, it seemed that everyone else knew where to go (and not go) from previous experience so I would follow the traffic. But sometimes there was no traffic either…

EDIT: Not sure what I did to elicit so many downvotes on a personal anecdote. I was not advocating the exclusive use a PED XING sign just giving a situation where zebra crossing markings may be insufficient.

I have never seen PED XING used (don't live in the US) but from a quick image search it is used for both signage and road markings. In either both cases there are more intuitively understandable options - a literal (zebra) crossing drawn on the road or a sign of a crossing pedestrian. That this doesn't seem to be widely adopted accross the world and that searching returns many people asking WTF it means reinforces that idea.

I too saw them ever in US only. Most of these have multiple set of signs. PED XING on Road as an early warning. A metal sign post on the side depicting a pedestrian. Then the actual White Lines, the crossing. Similar text examples on road are like STOP AHEAD, SCHOOL AREA, RIGHT ONLY, LEFT ONLY, FWY NNN etc.

The USA is weirdly fond of using words (or cryptic abbreviations of words) where other countries use icons. The Slate article "The Big Red Word vs. the Little Green Man" has more on this. (I'd link it, but Slate is down right now.)

See also in transport timetables, where every other country in the world would use a 24-hour clock, the USA not only uses the 12-hour clock, but furthermore does an extra layer of abbreviation used only in the USA and nowhere else. I was in a New York airport staring at signs saying 9:06p and similar for several minutes before I even worked out they were supposed to be times. The US makes no accommodations for tourists even in major international transport hubs. Strange country.

The USA is weirdly fond of using words (or cryptic abbreviations of words) where other countries use icons

It's not weird at all. The rules were created at a time when the United States was very monolingual.

Europe made its rules around symbols because there are lots of people speaking lots of languages next to one another and crossing borders.

Not weird at all. Just logic and history.

AFAIK, Europe uses symbols because you have to be able to detect them when you’re driving past at speed in all kinds of weather.

That also is the reason why, even today, the train on traffic signs is a steam train; it makes it easier to distinguish it from a truck.

I also would be curious when, if ever, the USA was “very monolingual”. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4092008/:

“At the time of independence, non-English European immigrants made up one quarter of the population and in Pennsylvania two-fifths of the population spoke German. In addition, an unknown but presumably significant share of the new nation's inhabitants spoke an American Indian or African language, suggesting that perhaps a third or more of all Americans spoke a language other than English. With the Louisiana Purchase in 1803 (which doubled the size of the country), the Treaty of 1818 with Britain (which added the Oregon Country), the Adams-Onís Treaty of 1819 with Spain (which gave Florida to the U.S.), and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848 (which acquired nearly half of Mexico), tens of thousands of French and Spanish speakers along with many more slaves and the diverse indigenous peoples of those vast territories were added to the linguistic mix.”

In US, I much later found that the truck -ish symbol I thought was a School Bus or a Regular bus (because it was a truck with bonut, windows) is actually a fire truck symbol.

Germany, Luxembourg and Slovakia use a modern train, although they do show it at an angle or head-on and with track, which will help distinguish it from a truck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_European_road_si...

Don’t forget the “no U-turn” signs, sometimes with a traffic sign _and_ text, every hundred meters or so, also in places where you have to be insane to try and make one, such as on Golden State bridge.

I’ve also seen them on roads where the median strip was over 10 meters wide, with a ditch _and_ guard rails. I guess that’s what they have SUVs for.

> Sometimes road markings disappear in rain and the bright lights reflecting off the road can mess up the contrast.

That’s a problem that a lot of countries solved a long while ago… The solution is a bit of paint every 10 years or so.

There are cultural reasons, with the US preferring words and abbreviations and steadfastly refusing pictures that are standard in most of the world. But it is not a technical problem.

I some circumstances it really is not sufficient. I only experienced it Seattle so I don't expect it to be a common experience. I don't know why their roads are so shiny in the rain. They could be using a different surface finish for their roads.

Yep, Vienna Convention is 50+ years today

He’s not saying the markings wash away in rain, he’s saying 3” of water on the ground at night make the paint invisible.

If the water is high enough that you don’t see the markings, then driving is a terrible idea as you don’t know what else you’re not seeing.

It takes very little water, especially at night, to totally obscure road markings. If we took that advice, then you couldn't drive on rainy nights at all. Just like the GP said, lighting can make the situation worse by reflecting off the water. The signage is a great backup in this scenario.

It's not clear to be what else you think the water might be obscuring in this scenario. Maybe potholes, on poorly maintained roads you're not familiar with? At least where I live, that's not a problem.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ten_thousand.png

I always read them (XING PED) in my mind as ZING PEDD.. I knew the actual meaning. Rail Road Crossing with 4 Rs at top, left, right, ledt of a cross is read by me as RRRRs.

I don't know why you are getting downvoted. I read those road markings the exact same way as you, no idea what "XINGPED" was. Finally at middle age, from an HN post, I understand what they mean. Mind blown. Why they just can't paint "Crossing" in slightly smaller text or just use the standard crosswalk bars? Jeez.

The ped xing sign is a small rectangle of auxiliary text below the graphic sign. There isn't room for spelled out "crossing" without compromising legibility at distance.

The pedestrian should be obvious from the graphic, so just "CROSSING" would be clearer. Most of the world uses a graphic-only sign for this [1, 2] so I'd think the text is redundant.

(A Google Image search shows examples of "PED XING" alone, but I don't know if this is official or common.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Denmark_road_sign_A17.svg

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Denmark_road_sign_E17.svg

(Red triangles are warnings, and blue rectangles are information. The blue sign is used at the crossing, and the red one some distance before if if that's necessary -- typically on faster roads.)

> The pedestrian should be obvious from the graphic

The text is intentionally fully-redundant with the graphic, when both are used.

Personally I think the text decreases understanding, since it's using a very unusual abbreviation.

"XING PED" road writings

It's PED XING, as in "Pedestrian crossing." It's read in order as you approach each word, not from a satellite view.

Ped Xing was a character in Max Headroom.

> I thought it was weird to have some random Chinese or Vietnamese phrase written in Latin on a road in the US of all places... but it's just short for "crossing pedestrians", right?

In Max Headroom, the main television network, Network 23, was owned by the ZikZak Corporation, controlled by an Asian CEO named Ped Xing.

Giving him a street sign name follows a pattern established by Max himself, who (in universe) was a sort of digital reconstruction of the connectome of maverick journalist Edison Carter. (In real life he wasn't even CG, just actor Matt Frewer in prosthetic make-up!) The last thing Carter saw before his seemingly fatal motorcycle crash was a sign that read "MAX HEADROOM 2.3M"; the "headroom" term being common in Britain where American signs might use "clearance".

> Although on the other hand, now that I think of it, what's wrong with the zebra crossing?

"PED XING" is painted on the road (or written on a sign) to alert drivers of an upcoming zebra crossing.

The painted-on-road signs are written in reverse word order so that each word is readable in order as you approach by car. Another one seen on U.S. freeways is "SLOW VEH LANE", written as "LANE VEH SLOW".

The very first time I visited an English speaking country, after some years of English lessons and thinking myself reasonably fluent in the language, I stepped out of Los Angeles International Airport, and the first sign I saw was "NO PED XING" — 3 short words, of which I had seen one previously.

Road markings are often written in the bottom-to-top order that you drive over them, rather than in top-to-bottom order that English text is typically read.

https://external-preview.redd.it/_3aW7Flq4ATeZSTqkEnbU0PHOYU...

Therefore you'll typically see "XING PED" or even "XING PED NO" which are both intended to be read in reverse, as the driver drives.

Text that's written left-to-right and then right-to-left and then left-to-right again is named, in Greek, "boustophedron" after how the ox plows. I wonder what bottom-to-top road writing is called in the jargon lingo?

That seems to be the case in the US.

In Europe they are written as you'd read them, so top to bottom.

You'll see STOP BUS.

     BUS

     STOP
     
          
     
     

    _____
    o   o
    |x  |
    |   |
    o   o
    =====

Which looking at it on page makes total sense right?

But while driving it doesn't. It reads opposite. Yet it doesn't mean that a bus needs to stop there. It's a place for the bus to stop, should it drop off passengers, and / or there are people waiting to get on.

But since you're driving you read bottom to top and you'll see STOP BUS.

In the US they're smarter, and you'll see

     STOP

     BUS
     
          
     
     

    _____
    o   o
    |x  |
    |   |
    o   o
    =====

PS What do you think of my car's spoiler?

> In the US they're smarter

While I get the logic of that idea, in practice at least for shorter texts that e.g. fit on two or maybe even three lines you're often/usually? still able to read the whole thing in one go and in the regular top-to-bottom order, so now you're wondering what a "Lane Fire" is supposed to be.

Absolutely, definitely at lower speeds. But that's the thing. When you're driving there should be consistency. You get behind the wheel, you read the way things com to you (or you go towards them).

There's a This American Life episode [0] that mentions this:

> When I was a kid, and I would see the school crossing signs, and there's a picture of the little kids walking, and then it would say "School Xing" And I thought that the "Xing" was a word. And I pronounced it "zing."

[0]: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/605/transcript

> X-mas -> "christ"

Technically:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_(letter)

> The 'X' comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word Christós (Greek: Χριστός, translit. Khristós, lit. "anointed, covered in oil"), which became Christ in English.[1] The suffix -mas is from the Latin-derived Old English word for Mass.[2]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

Interesting, but in popular usage "ex" might be more correct since the main reason for writing "X-mas" instead of Christmas is an attempt to distance the holiday from religion.

the main reason for writing "X-mas" instead of Christmas is an attempt to distance the holiday from religion.

That's internet revisionist history.

The real reason was to save space in writing. "X" as an abbreviation for Christ is very common in Christianity, and has been for a couple of thousand years now.

Even Roman Catholic priests' robes have "ΧΡ" on them as an abbreviation for "Christ."†

† https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-does-the-symbol-of-the-p-wi...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

Even the abbreviation has a history. And a couple Unicode symbols: and ⳩ (weirdly, one displays in HN and the other does not.)

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