About the inheritance I disagree, when you are a farmer and sell a potato you sell it once and then it's gone, if you are a carpenter you make a furniture piece and sell it and its gone. Why should art be a "legacy" that can be kept selling forever?
What is the market price for a potato?
What is the market price for a chair?
What is the price of developing an art career over 40 years? Unless you believe that art, music, poetry, literature, and the rest have no value to society then IP protections are what incentives a portion of humanity to do something crazy like go to art school…
…instead of you know doing the “responsible” thing and getting a CS degree so you can one day get an AI gig stealing “training data” in the name of profit
If you want to encourage more creative work, maybe look for other mechanisms, because going into creative work in the hope of making it is pretty much gambling with awful odds.
Sure, we can say that still isn't "good enough", but that kinda proves the smaller point that the actual creative output of most creatives is not valued, and at the same time ignores that the main point I made above is that it is irrational for people to gamble on being valued, because the vast majority of "successful" creators as measured by relative rank within their peer group has no realistic prospect of that happening today.
* Rejecting intellectual property necessitates rejecting that art provides any value to society.
* The only reason artists make art is to make money.
* (Implicitly) Without IP artists would have no incentive to make art, monetary or otherwise.
* Making art requires going to art school.
* Getting a CS degree and making art are mutually exclusive.
Of course, with weaker IP protections, there would be change. Some very specific business models that exist today would go extinct. And other business models (e.g. live performances) might see a renaissance in popularity.
> IP protections are what incentives a portion of humanity to do something crazy like go to art school
Hard disagree, most of the art fields are first a passion and then a profession. People who go to art school is normally because they love it so much that they cannot imagine themselves doing something else, even though they already know it pays little. I've never ever heard of someone going to art school "because of IP protections".
One of the reasons it's so hard to make money is because there's many people doing it as a hobby that are already great at it, and so would jump at the chance of getting some money for it, leaving people who want to make livable wages outcompeted. Which is fine, this way society as a whole benefits greatly, sure it's unfortunate there are no more people living off it, but in exchange there are many, many amateurs experimenting and doing art, and from time to time one finds a formula that allows them to live off it (or "shills" to corporate).
I really didn't get any vibe of bias from them.
Either way, it seems you miss their point entirely, which is that you cannot equate a creative idea as the same as a product.
The furniture example all boils down to if the work is allowed by the author to be mass produced (if it even can be done) but the creative idea is still theirs.
>I've never ever heard of someone going to art school "because of IP protections".
Similar with my first point you misunderstood their point. Their point is that thanks to ip protection they can invest the time needed to become a successful artist within their lifetime.
> "He should be able to at least provide for his kids college after his death if his IP still has value in the marketplace."
Why should he, besides because that's a good desire for a family member? If it was a 3rd party wanting this, usually we'd call that rent-seeking behavior and it's usually seen negatively.
> But the creative idea is still theirs
Why is this (besides copyright law ofc)? The carpenter doesn't forbid me from creating a similar chair of him, and if we are talking about a painting and e.g. I was learning I could definitely copy it for learning purposes and everyone would be fine with that, so at which point should it "not be okay" to copy it? To lend to a friend in private? Can I share (in person, no copies) to a group of friends? I bought a painting, can I print it on a t-shirt for myself? What I can do after I purchase a copy of the idea in private should not be up to the author IMHO, and that line is often very blurry.
Technically as long as you don't sell a product that is a copy, you are "fine" to have said product.
However if you do sell it, it would incentivize a parasitic market.
Something you see sometimes in open source software, esp with IaaS.
You sure about that, legally?
>…instead of you know doing the “responsible” thing and getting a CS degree so you can one day get an AI gig stealing “training data” in the name of profit
You're right about this, though. But this strikes me as a discursive issue that has more to do with the generalized butthurt over schooling that you see here in HN and tech circles - I think it's funny that it's Local Boob Paul Graham talking about writing (which to be fair he cannot shutup about) that set this whole thing off.
They just show it to the AI, it doesn't store it - just data about it. The same as you when you look at something, be it a painting or a chair.
The only reason AI companies store the data is they want repeatability. If you want to train two copies on the same data you can't rely on the same sites being up. I commit the same crime by saving websites I've read because I don't want my sources to dry up on me.
> What is the price of developing an art career over 40 years?
Market price. How does it benefit the customer here and now?
It's no different than being a furniture maker with years of carpentry skills. The value to the customer is still just the marginal benefit over an IKEA stool.
In general for machine learning, yes, but deep learning models with large numbers of parameters such as transformers and stable diffusion do actually memorise part of their training data verbatim. The problem is mainly duplicate data points. E.g.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/resea...
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2202.07646.pdf Quantifying Memorization Across Neural Language Models
I was translating code with one of the code- models at OpenAI and it spit out about thirty words of someone's code of conduct from Github, almost verbatim. I found the repo by searching what it had produced. That's when I changed my prompts to remove comments, but it stuck with me.
In general though, I think the pigeon-hole principle is relevant. The model is fairly small compared to the training material and couldn't contain much actual full content or it wouldn't be able to contain anything about the rest.
I've heard people talking about using the model to judge similarity of new training data to what it's already seen, mainly to train more efficiently, but also to avoid this.
As an artist starting out in the beginning of my career, I made a rationalized choice to never post my work online - in retrospect this seems to have been the right choice. My work is no AI’s whetstone.
It is a luxury career supported exclusively by surplus. There will always be demand for it, but it is highly elastic and heavily influenced by trends and skewed by the top end.
Sorry if I framed it confusingly, this isn't only for artists, it's for everyone. They don't care what you do, only how much money you make.
> how it's not the same as a basic unemployment
It pretty much is, though unemployment has more strings attached. Anything you get from unemployment is subtracted from social security, and vice versa. For unemployment the online form is simpler and money comes much quicker, but you have to attend unemployment office events and stuff.
> whether there is a maximum amount of people who can be on this programme
The true maximum is of course however much the system as a whole can support, through taxing people's income. My back-of-the-napkin math puts the cost of the whole program at about $1/mo per taxpayer. So all artists and bums combined. Might not include basic retirement, which is slightly less.
> how qualification works
It's based on income/assets. If you make less than $10k/y plus $150/mo, the program covers the difference for living expenses.
In practice, there are limits to how much they're willing to pay for things like rent and utilities. In my city the max rent is $560/mo. On this winter's coldest month they complained that my electricity bill was too high (electric heating), but still paid it in full when I complained back.
To qualify, you have to attach to your application all of your bank accounts' statements from the past 3 months, so they can see how much money you've got. When you get a bill, you send the bill and they cover it.
The social security program covers: rent, water, electricity, home insurance, Internet, healthcare, moving van, security deposit of new apartment. On top of that you get about $15/day for food and other stuff like clothes, cleaning products, what have you. In my experience food costs some $10/day to live comfortably so some $150/mo remains for everything else. Second hand clothing stores sell decent clothes for a few dollars a piece, sometimes less.
You can request additional funds for infrequent, dire needs, like a new bed, vaccuum cleaner, etc.
Feel free to ask more questions, I'm happy to elaborate :)
Ah, OK, that was what I was wondering. Some social security schemes for artists that I am aware of require proof that you are in fact an artist, which can be problematic.
I think it doesn't go quite far enough though. I still believe a universal basic income would do better and be easier to administer.
What is your career, precisely?
My point was that it's a career whose demand is dictated by fluctuations in the economy and trends. And can be almost completely shut down (in theory) if the situation dictates.
Wherever you stand on copyrights, it would be a mistake to underestimate the central importance of this issue going forward.
I don't think my comment implies that at all. I'm not convinced it'll ever grow that large though. See: Content is not king [1] for a good explanation of why.
I think it's natural that it grows now to levels never seen before.
What am I underestimating? I agree it is an important issue; my comment is orthogonal to it though.
The US has cultural poverty because it has decided to support litigation machines.
I mean a good thought experiment here would be to replace "artists" with "entrepreneurs" or "founders" ("historically, [...] were independently wealthy" would expose some of the myths we attach to the idea of "self-made" which we rarely attach to artists and authors) here and rethink the history of Western commerce from that perspective.
Can you explain this position? My understanding is most artists don't thrive economically because there's not much demand for the art they make. I'm not sure that's correct, but "lack of IP protections" seems even less likely for most artists. What protections do you think would help?
It seems to me that the current system primarily benefits corporations who acquire a vast library of IP and can afford to legally defend it all as necessary.
I agree that a different set of policies would result in more art being created and more artists who are able to support themselves doing art, but my immediate assumption of what that would look like is more like funding art educations and exhibitions (of various kinds).
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-53ec1e395a4b59adb8391...
Yeah, the law may be more on their side, but overall it seems unless you're somebody on the level of Akira Toriyama you likely barely managed to retain your sanity while cranking out your world famous works, and even the famous ones suffer greatly during the process.
You think we should have 1000x more artists than we do? I think there's another economic problem with that idea...
> The US has chosen relative cultural poverty compared to other cultures that find non-market mechanisms to support artists.
The USA has the largest market in the world for creative products and the most rich artists.
> My work is no AI’s whetstone.
Are you the same way with juniors? "I paid dearly to learn this technique - you should too!"
Aside from overtraining issues, the AI can't store your work anymore than you can store representations of everything you've trained on, it's vastly smaller than the sum of its training data. It distills out features and their combinations.
Some bigname artist is upset because he thinks he's the first one to put certain bat and lizard features on a dragon and that he now owns that entire sort of creature. Turns out though, that given an old picture of a dragon and that single sentence of mine that he could be copied by almost anyone. The only way to keep the AI from "copying" his work is to make sure that, even if not trained on his work, nobody asks it for those features. To satisfy these people it'll have to have a big red sign that says "Dragons are off limits, Bob owns them because you might put claws on the wings!".