Note: I recently moved to Indianapolis and have found it much worse than expected (which was pretty terrible) for anyone interested in web app startup.
1) Kansas City for high school
2) Annapolis for college
3) Rhode Island for six months
4) San Diego for four years
5) Annapolis for two and a half years
6) New Orleans for 5 weeks to start medical school
7a) Lived with my parents for one year in College Station, Texas after Katrina
7b) Attended classes in Houston for that year
8) Back to New Orleans with trips to San Antonio, Houston, College Station, Washington, DC, Norfolk, Virginia, and New Haven, Connecticut.
If I were going to move to one of those places for the purpose of starting a start up, first, I wouldn't. Second, I'd prioritize the list like so
1) College Station (couldn't study for all the people talking about setting up this or that, whether they had set up their S corp, when the fiber would be laid down, etc). These people are definitely still engineers.
2) San Diego
3) Washington, DC, including Annapolis (home of Wonkette)
4) New Haven (mainly due to proximity to both Boston and NY)
5) Norfolk, VA (lots of military contracts)
6) San Antonio
7) Rhode Island
8) Houston
9) Kansas City
10) New Orleans
Why is New Orleans last? I mean, I'm here, and clearly I've learned more about programming and system admin here than anywhere. I can't believe I'm saying it, but there really is an element of old world culture down here that I will miss when I leave. And it's sort of a city within a city: you meet the people you know all over the place. And really, I've learned more from the programmers I've met here than from anyone (except my brother, who lives in San Antonio). But there are two overwhelming factors working against ever trying to do a start up here: 1) Who would ever put a server in New Orleans? 2) Tulane dismissed their entire engineering college after the storm. No hacker I know is here because it's a good place for hacking. In some ways, it awesome. But there's virtually no one here. I think I've identified all the XOs in the city, and it adds up to about 6 (it was 5 until someone in Texas mailed me a spare).
Why would I rank Houston below San Antonio? Houston is much larger, 4th largest city in the US. Surely there is a greater absolute number of hackers in Houston. But having lived in Houston, you would be hard-pressed to get me to move back. It's so huge and spread out and the public transit system is so non-existent that you end up spending your life in a car. And I get the sense that most people would rather live in Austin or, if they want to stay close to the engineering, they go to College Station.
Provo is "the country's second largest software center," according to Kiplinger,featuring top employers Novell, Micron Technology and Omniture."
http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2008/05/2008-best...
Some of my friends work for http://EnticeLabs.com (a software startup in the HR space), http://InsideSales.com is out here, http://Omniture.com of course (founded by BYU students), and there's a growing list of tech bloggers to keep track of it all (http://connectblogs.com)
Get Lucky: You might find a friend or two, and that's all you need to stay motivated, but don't anything beyond that.
The Wasteland: I lived in Nashville for far too long. People just don't give a damn about ideas. They don't even think about ideas. They just want to make some money and hang out. They don't value work and ideas for their own sake, but only in terms of the financial benefits they bring. That is what slayed me. Not having people with any kind of vision.
Get out: I would be curious which city you came from before Indy? If you haven't spent a couple months in sf/seattle/austin/boston/nyc, give it a shot, you'll never want to go back.
Even my parents reacted like this. For a while my Dad thought it was little more than a pipe dream. I'm sure he secretly thought "What the hell is this boy doing? He gets back from Afghanistan, decides not to finish college, and instead moves out to Boston for some Internet... thing? WHERE DID I GO WRONG?!?!" ;)
He now understands things better and though my parents still don't really understand the entire idea of a "web business" and "venture capitalists" (which obviously aren't a web-only thing, but they are from Ohio after all...) and all that rot, they are now more realistic about it and "get" why I did this... why I had to, even.
The 13 hour stretch from Cincinnati to Boston was easily one of the best days of my life. Shedding the shackles of mid-western suburbia to embark on an adventure, having no idea how or when it would end or where it would take me. I'd never felt so... free. Where I came from exhibits quite the contrast; a society content to live firmly within the lines of what is considered proper, reasonable and safe.
Right now we have a really solid community and it is growing all the time. There are quite a few startups here. We had Startup Weekend with 80 or so people a few weeks ago. Two weeks ago we had a BarCamp that had 500 attendees.
Granted, quantity is not the same as quality, but I think we have lots of talent here.
Now, most of the early stage capital that is available in Nashville is limited to health care technology. That is a problem (bootstrapping is great, but it takes all kinds).
If I was going to leave Nashville, I don't think I would go to the Bay Area. I have a nice house with a yard in a good school district that cost me well under $300k. The overall quality of life here is great, and really, isn't quality of life what it is really all about?
So what non-coast areas are strong for startups?
Denver Chicago Austin Atlanta North Carolina (research triangle)
Where else? Tallahassee?
There are lots of companies that call themselves startups around here, perhaps 10% truly are. The most notable one in all the media is ChaCha, and its a fucking joke if you ask me.
There are good developers/hackers around here, but its not the same as the west coast.
Either way, welcome to Indy... It can be an OK city if you like Insurance, Transportation, Conventions and Basketball. :p
Perhaps we should have an Indy HN meetup sometime. In what part of Indy are you (you being anyone in Indy reading this) located?
If you like Ruby, there is a monthly Ruby group meeting at the downtown library (which is pretty awesome, in my opinion). Search meetup.com for Ruby and Indianapolis.
Complaining is useless. Maybe we can improve the city's startup scene ourselves, huh? Who else is going to do it?
Edit: To clarify: the library is awesome. I've only been to last month's Ruby meeting, so far. I get the feeling many of these sorts of groups are in their infancy. The Ruby group is sponsored by DealerFlow (http://dealerflow.com/), which is a startup of sorts. The Indianapolis Star (newspaper) employs some Ruby hackers (Indy.com is currently Rails, for now). I work at a data center (ChaCha is a customer) writing our custom intranet apps using Ruby/Rails. There are bright spots in Indy, you just have to dig.
In terms of available jobs, it is a bit frustrating. I know the Dealer Flow guys are currently looking for new talent - they're doing some cool stuff w/ Erlang (ejabberd, primarily I believe) and Ruby/Rails. There's a place in town called Sagebit (sagebit.com), which is smaller and does a mix of their own products + consultancy work. I don't know if they're looking, but they're good people to meet regardless. (Ruby/Rails/Merb, btw.) I know there's also some startup stuff going on down in Bloomington, which is (of course, entirely by my own opinion) a bit more likely of a town to make good computer sci. contacts in the greater world, what with your proximity to IUB. I only say that to guess, however.
Additionally, there's a Python meetup group in town, a bit smaller than the Ruby group. They've been regularly meeting at Broadripple Brewpub, and are primarily pushed by Six Feet Up, a company that's pretty active in the Zope/Plone/Python world. SFU is mostly consultant based, not really a startup, but they're good people to meet if you're more into that sorta thing.
AFA an HN meetup in Indy, I'd give a +1 to that.
The entrepreneurial community has been growing in the last few years and I believe the local angel investors and VC's are open to ideas revolving around the internet and technology. I have been to a few events put on by the Indiana Economic Development Corporation and both had contests for the best startup pitch/idea. Both were run by small startups (a website and a database technology company).
Indy isn't for everyone. I say go where you have to to get what you want.
I know at least 2-3 people which might come to either/both depending on timing/schedules.
Anyone have a good idea for organizing this? Not to re-invent the 'meetup.com' wheel, but perhaps we could create a mini "HN Fans Meetup" web app, that would benefit not only people in Indy but also any other state that isnt CA or MA..
Edit: I live near Broad Ripple, so pretty much anywhere that isnt Greenwood or Westfield is game. Even then, I'll probably come. :)
Brian
BTW, I live in Carmel and telecommute to San-Fran.
1 - IU Bloomington (not far) was ranked the #1 Public University (#2 Overall) for Entrepreneurship in the country. There are lots of people down there that are trying neat things and are willing to help startups.
2 - The cost of starting a startup here is retarded low. I can get full office space with utilities included for <$500/mo for a small slace or <$1000 for a medium/large space. You wont find that anywhere. Employment costs are lower, living expenses, training costs, infrastructure costs, etc -- all lower.
Still, it wont help you that much since there are very few people in the midwest with startup mentality. And finding '1st' customers here is a real pain. I had my last startup here and we had the biggest problem convincing someone to even spend 3 minutes to try something new. There is a conservatism at work that shuns new things until they are 'proven'. Most successful software/startup companies in the midwest still find their first customers on the coasts.
The rent I'm talking about for Indy is downtown (not that it matters in indy). If I went to the Indy Suburbs, I could probably get it cheaper... Almost free probably for trade of some sort.
But driving in Chicago is a real pain, and I wouldnt want to live in the suburbs and/or have to commute there.
Joel Spolsky wrote an article on finding office space:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/OfficeNewYork.html
If you're running up against really expensive space, you may be falling into the trap of trying to buy "class A" space, or space that's jacked up because of "amenities" you don't care about.
Funny that you should mention ChaCha because when I got here the most intriguing opportunities I could find were with Scott Jones' companies (founder of ChaCha). I recently started working for SAJE and GalaxiaLighting.com, two of his newer companies, but am holding my judgment until I am there a little longer. I have a feeling I may be on my way out of here when my lease runs up next summer unless something changes. Scott is a serial entrepreneur who is trying to bring the spirit to Indiana through his companies and foundations but progress seems to be slow.
I also love the quality of life out here and live frugally, much cheaper than in Boston.
I would not walk, RUN, here from Indy. If you do, there's also a very solid group of Duke Tech entrepreneurs out here that meet regularly.
This is a good point. I'm leaving Indy at some point -- but it is very hard to move from Indy (low cost of living) to SFC or any coast (high cost of living). Especially considering the (current) lack of jobs coming on the market these days.
Given the market, I think the good plan is to either Move there if you know someone to crash with and try to find a job, but if you dont, try to do your own thing and build some resume credibility (read create some web apps or commit some code to something notable) and try again in 6 months.
My cost of living per month is about $2k. It's what you make it. I would try to save up $2k-4k and make the move. If you can't make it happen in 1 or 2 months, make sure you have enough to get a plane ride home.
Either way, good luck.
When compared to the Ruby conferences I've priced, that seems dirt cheap.
Of course, Chicago is in middle America.
This ask.metafilter post is about the Kalamazoo, MI area, which is about 50 miles South of here: http://ask.metafilter.com/105668/Growing-up-no-one-thinks-th... Much of it applies to Southwest Michigan in general. Not the greatest area tech-wise, but it's quite pretty if you're outdoorsy (particularly for fishing and kayaking - there are lakes and rivers all over), the farmer's markets are nice, housing / office space is is not terribly expensive, etc.
It's also an easy (and cheap!) train ride to Chicago from here, FWIW.
Because it is not about starting it or where you start it. Its about finishing. What do you need to finish? Does Indy have the resources available and accessible for budding entrepreneurs to close the loop on an idea and create a business?
I'm looking for help. Yes, I miss the hustle and bustle and wondering if every person at Starbucks in Palo Alto or Mt View just bagged $1 million from VC. But at the same time I know where I want to raise my family, where I want to vacation and where my access to top notch stable talen is - and that is Indianapolis.
I've built one company. Sold it. Working on another. Have a 9 to 5 that pays bills and pays health insurance, but my "idle" mind perpetuates. I need help - did I mention that?
Not sure where the next finish line is, but I'm willing to run the race with you.
ideas: manufacturing kanban software, logistically distribution AI, virtual pharmaceutical testing, quick hit web apps, SEO consulting, beer brewing (just seeing if you are still reading).
anyway, i'm a grizzled 4.5 year indy tech veteran, work at software company that went from 70-400 in my tenure and an idea man. i'm seasoned working in a pressure cooker. interested in talking more if you are - looking to make a leap.
(Half my company is in Manhattan, but our revenue isn't 50/50).
I have friends in Indy with a thriving, well-funded company in the telephony space; I'll try to get one of them to chime in with why they moved their company from NYC metro to Indiana.
Prior to Matasano, I spent 4 years at a VC-funded startup in Ann Arbor, MI --- Arbor Networks. Being in the middle of nowhere is great for the company and crappy for the employees; Arbor was the only credible option for a developer with a mortgage in Ann Arbor, so most of the team was stuck.
Housing costs are higher than average (lots of people move to Dexter and Ypsi to get around this, but then you lose "walkable"), and there isn't a huge amount of capacity, and you have to deal with students and avoid student housing.
Great school system. Good parks. Lots of kids.
It's a fine place live. But it's a crappy place to relocate to: if your job starts to suck, or god forbid you lose it, where else are you going to work? The University, for 40% of your current salary?
When you're 20, this is not a big deal. You lose your job, you move somewhere else. When you're 30, you start wanting to own a home. If you have a mortgage, and you don't have a lot of cushion in your bank account (young people with houses often don't), you need 3-6 months warning to relocate.
If you have kids, regardless of whether you rent or own, moving is A Big Deal. I moved back to Chicago instead of NYC because I needed to commit to my family that I wasn't going to uproot them again.
Overall, it's quite pleasant, aside from Wisconsin being rather boring in the overall. I'd rather live in Chicago, but my wife's job is here. It's not an intellectual hot-spot or anything, but it's sufficient for running a business.
And it's a pretty peasant place to raise children whenever we decide to start squeezing a few out.
*The property taxes such HARD in Wisconsin (particularly the Milwaukee Area).
On a separate note, I think hackers who make it big should try to go back to their small towns or non-silicon valley places, especially if it has a good university and try to sow the seeds so that that these other places become hacker friendly. I really admire that Italian guy behind Balsalmiq for going back to Italy and doing his thing. He is not that big yet, but hackers there have a reason to stick around and try to make it.
It's cheaper to live out there then in San Fran, NYC or Boston.
Don't let location and the old adage of having to be in the valley stop you from innovating! IF you make something interesting or that has perceived value your work will get noticed!
Well, sort of. I'm really in O'Fallon, MO, but STL isn't very far away.