Facebook confirms it will drop news sharing in Canada under bill C-18
michaelgeist.ca
michaelgeist.ca
As a Canadian, it bothers me that our politicians are willing to jump through mental hoops to avoid considering the most obvious solutions.
If news companies don't want people accessing their content through the web, shouldn't they simply take down their web sites? If they aren't willing to do that (because, say, the benefits outweigh the costs), then perhaps this isn't an issue that warrants legislation...
People are not reading the articles in full (and therefore being presented with ads, or a subscription paywall), but they are engaging on the social media platform that in turn is making money with ads and other features thanks to the engagement produced by the shared news article.
News companies are being cannibalized by social media companies who get all the engagement (and ad revenue), while people at scale are not signing up for paywalls or even visiting the news site to read the article in full.
I believe this will hopefully make news companies get back to a profitable business, while making conversations on social media platforms a lot healthier.
As a Canadian it's really hard to give a shit about any of this.
What a weird thing to say, this is wildly untrue.
Foreign ownership laws tilt this dramatically.
Maybe the news companies should write articles that are worth reading in full?
If Facebook links to an article people might follow the link and read it. If they don't link to an article, nobody will read it. There is nothing but upside for the news companies, and people with business savvy would love to have their site linked on Facebook (that's why people pay them so much money for ads!).
I don't really see how you change that behavior. People are drawn to the path of least resistance, and that path is often just reading the headline and brief summary before making your comment and moving on to the next thing in your social media feed.
The value social media companies add is creating a space where users feel like they get all their news (and other things), and can converse about it either with friends and family or like-minded strangers. I don't see how news outlets themselves can compete with that without essentially seeking to replace Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc.
I think it's fair to say that social media companies profiting off other people's labor should share that financial liability.
From the perspective of Facebook, Reddit and Twitter, they can just replace CNN and Fox News with Jacobin and Breitbart and nobody will care that much except people who work for those outlets. In fact, most people will probably be happier to have sources that care less about pretending to be "objective" and just support their party's agenda (such outlets were successfully outcompeting corporate media on the social platforms before the circa 2017 algorithm changes).
In other words, the corporate media should be careful what they wish for because they might lose the fantastic gift horse they got from "big tech" 6 years ago. The value of a media outlet is in its influence over public opinion not its profitability and this greed driven proposal is a good way for corporate media to burn down their own influence.
Edit: that said, having them as primary sources for consumption is obviously much worse than actual journalism built on journalistic principals. We simply don't have much of that at all anymore (if we really ever did, which I think an argument could be made it was somewhat better previously).
If not I don’t see how you couldn’t also say that CNN, Fox, and Bloomberg aren’t also honest about their slant.
This is how people have always read the news. In the old days, there was TV and radio news, which are really just headlines and a brief summary of stories, and newspapers. Most people didn't read the majority of the stories in the newspapers -- they'd skim the headlines, maybe read the first paragraph of a few, and read one or two of the stories that particularly interested them.
That's what's hard to monetize online. I have no answers for this problem, but it's certainly a problem.
Yeah, we have newspapers at work. I still read them that way, not needing to read a whole segment unless it is obviously interesting beyond the core story.
Good journalism follows an inverted pyramid writing structure, where the most important information is at the top (the headline) and the information becomes less critical the further down the article you move. This has conditioned people to think they can rely on the headline and the first few sentences to get a rough but accurate idea of what's going on. Getting them to actually go to the news website after they've gotten the most important bits from Facebook or Twitter is an incredibly tall order.
This also isn't about stories posted by news organizations on Facebook. It's about people posting links to news stories on their own pages.
The news media needs to put up strong paywalls and give up on full subscriptions. No one wants to pay $100 per news source to access hundreds of articles they don't want to read. They need to let people pay per article. Paying one article at a time is too expensive due to transaction fees. They need to offer something like 40 articles for $20 and request another payment when the 40 articles run out.
The news media needs social media to spread their article links around. Charging social media per click will result in their article links being reduced or blocked because of the cost. News media with lower cost links will be promoted.
> Maybe the news companies should write articles that are worth reading in full?
Why innovate when you can just regulate and rent seek "evil foreign tech giants"?
Does society want to subsidize mostly clickbait journalism and incentivize creators to predominantly write articles that will be shared widely? Or if society wants to subsidize news beyond headlines, might there be other content they would prefer is subsidized?
Take a look at this: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individ...
> multiplying the lowest personal income tax rate (15%) by the total of all amounts paid by the individual for qualifying subscription expenses in the year up to $500.
Not a Canadian so I've never heard of this before, but does this mean it's just a 15% discount?
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individ...
Tell me: why is the first, highest-upvoted comment to every paywalled article posted on HN, actually just an archive.xx link that defeats that paywall? Coincidence?
It strikes me that writing quality content is not actually the challenge; people here certainly read paywalled content, for free, on the regular. Perhaps monetization is actually just really hard.
I'm certainly not going to subscribe to every service out there to get a variety of news, because it's cost prohibitive, and yet I'd like a variety, because high-quality content is so spread out. What I want, and what I suspect several others want, either isn't available or isn't easy to discover.
Given that subscriptions are generally more profitable for the provider, we should expect subscriptions to dominate over micropayments.
This argument is from https://www-users.cse.umn.edu/~odlyzko/doc/price.war.pdf and is one of the few economic analyses from the dawn of the web age that has proven truly prescient. To quote another of Odlyzko's papers from several years later, "Micropayments are the payment method of the future, and always will be."
Most articles aren't even worth a penny to read. There's just so much garbage out there.
Consider the following:
There's a store giving away "free" coffee, if you agree to have your photo taken and shared publically on social media. And you agree to sign up to their mailing list. And, in the very fine print, you implicitly agree to have your contact info shared with other companies for the purposes of direct marketing. (Of course, you can opt out of the mailing list after you receive your first email... but as for the other companies that now also have your email address, well then it's not so clear. I suppose you'll just have to deal with those, individually, over the course of the weeks/months/years that you receive (and try to opt out of) their marketing barrage.) But hey, free coffee, right?
Next to that store is another coffee shop. This store charges $1.75 for a rather plain, unmarked cup of surprisingly adequate coffee. The store has a tip jar on the counter that's clearly labeled as going towards supporting the local kids' hockey team. (Does it actually go there? Who knows. But people report feeling good dropping loose change in there once in a while, and that's sufficient.) The store clerk knows the regular patrons by name, and the staff tend to "source locally" (not just their materials, but even for their part-time and student help during peak seasons). They're small. They're struggling. And thanks to the "free shop" next door, there's even talk of raising their prices to $2/cup for a small.
Given that scenario, will people choose the "free" coffee? You bet your ass they will. But know these 2 things: there will still be a sizable portion of folks that, given the above scenario, would STILL choose to pay for a product if they knew the "warm fuzzy benefits" that came along for the ride. In other words: money isn't everything. The 2nd thing to note is that, after a while (perhaps, after being sufficiently educated? Or just being tired of treated like a product themselves?) there will be folks who jump ship from the "free store" in search of a more sustainable and ethical alternative. I suppose it might happen in the other direction as well (people leaving the pay shop in order to get free coffee next door) but I hope by now you can understand WHY someone would want to pay a nominal fee for something that is apparently "free" somewhere else.
People were content only reading headlines before. They couldn't be bothered to click the link and read the articles. I get why that's a problem. But now that the users aren't even being given links... the expectation is that users will go out of their way to find and read those articles?
Is their strategy litterally just playing hard to get?
The news company is in the biz of making money for themselves not for facebook. People not clicking the links and reading the articles weren't generating income for them (nor were they getting informed in any meaningful way) however they were enriching another platform (facebook).
So now the users aren't being given links, which they weren't really clicking to begin with, so the news company isn't losing any significant money but at least their work (articles) aren't being used to enrich facebook.
Thier strategy is that the users will eventually want news from somewhere and either they will go to the source, or they will grow dissatisfied with facebook since they don't show news anymore and facebook may pay for the content to keep their own users happy.
it's a minimal risk proposition for the media companies.
Is Canadian news so superior that a significant portion users who were previously content with Facebook's news feed will become so dissatisfied with it that they'll leave?
No. We just have a government that is captured by the media companies. We pay some of the highest fees in the world for internet and phone plans. Those providers happen to be the same media companies [1] [2] pushing for this crap legislation because they own all the newspapers and sports channels. Deep down, they would love to just block Google and Facebook for Canadians, but they know that’s not possible. So now they’re going to use their legislative cronies to ram this law through the House of Commons.
"Come see the journal articles that CNN, Fox and the BBC don't want you to see! So much so they stopped allowing them on the social media sites."
Enough dumb people fall for that marketing trick.
I feel like you just described Hacker News.
You cannot legislate changes to human nature.
The bullshit part is saying Google has to pay for the privilege of linking out to the sites. Ridiculous.
The problem with this strategy is that eventually all the actual news sources will run out of money and the journalists will be laid off, at which point there's no news for the scalper sites to copy.
Maybe we have too many news outlets - you can even read that some employ AI already to write articles for them. They are going for quantity over quality.
There are always going to be people wanting to gossip over a headline and if a news source doesn't provide much beyond that, are they actually providing anything of value?
When we didn't have internet, many people would have looked at newspapers on display and discussed headlines without actually buying a newspaper. Was it a problem then?
Any news website can already prevent Facebook from generating link previews through meta tags, as I understand. But very few, if any, websites do this indicating that they understand it's not in their interests.
Perhaps people are not reading the articles because the _discussion_ is more valuable to them than the content of the article? Don't we all occasionally jump to the comment section on HN/reddit instead of reading the article? Seems to me that many news organizations have not yet figured out how to provide their customers with a product they are willing to "pay" for.
I mean, any brief visit to a small news website without an ad-blocker or, worse, a scroll through the comment section, should make this fairly evident.
I don't see an argument here that supports it, though? How are they making money off having their content cannibalized?
These organic posts/shares likely have significantly better CTR better than a similarly formatted ad, as they would have a "Sally likes this..." header.
It only affects links, not the headline/description/picture blurb. A plain text link would cost FB money, while a headline/description/picture with no link would cost FB nothing.
And presumably FB would only block link-sharing if doing so was a net positive for them.
This implementation is based off fundamentally backwards understandings of the flow of value on the web. The appropriate implementation of this would just be a straight-up corporate tax of social media companies and an accompanying subsidy of news orgs, not this weird linking nonsense.
Maybe that's something the news companies have to work on - such as working on making these sites more useful and attractive to the users, instead of adding more ads and paywalls and then running to the government screaming "people don't want to visit our sites, please save us".
What's Facebook done wrong here?
It won't. Very few people who current aren't paying for news are just going to start. The incenssent news readers pay for news already. The others will move on to other less reliable content.
Shouldn't everyone who posts on social media get a cut of advertising revenue?
I'm old enough to remember my grand father doing that in the 90s in the same store he visited since the 50s.
Media orgs could ban the indexing of their pages by specific scrapers, and users on those social networks would just see a raw URL, not a preview with headline+image+blurb?
That's clearly not the issue. The news companies obviously do want people to access their sites over the web and pay for the privilege. This argument is both incorrect and disingenuous.
The problem is that search and social media companies have been permitted to appropriate and monetize other people's content in different ways. They're parasitic. I don't think that links are really the problem and I'm not surprised that the Liberals have missed the forest for the trees. They do that. The real issue is providing the significant part of the content without requiring people to go to the actual site.
By this logic, Facebook, Google et.al. dropping links to these news outlets would help these companies. Furthermore, they can already opt out of being crawled through their robots.txt file. But of course, this logic is total BS which is why they don't opt of being indexed.
Forcing social media to pay for links users post or click is only going to end up in the news media becoming poorer because social media will demote articles that cost more and promote articles that cost less.
Their business model is under stress because of the internet. Link taxes won't fix this and they set a terrible precedent.
Quoting from Candaland[0]. "In Australia, an estimated 90 per cent of negotiated revenues flowed to the three largest media companies."
That hardly bodes well for independent journalism. This is just a shakedown.
[0] https://www.canadaland.com/canadas-online-news-act-must-be-t...
But if you have lived in Canada for any length of time, you will know that this is a country ruled by a small number of highly profitable corporations, which are largely controlled by a few wealthy families. For instance:
- Corus Entertainment is 80% controlled by the family of JR Shaw. - Rogers Communications is controlled by the family of Ted Rogers (via a trust) - Quebecor is controlled by Pierre Péladeau
Indeed, only BCE (the company that owns Bell Canada) is truly a diversely controlled public corporation.
So really, this bill could be considered as the government acting to protect the interests of three wealthy Canadian families.
[1] https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-18/third-r...
Echoes of the Family Compact, 200 years later.
I would love a world where google and facebook are full of links to primary sources instead of news articles.
Imagine a world where you search "supreme court decision X", "California covid policy", or "FDIC action today" and the top result is the responsible agency statement followed by blogs.
However, traffic originating from Facebook has to represent a sizeable portion of incoming traffic for news site.
Life is really weird for me. If you go by the numbers, we seem to have the best availability of, well, everything, compared to 30 or 40 years ago.
But as someone that has lived through that timeframe, it feels like those things are a cheap, hollow, plastic piece of shit version of their former selves.
sucks to get old
For example, when I bought my home 5 years it came with a Washer and Dyer in the basement, these were not high end units, and I fully expected to need to replace them. However getting large appliances out of my basement is a pain in the ass, so 2 years ago when the dryer broke I was faced with having to get it out of the basement.
You know what I did instead, I watched a YT video, bought a rebuild kit on Amazon and spent a Sunday afternoon fixing it myself. Cost me about 5 hours of time, and $75 in parts. Been working fine since.
In the "old days" the expense of the item required them to be repaired as a large appliance would be a big purchase. Today because of the efficiency and automation in modern manufacturing the cost of a large appliance may be higher in real terms, if you looked at it from something like "per hour of average labor to buy" it is very cheap, to the point that paying a repair person to spend 2 hours + $75 in parts to fix my dryer likely exceeds the cost of just buying a new one down at Lowes.
In the end I dont know of quality has dropped or if things have just gotten cheaper to make....
Same with news... Information used to be very expensive to disseminate. Printing Press, Books, etc. as Technology has increased the cost to disseminate has dropped to the point where information flow is basically free today.
> But given the trend in Canadian media, I’d guess low Thousands… possibly 10-20k if they do really well, but also quite possibly down into the hundreds some episodes… C-SPAN, a sorta equivalent network, got 440,000 viewers for the 2020 republican convention and 76,000 for the 2020 Democratic convention (Citation)… so divide by 10 for the Canadian population…divide by 2 to 10 again for how exciting a week night of TVO isn’t compared to a 2020 US political convention… and ya a few single digit thousand, or even a few hundred viewers on an off night… that’s what we’d estimate for an Average episode of the Agenda.
> The Agenda was thriving as a property in the Internet age. If anything the internet was a massive boon to it. It went from this obscure regional talk show in Ontario to regularly getting hundreds of thousands of views internationally on YouTube.
> The Agenda had dozens of videos in the 2015-2016 period that got millions of views. One of Jordan Peterson’s more famous appearance on The Agenda got 8.5 million views. for a long form interview!? Those are Joe Rogan numbers!
> How the hell does that happen!? How do you go from Joe Rogan big, to smaller than my hobby Substack?
> Hell How does The Agenda pay the production costs!? As of writing, this substack doesn’t pay for the coffee I drink writing it. (please subscribe) How do they produce a 5 day a week show with multiple full time staff for…
> Oh right my tax dollars.
[1] https://anarchonomicon.substack.com/p/why-is-legacy-media-li....
No. They are using their political power to extort money from social media companies.
"Facebook to pay News Corp for content in Australia".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56410335
Rupert Murdoch literally forced google and facebook to pay him money for directing traffic to his sites.
> Imagine a world where you search "supreme court decision X", "California covid policy", or "FDIC action today" and the top result is the responsible agency statement followed by blogs.
That would be ideal but ultimately, the social media companies always cave. Shows you the power of news companies and what they truly are when they can bully the likes of apple, google, facebook, microsoft, etc.
You would think that news publishers like news corp or the nytimes or cnn are no match for the tech giants. But history has proven otherwise.
I would love a world where Facebook doesn't exist, and Google is but one player in a healthy search ecosystem.
A boy can dream.
That's great if you have time to read whatever it is and/or have the knowledge to parse through the language. Most folks aren't going to read the paper nor the overall decision. Time constraints, stress, and simply not being educated in the field (or understanding legal terms) keep folks from doing this.
On top of that, there are definitely times that the news is the primary source. Where else are you going to learn about war, drought, weather, protests, food recalls, and other such things? You'll probably find weather, but nothing on protests. Sure, you can go to "sources", but you have to actively find them.
News might not be the same as it was, but it isn't like it doesn't still have a use.
I'd really like to have rules about headlines/reporting accurately portraying things, but that's a conversation for another time.
[1] - Loophole in copyright laws for reporting
To the point where AU Sub Reddits posters often put 'F U Murdoch' style watermarks on their images.
So much of the news and headlines is ripped straight from Reddit posts it's no longer amusing...
In terms of improving the quality of public discourse, how is this not win-win?
I'd expect most users to continue what they were doing before, but now their feed of headlines will come exclusively from international sources.
I doubt I'd engage less with HN if they banned articles from US companies.
The fabrication comes from ideology, one that percieves everything as conflict and power struggle. It's why the news often seems like utter nonsense. I don't watch it anymore because I can't sustain a state of cringe that long, but anything that reduces its reach is something I can get behind.
If media publications want others to not get access to the content, they can choose to not add OG tags or just not let the Google or social media bots scrape the information.
User behavior has changed online, people are conditioned to tiktok / twitter length information snips, having off the cuff reactions, being the first to be outraged, etc.
It used to be that if someone linked something the BULK of the people who saw that link and were interested would click it and if they wanted to engage, they likely engaged on the site hosting the content first... now the bulk to the people don't click the link to read and instead engage only on their social media platform of choice.
This leads to:
* Increasingly divisive click bait titles * Less informed populace (although they FEEL more informed) * Echo chambers where people get re-enforced on their view of the TITLE (not content) because they are sharing and commenting with likeminded people rather than getting opposing opinions on the source website.
Not saying this bill is the solution but I disagree that it's being considered because people don't understand how linking on the web works.
It's public intervention to preserve a business model by deliberately inserting hurdles to the access of information.
I find myself reading comments more than news articles these days because almost every site is littered with modal popups, floating autoplay videos, dickbars covering most of the screen, consent banners, notification consent, location consent, not to mentioned ads, after every paragraph and sometimes almost impossible to scroll past without clicking. The internet has become extremely user hostile, and the true irony here (I can't believe I'm saying this) is that social media sites are focused on engagement so they're actually motivated to not make their UX a painful experience.
but this is the fundamental issue with the bill, if I am hanging out with my friends IRL and I bring up a news report, the discussion happens between us without them going to the media site. They are confused about what happens when offline behaviour moves online.
As I said if they were really bothered about the users reading the title/subtitle from the news report on the social media site, all they need to do is to stop the bot from crawling and not add OG tags. That way a user just sees a hyperlink. It was mostly media sites who added OG tags willingly so that their content looked good in the feed.
Good riddance. News sites lose, facebook loses, this feels like a net gain for sanity online.
There was a user here who said something about people reading an obviously unresearched news article in a newspaper, knowing it is saying bullcrap BUT kept reading other pieces from that paper. Because one bad article doesn't make the whole newspaper worthless.
Find yourself a couple of newspapers and read them. Scan the front page. Get a wholer picture of the news. It's sad really printed newspapers have vanished so extensively.
Meanwhile on FB, people read a headline and that's it.
I wonder if the lack of detail is intentional.
[1]: https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/campaigns/fair-re...
> the experience in Australia was that [Facebook's] removal [of news link sharing] had little impact on user engagement.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56165015
And Facebook knowingly and grubbily caused extra chaos as part of their effort to get their way:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-deliberately-caused-ha...
There is exceptionally little merit to this claim. They blocked links news outlets that would have subjected them to the link tax, and this block wasn't perfect. There was nothing to indicate that blocking sites that wouldn't have incurred the link tax was deliberate.
It was a super shady move and some think it was intentional.
[1] https://www.vox.com/recode/22287971/australia-facebook-news-... [2] https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/media-bargaining-cod...
Note: The law only applies to Google and Facebook, and only requires money to be paid directly to NewsCorp (not other media outlets that might be "impacted"). The federal government is now writing laws to collect money for a private company.
That's pretty blatant.
Murdoch owns 2/3rds of all news media here. His headlines ensured the centre-right election victory in 2011 which was terrible for many reasons.
That government then cancelled our already in-progress national fibre broadband rollout in favour of inferior VDSL2, because (at the time) higher bandwidth was seen as a threat to cable TV. This was a multi-billion dollar waste of taxpayer money, and we now have the ~70th worst internet in the world for the ~10th highest price.
Have a guess who owns the cable TV networks.
So then his headlines also ensured the centre-left election victory in 2022. Was that also terrible for many reasons?
> Have a guess who owns the cable TV networks.
Are you genuinely trying to make the claim that pay TV providers like Netflix and Disney Plus and friends don't work in Australia when they plainly do and have done for a long time? VDSL2 was always capable of it.
As conspiracy theories go I think your one needs some revising.
I wouldn't be surprised if the benefactors of this tripe are even more upset about that. Maybe they will take the uphill fight and challenge fair use, and so on and so on. The foundation they stand on will evaporate beneath them over time and they'll rely on lobbying and ever more pretentious foundations than they had before.
We all wonder how the newsrooms and newspapers of yesteryear were so well funded and so able to nail an absolute home run in a time long gone but the answer is right in front of us. So much of the "news" is just a conduit of public relations, from the advertisers and worse, straight to the audience. At the same time, so much news made by actual reporters is not great for advertisers, the government, important people, etal.
There are absolutely answers but nobody wants to pay for them with money or other means.
I get what they are trying to do. I don't think there's a way to do it that isn't going to make everything much worse.
Media: "You have to pay us to link to us now!"
Tech: "Fine, then I guess we won't link to you."
Media: shocked_pikachu_face.jpg
The problem is that they usually provide too much context, or not nearly enough. So you either get bored reading it, or don't have the right information to know what's really going on. ie, it's not personalized.
Let's take the stuff going on with SVB right now. Your typical news article is going to start with new information, provide some additional context briefing the reader on how it happened, then go further into depth on what the new info its providing, or just ramble on with additional filler. But the reader doesn't know if its going to actually provide more useful info to them. And that's an actually interesting and complex story. How many news articles do you come across thats pretty much all filler, especially on social media?
AI would make articles interactive. "Tell more more about fractional banking", "does the Fed's statement mean this is a bailout?", "what does this mean for the broader economy?", "what are economists/politicians saying about the government's actions?" are all questions you could ask and get reasonable responses.
With AI, propagandists will be able to feed you personalized disinformation in complete privacy.
If you think I’m overly pessimistic, recall what happened with Cambridge Analytics.
If all major corporate media and corporate social media companies disappeared tomorrow, except for the workers, I’d just smile and go about my day.
get the foreign influence out of Canada.
we don't need foreign-owned opaque AI deciding which stories to boost and which stories to not
Companies trying to maximize their profit >>> Authoritarian dystopia 24/7 surveillance governments ran by lunatics