Catholic Group Spends Millions on Dating App Data to Out Gay Priests | Hacker News Reader

Catholic Group Spends Millions on Dating App Data to Out Gay Priests

pcmag.com

61 pointspetodo129 comments

> a Grindr spokesperson said ... “We are infuriated by the actions of these anti-LGBTQ vigilantes”

Infuriated by these anti-LGBTQ vigilantes! How dare they use the data we sold them which included their locations and device ID and app usage!

What a joke...

I had the same response. What exactly should I be outraged about?

Both at the Catholic Church for thinking it's a good idea to snoop into the sexuality of their clergy - it's 2023 ffs, the Lutherans and Old Catholics [1] have shown that gays and women are no threat to spirituality - and at Grindr for not giving the slightest fuck about the safety of their users in a world where simply being gay can and does get people executed.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church

The clergy opt in to being part of this abusive sect. Nobody forces them to associate with the church.

If they don't like the treatment they receive at a job, they can quit. Having abusive and discriminatory bosses is a great reason to GTFO.

Leaving abusive and discriminatory bosses is certainly a good idea, but it doesn't mean that we can't be outraged by the actions of abusive and discriminatory bosses.

Congratulations, you can then also be outraged at the clergy who opt into being part of this abusive sect!

> The clergy opt in to being part of this abusive sect. Nobody forces them to associate with the church.

The situation particularly with Catholics is a bit more complex than that. A number of Catholic clergy originate from young boys raised in strongly religious families who discover they're gay and go into clergydom after they finish school in the (vain) hope that God may lessen their sexual desires.

They're not forced into church by conventional means, but rather by brainwashing.

> If they don't like the treatment they receive at a job, they can quit. Having abusive and discriminatory bosses is a great reason to GTFO.

Employment conditions outside of the church aren't great. Your choice is either a different faith (such as Old Catholicism) or academia.

There are exactly two things to be outraged about here: First, that the data was sold, and second, what the people who bought it used it for.

I would assume that any data sales have some sort of written agreement for what the data will be used for. In this case it would be that the people who signed the agreement lied.

> I would assume that any data sales have some sort of written agreement for what the data will be used for

Would you also assume that Grindr would have a privacy policy in the TOS which stipulates this as well? So, data buyer lied and thus made Grindr a liar to you, is Grindr the victim?

At what point do we have to say 'whoops, we got hacked/tricked/sloppy and your data is in the hands of bad guys, our bad' is not gonna fly any more. Shut them down. 1 Billion dollar fine next time Home Mart loses all customer files in a hack or SocialFace sells data to people who cause you to lose your livelihood for being gay.

I agree, fine/prosecute everyone from top to bottom. But you would need to prove that Grindr wasn't doing it's due diligence. (That probably wouldn't be too hard)

1. There may have been a sale without restrictions on purpose or usage of the data attached.

2. There may have been a sale to a third party, from which the group bought the data.

3. The group may have used a shell entity to buy the data.

Lenihan's reaction is priceless!

And this is why privacy matters, even if you think you have nothing to hide. There's no telling what someone else is going to have a problem with, no way to know if the data being sold about you is accurate or how it will be used against you, and no way to remove whatever data is out there or keep others from weaponizing it.

They went after sexual orientation this time, but the next time some group makes headlines because they decide to take advantage of the pervasive surveillance we all live under, it could just as easily be targeting our political views, our religion, our hobbies, our ancestry, our medial conditions, etc. More and more often people are going to buy up, collect, or steal data on whoever they don't like so they can subject them to harassment/abuse/violence/discrimination.

There's a multi-billion dollar a year industry around the buying and selling of even the most mundane aspects of our lives and it's sure not just for "ads".

> And this is why privacy matters, even if you think you have nothing to hide.

While I agree in principle, this is a bad example. They are homosexuals who are members of a homophobe group, obviously they do have something to hide.

Most of these priests probably did feel they had something to hide, but my point was that even those of us who feel we don't are just as vulnerable as these priests since it's impossible to know what might prejudice someone against you.

Since we're all being tracked and associated with an endlessly growing set of data points, with no assurance of accuracy, who knows what criteria could get your name pulled and added to the next group's hitlist?

As I said, I do agree in principle, it’s just this specific example that is not exactly the best for the argument ;)

> They are homosexuals who are members of a homophobe group

not a homogenous homophobe group thou.

maybe time for some soul searching/brand adjustment based on facts

But "I have nothing to hide" will the lazy and also righteous ones always say (until it hits them). And even if really true for their own small lives, not understanding that this is like a responsibility for the common cause and not their individual position, so everybody should actually care...

>Between 2017 and early 2020, Grindr was selling precise location data to ad brokers.

Well, that's quite scummy. Tends to enable bad actors in the first place.

In January 2016, Grindr announced that it had sold a 60% stake in the company for $93 million to a Chinese video game development firm, Kunlun Tech Co Ltd (formerly Beijing Kunlun Tech Co Ltd). In January 2018, Kunlun purchased the remainder of the company for $152 million. [0]

Wasn't exactly the best steward for such a platform. [1][3[4]

But hey, at least the founder feels bad about it. [2]

I was about to suggest that something which amounts to a giant blackmail database is surely a significant national security risk, and further research indicates that it actually changed hands again for that reason. [3][4]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindr

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China

[2] https://www.queerty.com/grindr-founder-joel-simkhai-believes...

[3] https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/06/grindr-sold-china-national...

[4] https://www.theverge.com/interface/2019/3/28/18285274/grindr...

Selling data on your users sounds like a pretty average move for tech startups though, the connection to "they did it because China discriminates against LGBT" is pretty far-fetched, especially since they still had a minority position when that was happening.

I expect they would've done the same if it had been a SF company that would've bought 60% of it in 2016.

>... "they did it because China discriminates against LGBT" is pretty far-fetched ...

I agree; that's not what I was trying to say, and I'm sure the primary motivator was money.

You're correct, other dating apps did and still do sell data. [0]

The point I was trying to make is that American consumers are already regarded as barely human from a privacy perspective by our own corporations. It gets worse from there (TikTok), and when you add a certain country's poor LGBTQ human rights record, it's just icing on the cake. By that point they really don't care.

---

Match Group, for all their evil, currently states:

Match Group does not sell the personal information of our users to any third party. [1]

Then in the next paragraph:

In particular, we do NOT use sensitive data, such as sexual orientation, racial or ethnic origins, religion, or precise geolocation data for advertising. [1]

I like the "precise" part. Sounds like selling personal information to me, but I'm not a lawyer.

[0] https://www.npr.org/2020/01/14/796427696/study-grindr-tindr-...

[1] https://mtch.com/privacy

But... but... they're catholic priests, they not only have a vote of celibacy but they also consider it a sin to have sex outside marriage! Why would a catholic priest use a Dating App?

Religion is a joke...

As an atheist I think anyone, including catholic priests, straight, gay or otherwise, can love or have sex or whatever they want to do with whoever they want to (as long as it's a consenting adult of course), but I'd say for them it's a bit of a cognitive dissonance, as it's supposed to go against their core beliefs, they're not just catholic, they became priests...

I find the whole thing extremely hypocritical though, trying to uncover gay priests on the one hand, which is wrong because they have a right to privacy, and then the Catholic Church protected and just moved somewhere else to pedophile priests who abused children instead of bringing them to justice.

Not sure why you got downvoted. As a Catholic, I've upvoted this. Its perfectly fair, and important, to call out hypocrisy. The church does done some things to address the abuse issue, but clearly it is woefully insufficient. We in the church should be concentrating on loving God and loving our neighbour, whatever their personal beliefs, orientation etc.

Lord, save us from your followers

Where is the hypocrisy? This is a private Catholic organization trying to expose individual priests & by extension, the Church. Just as lay Catholics exposed child abusing priests & the Church. Once again, it’s lay Catholics trying to clean up degeneracy the Church has turned a blind eye to. This being the case, wouldn’t that make you the hypocrite for taking issue with one & not the other?

I don't understand..

If a religion condemns homosexuality.. And you are homosexual.. Why would you want to subscribe to that religion ?

Even more baffling to me, why would you want to be a preacher of that set of ideas ?

I'm not religious.. I prefer the religious institutions be allowed to be as bigoted as is their nature, they must be allowed to show their true colors, so that people can see them for what they are and avoid them more readily.

Life is complicated i guess

Personally, as a Catholic, I really don't think God is very interested whether people are gay or straight, as long as their relationships are based on mutual love and respect, and commitment rather than people "using" each other. I don't believe the Catholic church condemns homosexuality per se, rather, there are some high profile vociferous condemners of homosexuality in the church. Unfortunately some of these are saying this ultra-conservative stuff to hide the fact they're actually abusers. People thought that about Cardinal Pell, we may never know the truth. The problem with religion is.... people! Look at most of the world's religions, both great and terrible things are done in the name of them.... There are some great people in the Catholic church, that's what keeps me there. There are also sadly some not-so-great people and certainly the church has lost a lot fo moral authority having failed to address its own internal failings particularly abuse

they are taught that homosexuality is bad and then, when they feel it themselves think ...

* that the life of a priest will cure them

* prevent them from having the opportunity for acting on their urges

* or at least that the righteous lifestyle makes up for their sinful thoughts

those people don't become priests despite being gay, they become priests because they are gay.

That's an interesting perspective, I didn't consider how the indoctrination plays into it.

Or they are completely faithless & degenerate & go into the priesthood knowing it will provide them cover & opportunity to indulge in depravity. That explanation is just as valid as yours mildly closer to the truth.

Wouldn't it be easier to have gay sex with men when you aren't a priest, so you don't have to hide it? Your scenario makes no sense. What benefit does a gay priest have to get access to gay sex that isn't 100 times better as not a priest but just an openly gay man?

I disagree with your using of the term "degenerate" to describe homosexuals, I also disagree with your using the term "depravity" to describe seeking consensual relations through an app, that seems unfounded.

Your logic is strange, if they are completely faithless (like me!), then they see no moral wrong with them being as they are, and so, since they're doing nothing wrong, there is no need for "cover".

As for opportunity, are you suggesting that the prist-population contains an higher than average homosexual non-pedophile men ?

(I assume the pedophiles are not using the app since they have ample supply of choir boys?)

Already discussed:

Catholic group spent millions on app data that tracked gay priests https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35081899

Catholic priest quits after “anonymized” data revealed alleged use of Grindr https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27908921

Catholic Church official resigns after cell data tracked him to Grindr, gay bars https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27902214

Just a reminder that Catholic priests are forbidden to have any family or romantic relationships.

So why are only gay priests outed in this way? Straight priests on a dating app would be equally offensive to the spirit in the sky.

a relative of mine has a husband who was supposed to join the clergy. He just dropped out of the program and married her. Now he's not a priest but a parochial worker. Might be that it is harder to find straight priests because it is possible to just drop out, marry and live a very respectable life. Now if you drop out and come out as gay well that would be a lot more difficult in that kind of community.

Catholic priests can't quit being priests. It's a permanent-sin status like divorce.

False on both counts!!!

First, divorce is a one-and-done sin. Someone who finalizes a divorce and confesses it is in a state of grace, much as someone who ate steak last Friday and confessed.it.

Now, a laicized priest is in no sin either, unless he attempts to hold himself out as a priest still. A man with a rescript from the Holy See is typically freed from all obligations of the clerical state, and that can and will often include celibacy, so a laicized priest is perfectly eligible for marriage, and perhaps a really good catch.

Do you have a source on this? Wikipedia is disagreeing with you https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimissione_dallo_stato_clerica...

I'm not sure where you see disagreement. It's not a personal sin for the priest to be dismissed. See #3, by request. Oh sure, a priest may be dismissed as a penalty, for something he did, namely sins such as abuse, but the dismissal itself is not sinful like procuring a divorce. The OP compared laicization to a divorce, and it's nothing like that at all.

Think of it this way: it's not a crime to go to prison, but one will certainly go to prison as the result of a crime.

But before becoming priest there is a quite long training program (often 5-6 years). Dropping out of it is quite common.

And even after becoming a priest, they can asked to be relieved for their obligations, including celibacy. But in this case they would have to find an other job.

Er, as a Catholic I'd be inclined to dispute this. I know a few ex-priests. One of whom has been happily married for years. Another became a C of E minister and also got married. Another left the priesthood for 17 yrs then eventually came back. My understanding is, its intended to be a lifelong commitment, but it doesn't always work out. A marriage can be annulled in the church if it is thought that one of both parties failed to fully understand what they were promising to each other or fully enter into the promise being a true commitment. That could be the case with ordaining a priest too. As well as the fact that being a priest is an extremely hard job as well as the celibacy requirement so some people come to the conclusion they are unable to fulfil the role properly.

"Eighty per cent of priests working at the Vatican are gay, although not necessarily sexually active, it is claimed in the book, In the Closet of the Vatican."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/12/four-in-five-v...

There aren't enough Catholic priests to go around anyway. So the priests are often hopping back and forth between parishes, figuratively and actually.

So its no real surprise they don't want to go after the straight ones, and yet, they must figure blowing off a few toes won't hurt too much.

The ones doing the outing are an independent group using their own money. They're choosing to target gay priests for their own reasons.

If they are Catholic, they are by no means independent. If the bishop doesn't like what they say/do, they won't be Catholic much longer.

While a bishop could arbitrarily excommunicate them, unless they've committed am obvious sin the Church is not going to invite a PR disaster by kicking out super rich members. This group is free to police only gay priests if that's their prerogative, and it'd still be an independent group using their own money.

I'm not talking about excommunication. Also, that penalty doesn't make an organization "non Catholic".

I'm talking about the Church's right to revoke the term "Catholic" which is not infrequently invoked, for example against RealCatholicTV and the National Catholic Reporter. It's not excommunication, just a representation and naming issue.

And I think the term you want is "financially autonomous" because no Catholic individual or group is "independent" unless they are schismatic.

I'm unsure of the Church's right to the brand "Catholic." You may be right there.

The "no Catholic is independent" is fairly ridiculous popery. Catholic's can have their own priorities and opinions seperate from the Church. Most do.

The Catholic Church, of course, cannot trademark or copyright Catholicism or its doctrine, and so in most locales she has no secular legal standing to restrict the use of the word or term "Catholic".

However, the bishop can and will have a say in which Catholic groups call themselves "Catholic" and represent themselves as Catholic groups within the Catholic Church, and so they have ecclesiastical authority to revoke that right of representation. Not a few groups have abused the honor and privilege of the Catholic name, and it's been revoked.

Now also, whether or not a group chooses to cease calling itself "Catholic" is up to the group entirely, and whether they choose to be obedient. The National Catholic Register notoriously brushed off their bishop's concerns and continues to use the name. Others simply rename to something that doesn't contain that word.

It's also the case that the bishop gets to say who can reserve the Blessed Sacrament, and have it in a chapel where Mass is said. For example, St. Joseph Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix had those privileges revoked, along with their Catholic identity, when they performed an abortion. That identity was later restored by the same bishop who revoked it, so it's all good.

Seems to me its possible the priesthood attracts a disproportionate amount of gay men, in which case , not following the celibacy rule is more commonly happening in gay rather than straight relationships? In which case people trying to catch priests not being celibate are going to find "richer pickings" on gay apps. (Sure its still likely driven by homophobia, and its still a horrible thing to do). Basically, many straight men wouldn't even consider the priesthood as they'd think celibacy is impossible and/or undesirable for them. For gay men I'd think its a different calculation. Historically, and still in many societies today, its been considered "unacceptable" to be gay. Therefore, if you're gay, what are you gonna do if you can't be openingly in a gay relationship? In that case, the priesthood might be a safe haven of sorts either if (a) they have a strong faith, some calling to be a priest, and think celibacy is not asking that much given they cannot openly have the relationships that are natural for them, or (b) its tacitly known that there are other gay men in the priesthood, and there are underground relationships going on. As a Catholic, I've met priest(s) that I'd be unsurprised to hear were gay, although, no suggestion they weren't being celibate, and its of no-one else's business IMHO (judge not lest thy be judged). I also heard a story of someone who went to Rome to train to be a priest then left in disgust when basically propositioned by men who were also training to be priests. His disgust was not as I understand from homophobia, but rather along the lines that they were basically using the seminary as a place for finding gay partners , rather than training to serve others as priest , in other words their motivation was completely wrong, and they had no apparent intention to follow celibacy.

I guess because pedo priest abusing altar boys makes for worse publicity than priest dating adult woman and it's double sin (since homosexuality ain't allowed besides sex outside marriage).

> why are only gay priests outed in this way

you know why.

Forbidden by a private organization. They are doing nothing wrong in a moral or a legal sense and who invades their privacy is.

Their privacy was invaded the minute it was collected and sold by the dating app. The Catholic group that used this data are assholes, but the people collecting, selling, and reselling the data are worse.

And another reminder or funfact: apparently a main reason to introduce the obligatory celibate for priests was: "the need to avoid claims on church property by priests' offspring".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celibacy

Yep, the celibacy is not about sex but about marriage; throughout history it was not that rare for priests to have unofficial spouses and kids, and at some times it wasn't even particularly shunned, but the concept of celibacy ensured that there couldn't be any legitimate kids i.e. heirs.

Also: it is pretty much only the Catholic church that mandates celibacy for priests. The Eastern churches allow married priests, but not bishops - while one tenet of Protestantism is the priesthood of all believers, where everyone should be able to talk with God and play a role in church affairs.

> Just a reminder that Catholic priests are forbidden to have any family or romantic relationships.

Latin Catholic priests have to be celibate, with rare exceptions (mostly married Protestant clergy who convert to Catholicism). But Eastern Catholic priests (but not bishops) are allowed to be married. Of course, only 1-2% of Catholics are Eastern and the other 98-99% are Latin, which is why people don’t know this

“Any family” is wrong because all Catholic priests are totally allowed to have family relationships with their parents, siblings, nieces/nephews, cousins, etc - just not be married.

Technically a widower with grown children can be ordained a (Latin Catholic) priest-so it isn’t even like children are absolutely impossible-although that’s a rather unlikely scenario in practice (but one I believe actually has happened before)

That's a silly generalization. Are you telling me that all the priests I know are wicked renegades, because they maintain loving, close bonds with their parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews and nieces? Ouch, that forbidding is harsh stuff. Wait until their bishop finds out! ...The bishop who visited his family on Christmas.

Also you've ignored and snubbed Ordinariate priests and many Eastern Catholic ones who are happily married with plenty of kids running around the parish.

Just the bay area had more than 700 lawsuits for child abuse filled against Catholic church employees in the last 3 years, so this catholic group and similar ones maybe should redirect their efforts into outing child molesters first.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcbayarea.com/investigatio...

Funny enough a vpn would have hid the service provider, but would have not solved this issue — as some influencers are advertising. It’s the gps data that makes these apps useful (find someone near) that was uses apparently to identify users.

Additionally, with device ID you could probably get other datasets that contain email name etc. That seems like a better route to go than the GPS tracks. But, maybe just having the app wasn’t invasive enough.

Having good enough opsec that you can't be identified just isn't realistic for normal people, we need to ban this stuff. I'm quite disappointed that GDPR seems to have just resulted in the addition of meaningless consent forms to every website

These people are as bad as those who post revenge porn online. Their activities would be illegal in Europe and should be illegal everywhere.

Surely this data would have been sold with some terms of use that might allow remedy through civil action even if the data could 'technically' be used in this manner. That being said it's a clear demonstration of why privacy matters and this is only mid-tier in the list of people you wouldn't want to get this data.

Goto love contract cults. Woman searches for men with reliable anti-gay emotional reaction. Then transfers social power to a contract-cult they bully gay men into, to uphold the one contract they actually care about: marriage | social support aka as a civilizational framework.

Almost 2000 years of stagnation and missery ensue.

Now a new contract cult is in town. Its actually more liberal and less stuck up. It has all the same features of the old, including parades and dogmatic screeching, but a little less violence & enforcing gender norms. All hell breaks loose.

Admitted this contract cult instance has men holding the bag a bit, but still to have the old contract cults go into this "Inquisition" for potential runaway servants is ridiculous.

Also noticeable, this only applies to "bad" times. As long , as there is a surplus for everyone, nobody gives a ** about "morals". Justice is only needed when push comes to shove.

edit: Downvote all you want, the reality of us as a retarded species does not go anywhere fast..

Trying to read this and make some sense from it has given me a headache.

Doesn't that behaviour make this specific "Catholic Laity and Clergy for Renewal" group a "hate group"?

So it should be possible to outlaw them, throw their members in jail, and so on?

Hate groups are (and should be) legal (just like "hate speech") until and unless their members, you know, actually break the law.

We don't believe in guilt by association in the USA, and freedom of association is constitutionally protected.

> ... actually break the law.

Ahhh. Kind of thought they had, as it seems like a case of (digital) stalking and harassment, clearly targetting a group of people based upon their LGBTQ status and religious affiliation.

No, trafficking in personal data is largely still legal in the US.

Being a hate group isn't illegal.

these comments need some HEAVY moderation. can't believe some of what I'm reading here.

And they did it tax free

I mean if this was the opposite, leftist tracking and attacking right wingers, the news coverage wouldn't be that negative, would it?

I don't understand how either politic side is relevant in this case. Unless being homosexual automatically makes you a "leftist"?

Isn't that a fact? Which US polticial faction supports them?

Notorious leftist Peter Thiel?

Not in all countries. Even though the Tories in the UK are currently very anti-trans, and veering hard-right on immigration, they're not touching gay rights.

One might add: gay marriage was legalised in the UK in 2014 by a coalition government led by the Conservatives.

you're grossly underestimating mankind's propensity for shooting itself directly in the foot.

> being homosexual automatically makes you a "leftist"?

god if only that were true

I mean, your irrelevant made-up scenario that you created to find a reason to get outraged at the left didn't happen, so who cares?

I would be completely unsurprised if there were more than a few chaste clerics on these dating apps, and they were fully (secretly) authorized to use the clandestine social networks to provide compassionate ministry to LGBTQ and HIV-positive individuals, and "outing" them completely destroys their ability to serve where they are most needed.

Or just chasing some girls. Too many jokes about catholic priests having good time with their housemaids.

Young cleric visits a seasoned priest. After the visit, priest can't find his utensils. Thus he mails him:

- I don't want to claim that you stole precious utensils. But after your visit I couldn't find them anymore!

The young cleric replies:

- I don't want to claim that you sleep with your housemaid. But had you slept in your bed, you'd know that utensils are there.

Tasteless and bigoted joke

  >...joke about honest men

I guess you've never heard of the many paedophile priest scandals then?

It would be a lot more fun if we could make similar jokes about pedophilia in the Muslim and Jewish communities - where it's arguably far more widespread and tolerated.

That we can't reveals an agenda.

  >It would be a lot more fun if we could make similar jokes about pedophilia in the Muslim and Jewish communities...

Oh. I agree with you there. Do you know any good ones?

Catholics are weird and have strange beliefs, but I'm not sure they're looking to find women for casual sex on a gay dating app.

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