Enforcing net neutrality is just treating a symptom of the monopoly. Other countries fix this by having the shared physical infrastructure controlled by a government entity that rents access to any company that wants to sell service as an ISP.
Enforcing net neutrality is just treating a symptom of the monopoly. Other countries fix this by having the shared physical infrastructure controlled by a government entity that rents access to any company that wants to sell service as an ISP.
Competition itself can't protect against net neutrality violations, because even small-marketshare ISPs can break your startup's product for some customers.
Almost none of these customers will ever even learn that the failure is the ISP's fault. And even if they do, who will switch ISPs just to use some not-yet-proven product by a new startup?
Meanwhile your competitor's product will work well, either because they were too big to mess with or because they paid whatever the ISP was demanding. Maybe you should too!
This is why Europe needed net neutrality rules, and actually passed stronger rules than the U.S., even though the system you describe was prevalent there. Amusingly, before the rules existed, the increased competition in Europe had actually led to more net neutrality violations there (specifically, blocking or throttling things like VOIP and BitTorrent) because ISPs in that competitive landscape were under more pressure to cut costs!
My source on this is Stanford's Barbara van Schewick, who is a leading expert on net neutrality policy and whose work informed both the U.S. and E.U. rules.
The ISP doesn't need to be anything close to a monopoly to get leverage for extortion and (in the process) mess up competition at the application layer.
Yes, we need more competition, but we still need net neutrality rules.
Competition improves prices and service. Net neutrality rules protect competition at the application layer, and they ensure that ISPs are really competing on how good they are at moving data, not just on how good they can get at shaking down the application layer.
Nobody is gonna complain about their ISP when the conversation is simply this: “Aw, shucks, [startup-product] doesn’t work, at least [established-product] works everywhere. The new thing is probably crap anyway.”
Now if every store in a 100 mile radius only had Coke, then switching to Pepsi just got a lot harder despite the two products being literal drop-in replacements for one another.
The result is that said provider is basically running a regional monopoly, but this doesn't get regulated against because the total ISP market isn't monopolized.
Some non negligible percentage of people might choose the one that only works with most websites, due to some other reason, such as they have reduced prices.
That non-negligible amount of people on this other service, could still be leveraged by that ISP to strongarm websites.
An ISP grows a large user base by doing aggressive price competition, then starts shaking down services, rate limiting their traffic if they don't pay up. The services are over a barrel and pay, after which the ISP's users don't see slowdowns and have no reason to switch. Meanwhile they use some of the shakedown money to lower prices and get more users. Smaller ISPs don't have as much leverage to extract the danegeld so they can't compete.
It makes perfect sense to prohibit that business model as an antitrust measure.
Yeah, we’ve already seen this in the Comcast/Netflix debacle and Deutche Telekom vs the world. In fact a lot of large incumbents do this.
> Meanwhile they use some of the shakedown money to lower prices and get more users.
If things were even so rosy. The shakedown money is used for larger profits and monopoly positions to get more users.
They don't block the conferencing systems in the regions where they have an ISP monopoly, they block them for all their users because they have a monopoly on the network path to those users. The conferencing system needs to be able to reach 100% of its own customers' users or they'll be bleeding customers faster than the ISP does, so they blink first and pay, after which the ISP's customers have no reason to switch because the conferencing system is working.
https://techcrunch.com/2014/04/28/netflix-inks-peering-deal-...
But another issue is that if it isn't banned, it can happen in private. The ISP doesn't need to actually throttle the target's traffic if it can credibly threaten to and force them into a contract with an NDA, and they have the incentive to require that when their demands are unpopular, so we have no way to know how widespread it is.
Yes, and the problem in the US has been that every time a local municipality tries this, they get sued by the ISPs, and since the ISPs have much deeper pockets, the suits never get to the point where they could drive meaningful change with a ruling against the ISPs. That's a big reason why net neutrality has been pushed in the US: because it's the best that can be done given that a better fix has failed.
It's a problem that needs to be dealt with at the state, or ideally federal level. It needs significant regulatory change and a large investment.
You mean the levels that produced all the sweetheart deals the ISPs currently have? The ISP monopolies are products of state and federal (mostly state) intervention in the name of supposedly necessary things like "enabling internet access".
Sort of like Biden canceling student debt by executive order when the constitution says congress has the power of the purse. You can assign the blame to Biden, Republican AGs, the Supreme Court, or the authors of the constitution. Doesn’t make much difference, so long as the issue is correctly understood. A day in court makes sense.
There was a contract between every municipality and ISP with an explicit term that the municipality couldn't finance a competitor? That seems unlikely.
The so-called big govt states subcontract to private companies and let them make large profits.
Alas the US is fucked. In 2004 the FCC agree to Verizon's ask, that FCC exclude fiber to the home because it was expensive to build out. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/23/technology/fcc-shields-fi...
It keeps getting worse. In 2020 the FCC exclude a variety of dark fiber & ds3 owners from unbundling regulations, phased in over 8 years. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25...
Monstrous behavior. Society needs some safeguards. Letting old incumnents do what they want forever is an filthy disgraceful low place to be, especially for such a core utility. Living under this degrading pro-monopoly regulatory environment has been a major heartbreak of my life, and the people who should be doing something to protect one of our most prized embodiments of democracy- our ability to communicate with each other- keep making the situation worse.
This is 100x worse than Chicago selling the parking meter system to private interests for 100 years, which they recouped in 6. At least that was a limited area, at least that doesnt control speech & access (there are alternatives to driving then street parking). https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2022/5/26/23143356/ch... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34988984
Absolute travesty. Humanity getting beatten in the face with a stick by shitty corporations forever. The FCC backing them up. I dont even know if it's possible to get these decisions changed.
In New Zealand we have a national fibre network covering about 90% of the population. That was built by four private entities to a set of minimum specifications and with some government subsidies. These companies are not allowed to sell retail services, must offer wholesale access to all ISPs, and have their wholesale pricing regulated.
https://www.speedtest.net/global-index#fixed
Other rankings seem to more or less agree on that too.
Meanwhile millions of Americans are stuck with 1.5 Mbps DSL or really expensive Satellite internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_In...
Not that all speeds above 20 Mbps are equal, but there are heavy diminishing returns. IMO, I would rank countries by percentage of 50+Mbps internet connections.
You probably need to measure lower percentiles to get an idea of how bad it can get.
Suppose you were looking at countries median car top speed. Fining one countries median is 150 MPH vs 156 just don’t tell you much when you can’t drive that speed on public roads. Or in internet terms Netflix etc isn’t sending 8k stream let alone multiple 8k streams.
On the other hand many internet connections can’t handle a single 4k or even 1080p stream so percentage of connections over X threshold is more impactful.
E.g.
* Country/ISP A has 4 gigabit fiber for $100/month, and 1 gigabit for $50/month.
* Country/ISP B has 4 gigabit fiber for $100/month, and 1 gigabit for $90/month.
In country A a lot more people are going to opt for 1 gigabit - it's way cheaper and still good enough - therefore their average speed stat is going to be lower even though the actual options are strictly better than in country B.
If government wants to do that by contacting out a bunch of the effort, ok!
Government trying to insure good baselines, not just regulatorily, but actually doing the work & owning the system (again even if contacted) feels like it's ever more necessary step to keep a healthy society.
No it isn't. NPCI is owned by a consortium of banks.
But it could work pretty well if it's funded by bonds it has to pay back out of subscription fees and a default causes everyone involved to be fired.
Your second thought sounds like a good idea. Let's have another competitor (government) funded by private entities via debt equity (bonds) which is paid back by customer receipts (profits) where failure equals unemployment. Actually, this is starting to sound like a business, but with more steps and the power to pass laws affecting its own operating environment. What's the advantage to having the government be the competitor?
Voters choose management instead of shareholders. Maybe they'd make different choices. Diversity is good.
Yes in many place that would drive out current businesses.
If we are worried about inefficiency, maybe we make government compete with itself. Have it's initiatives be charters, and issue new overlapping charters over time. Governmemt is not required to have a stasist implememtation; dynamic behavior can be part of the system.
They're two independent things. If a different management style would produce a public benefit then do it without access to the taxing power. If using tax money to subsidize some service is in the public interest (spoiler alert: it rarely is) then the subsidy should go to anyone providing that service.
> Yes in many place that would drive out current businesses.
Which is the problem -- because then they're no longer competing, and it's the competition on equal terms that keeps them honest. If they're actually helping people then people should have no trouble voluntarily choosing their unsubsidized offering. Without that they're just an unregulated monopoly susceptible to inefficiency and corruption.
> If we are worried about inefficiency, maybe we make government compete with itself. Have it's initiatives be charters, and issue new overlapping charters over time. Governmemt is not required to have a stasist implememtation; dynamic behavior can be part of the system.
Charters where funding only goes to the politically connected are effectively corruption, and whoever is getting fat off the cash will exert their influence to make sure no one capable of doing it more efficiently can get access to the funding. Charters where funding goes to anyone who signs up to provide the service are effectively tax credits.
Now here we are 40 years later and AT&T has virtually reassembled itself and the Equal Access laws have been completely obliterated. I wonder if there's a correlation?
Read the comment about NZ. Or refer to Sweden.
Besides, a government run by the “majority” tends to trample on the rights of the minority. I don’t just mean racial minorities. I mean anyone who holds minority viewpoints.
So it seems. Then let's not blame governments and democracies in general.
More seriously, private ISPs in a (local) government owned open access network does not mean the (local) government controls and observes everything.
If you are afraid of the local government, run for office.
Personally I relate to the American route of the last 200 years and believe in limited government power (you know, the same government power that abused it's authority when it gave out monopiles on communication infrastructure. I don't see how it's abusing power should result in...giving it more power?????). I posted above about how my house is denied US mail delivery because when my mother was dying of cancer she couldn't get to the mailbox in a timely manner and she dared appeal. Petty tyrants gonna tyrant and there are limited battles one person can fight.
Though it would be nice if multiple companies were allowed to lay fiber. It seems existing govt regulation prevents that, thereby creating the monopoly people complain of.
Multiple companies are allowed to lay fiver. It’s not regulation that prevents overbuilding but economics.
Other than that, what specific regulation are you referring to?
More often than not it’s the economics that prevent overbuilding an existing monopoly rather than regulatory barriers.