Graduate students at the University of Southern California have won a union
jacobin.com
jacobin.com
I had worked at a natural foods co-op for a few years between undergrad and grad school, and although my marketing role paid more than some floor jobs, I was blown away when I started as a teaching assistant and made essentially the same wage. I could make the same money grading papers as I had in the real world? No way! Then I entered the private sector again where my starting wage was twice what I made in academia. And I thought I was rich. Until a few years later when I was making multiples of my former hourly rate.
Lots of folks in these roles have no idea what their time is worth. I kick myself for being so naïve at the time.
Academic labs are basically indenture shops that universities and the government use to avoid paying the market price for labor. And of course the greatest profits accrue to commercial companies that apply the work that was paid for by the government and performed by underpaid grad students.
Grad school may be interesting and even fun, but it can also have very high opportunity cost, making it something of a sucker's game for many, at least financially.
The only thing worse would be trying to stay in academia and being trapped in a purgatory of postdoc and adjunct positions, never making it to the top of the pyramid scheme.
> Total Ballots Counted:1721
> Votes for Labor Union:1599
> Votes Against:122
93% for, with 60% turnout. Wow!
81,283,501 for Biden, 74,223,975 for Trump, 158,429,631 total votes, 252,274,000 as best proxy for eligeble voters (18+ us pop) per [1]
[1] https://www.fec.gov/resources/cms-content/documents/federale...
So the department never gave us more work than the maximum allowed by the agreement between the union and the university - in fact, usually they put 10-15 hours of leeway every semester, because they didn't want to be in breach of the contract.
However, this was pretty exceptional. In most cases, we got either a 102 hour/semeter contract or a 204 hour/semester contract, with only 90-95% of those hours actually worked (in the Physics dept at least).
I worked my extra hours as a musician, and actually made decent money compared to my graduate stipend. But it was limited to about 4 hours a week. And it was a source of recreation and "escape" that I needed.
But I just looked at the career path and thought "I don't want to be poor long into my 40s in the vague hope I will eventually be able to get a job with actual pay and have nice things".
People act like there is a nobility to this. But there isn't. It's just a way of reserving certain professions for people with wealthy parents. And it means instead of having the most motivated, the brightest etc, you just get well-off kids who can't be bothered to make the jump to other careers. Not that I am bitter... :)
You see something similar in Medicine here in the UK: terrible pay and crazy hours for the first 10 years, then you get a pay-off. That's great if mum and dad will cover your rent until you're ~34, but otherwise you can kiss goodbye to being a doctor and having a family.
> YONI HIRSHBERG I think those types of things fall outside of the scope of labor negotiations. So the contract will include things like our wages and working conditions.
I think this is the way forward if we want widespread unionization. Unions have to focus on making the lives of their members better. Wading into culture wars, even if you think you are doing good, will in the long run cause division and weaken the unionization effort.
So what a grad student union can do about inequality in the LA community at large is to organize their members to vote as a single block that politicians will want to court. And if they're too small on their own, they partner with other union leaders who share similar belief to recommend their members vote as one big block on specific issues. That's what community organizing means - organizing a block of votes for a shared purpose.
Hmm. If a pastor uses the church pulpit to convince their flock to vote a specific way, that's okay from your definition. If a well-loved ceo at a company spontaneously meets with the employees in the breakroom, over their free coffee and free lunch, and decides to use that pulpit to convince people to act a certain way politically, that's okay from your definition.
There is a saying: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" [1] which is "used to say that one person or situation should be treated the same way that another person or situation is treated".
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/what%27s%20good%2...
I don't think they're saying that, just that it does occur. It's actually illegal for churches to convince their flock to vote a certain way specifically[0], since they get such sweeping tax benefits.
[0] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-el...
Can you point to where GP made a value judgment about what is and isn’t “okay” in their post? It kind of seems like you’re arguing against something that nobody said.
If I were to say “The catholic church has had a lot of influence over architecture decisions”, would your response be “I see that you hate Frank Lloyd Wright”?
Does describing how a plane flies mean that I like fighter jets?
The GP clearly wrote how a student's union can affect the members actions, outside of the union's purpose, through using the bully pulpit. That is literally what they wrote. By the same logic as what they wrote in their comment, the bully pulpit can be used to push different beliefs. I've answered your question about that twice now. Please don't try to engage me in red herring arguments.
I’ve now asked you in multiple ways what you meant by that phrasing!
edit: I’ll make it even easier, since you don’t seem to want to answer that question. How about this:
What was the topic of these sentences?
> If a pastor uses the church pulpit to convince their flock to vote a specific way, that's okay from your definition. If a well-loved ceo at a company spontaneously meets with the employees in the breakroom, over their free coffee and free lunch, and decides to use that pulpit to convince people to act a certain way politically, that's okay from your definition. There is a saying: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander"
To clarify what I mean by “what is the topic”, I mean
1. What was your purpose in bringing up your example of a well-loved ceo when nobody else had? What were you trying to illustrate?
2. If you weren’t commenting on somebody’s perceived moral statement, did you share the goose and gander quote as a completely unrelated fun fact for everyone to enjoy?
Was it some sort of fun little moral lesson unrelated to the rest of the content of your post, like the text on a popsicle stick or Snapple cap?
> I’ve now asked you in multiple ways what you meant by that phrasing!
You might want to use far fewer words, then, if you want to know the meaning of a word. Using paragraphs to ask that question has a very high noise to signal ratio.
okay [1]
also OK also O.K. also ok
Word forms: okays, okaying, okayed
1. ADJECTIVE
If you say that something is okay, you find it satisfactory or acceptable.
OK [2]
exclamation (also okay)
OK exclamation (AGREEING)
used to show that you agree with something or agree to do something:
> 1. What was your purpose in bringing up your example of a well-loved ceo when nobody else had? What were you trying to illustrate?> 2. If you weren’t commenting on somebody’s perceived moral statement, did you share the goose and gander quote as a completely unrelated fun fact for everyone to enjoy?
Those are for the exact same reason. The first shows a parallel to what the GP posted but in an unexpected context, which is mentined to show the unintended consequences when using the bully pulpit of a union in a context that it shouldn't be used. The actual article mentioned that even the union organizer in the story denounced this. The second showed the long-held societal wisdom on this, that when one pushes their beliefs using a questionable method in one context, that same method will be applied by others to additional areas in unexpected ways. There was a link that contained an explanation for that.
As I wrote, "By the same logic as what they wrote in their comment, the bully pulpit can be used to push different beliefs."
> Was it some sort of fun little moral lesson unrelated to the rest of the content of your post, like the text on a popsicle stick or Snapple cap?
And, it is now clear that you are intentionally not engaging in honest conversation.
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/okay
[2] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/ok?q=...
Congrats on not answering my question at all, in any fashion. Condolences on not baiting anyone into a pointless argument about CEOs or whatever, it was just too far a stretch to get from your outrage to anything remotely on-topic here.
Religious leaders are in no way barred from discussing politics from the pulpit by the way. They are prohibited from speaking for or against individual candidates by name or risk losing their non-profit status but they can definitely advocate for their positions on certain issues and leave it to their members to conclude which candidates that most aligns with (and given how peer pressure / communication works, it’s not a secret which candidate that turns out to be). Anything else would be a 1A problem. And religious leaders can ALSO express personal views about what their preferred candidate happens to be outside of the pulpit. And Trump made it even less problematic for politically active religious leaders [1].
CEOs also definitely advocate for/against policy within the company. “I think legislation X is bad for us / our industry”. Some CEOs even cross the line and try to retaliate against/incentivize for your vote (it’s hard with anonymity in general but much easier with mail in ballots).
None of this must apply to unions which regularly endorse candidates by name and have so for a very very long time.
So regardless of good or not, all this does happen. I haven’t thought well enough about what kind of electioneering regulations is good or bad, but generally I’d do some research on countries that I view as having a healthier democratic process (Canada, France, Germany, Norway, etc) to figure out how they deal with the various issues.
Anyway, I don’t know what you’ve taken away from my post or why it triggered you so. What could I clarify there to help you interpret the post in the spirit that it was intended to?
[1] https://www.nonprofitissues.com/to-the-point/can-pastor-disc...
I say this as someone that is quite pro-union, and someone that was quite involved in my student union when I was studying. We were one of if not the most powerful student unions in the country, with tens of millions of dollars of annual revenue. It was very much a launchpad for those aspiring to be career politicians. “Stupol” is a legitimate entrypoint into “real” politics and a large percentage of our elected representatives cut their politician teeth being involved in their student union. Thus, you end up with a bunch of naive wannabe politicians that quite easily get lost in showboating and “the bigger picture”, often taking away time, attention, or resources that could be put toward more directly helping the members.
We had all major services separated from the student union. Restaurants were run by a company with a mix of professionals and student representatives in the board. Student housing was mostly owned by a foundation controlled by the student unions in the area. This helped to insulate them from day-to-day politics.
There were only a few direct member services. When you have tens of thousands of members, there are not many things you can do in a centralized way without a field organization. Most of the time, it was better to support the work of actual student-run organizations than to try to provide the services yourself.
Then there was the political mission. We had two largely separate groups: one focused on coordinating the work of student representatives in university administration, while the other tried to influence local and national politics with varying degrees of success.
The most controversial part was the legal mandate to participate "in the implementation of the educational mission of the university [..] by preparing students for an active, informed and critical citizenship." Some factions used that to justify involving the student union in general politics.
Regardless of what one thinks of that, student unions certainly help to train more competent career politicians. Finnish student unions, as well as the youth/student organizations of political parties, are structured to mimic national and local politics. In a few years, you reach the top, and you get to see how the system works from the perspective of top decisionmakers. That's the kind of experience you don't get in a decade of actual politics.
Similarly, people who were interested in student politics quickly learned to have effective meetings. This was most obvious in the lower levels of university administration which often involved professors outside the administrative track. The average professor (or the average software engineer) has little idea what to do in a meeting, and even less idea how to run one. The result is a lot of incoherent rambling that wastes everyone's time.
I don’t know if it was union members in favor of immigration or union leadership in favor of immigration.
On the other hand, tuition increases were going to happen anyway, so you might as well get something from it.
In any case, it's good to see people standing up for themselves. Your move, USC.
> On the other hand, tuition increases were going to happen anyway, so you might as well get something from it.
Your second point completely nullifies your first point. If this causes tuition to rise to the same level it was going to reach anyway, students are paying nothing for this.
the entire dispute, hence the article, is that they are not paid enough and the value of their work is basically dwindling in comparison to the tuition that they would otherwise be paying and comparable work. there are two options - either lower their tuition, which is not helpful since they do not pay, or raise their wages. USC did not comply, and thus they had to unionize and force the issue.
the other pro-union argument is that those who are working who are not graduate students will benefit as the wage that's being paid will also need to reflect the non-union wage since there are non-graduate students, like lab techs, who often do the exact same job as someone in grad school in a lab.
So what? Either tuition hits the same level that it would have anyway, or it doesn't.
The first possibility makes your first sentence meaningless. The second one makes your second sentence meaningless.
One of my first thoughts was about how 'tenure' works. I once had a horrible professor that provided next to zero value for his classes. (He would literally just sit at the head of the class and repeat "Read your books! What you need is in there!" With nothing else added, ever.) Yet he remained on the payroll, thanks to his tenure.
I fear a union will bring similar inefficiencies here.
For grad students who are serving as teaching assistants or as full "instructors of record," they are still being paid less and given substantially fewer benefits than tenured faculty.
There are many factors driving the increase in the "list price" for undergraduate tuition — I doubt that the take-home pay of grad students and their health insurance are significant factors.
One of the things the union provides is the ability for students to get "student jobs" that are more geared towards entry-level work and easier to get. Almost everyone has these jobs at least over the summer, often also part-time during the school year.
Another big thing the union provides are food coupons so you can get discounted meals at participating restaurants. Fully funded from said tax on student work.
Every once in a while the union organizes protests against tuitions and such.
The biggest outcome is that people choose to be students, at least on paper, until 26 when you age out of benefits. Because the tuition is free and the benefits are amazing.
Good to see them pushing back but I guess I don't see the system as fixable without a complete overhaul.
Their leverage is significant.
That's an interesting point, but can you provide a source of that? (Just curious as a fellow graduate student)