Study finds mushrooms magnify memory by boosting nerve growth | Hacker News Reader

Study finds mushrooms magnify memory by boosting nerve growth

medicalxpress.com

319 pointswglb168 comments

As someone who has been very interested in diet and health from many perspectives, be it general health and wellness when I was younger, competitive cycling and rowing, and more recently competitive bodybuilding, I have come to a tragically bland conclusion.

Every day it seems like there's a new study about a new food that will revolutionize XYZ. Meanwhile, most people don't sleep well, dont drink enough water, overindulge in alcohol, don't get enough excercise, and don't get much sunlight.

I think it should be everyone's primary focus to sleep well, drink water, get outside, get active, and eat generally decently. The huge cognitive and physical gains that would come from these basic activities far surpass any marginal benefit from optimization. I hate to say it, but if you're not eating a good amount of vegetables and fruit, decent protein, sleep, etc, no amount of mushrooms will catch up to that detriment.

Now if these fundementals are in place, findings like this are truly fascinating! I just see so many people put the cart before the horse far too often.

> Meanwhile, most people don't sleep well, dont drink enough water, overindulge in alcohol, don't get enough excercise, and don't get much sunlight.

A couple I know in their mid-60s were both diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. They were both sedentary, overweight and ate horribly. They embarked on an ambitious diet and exercise plan, have both lost a lot of weight and are both no longer diabetic. It truly is fantastic, and I'm happy for them.

One of them is convinced that people just don't know that they can beat type 2 diabetes; she wants to publish a book about what they've done. I keep trying to tell her it's not a lack of information, but a lack of will for most people, that she and her husband are very much outliers in that regard. Her publishing their method won't change things for hardly anyone.

I'm 59 years old and have been a moderate athlete my whole life; I keep my weight decent (not as low as I'd like but well under official obesity levels), eat pretty well, get enough sleep. I am having a medical procedure done tomorrow (that's completely unrelated to anything here), and the nurse who did intake for the hospital was shocked that I don't take any prescription medications. I call that a win.

I completely agree, but to add to this I also think it's an issue with information overload. Popular culture and pop science is all about quick fixes and crazy complicated "30 day transitions". It causes people to think that there are 3 types of people:

1) People who are naturally fit without effort. 2) People who have crazy gnarly diets and regiments. 3) Everyone else.

This causes them to give up as it seems like far too steep of a climb. It's incredibly sad because the basics of "eat a little less, a little cleaner, and go for a walk" would kickstart a revolutionary change in most people. If you're maintaining weight on 3500 calories, it doesn't take a ton of work to start losing a bit of weight, even if its at a slow rate. People just see the first step as insurmountable.

Not to mention the millions of fashion models and actors who take steroids then say they have a perfectly attainable physique and it was all hard work. Alas, that is a disucssion for another post.

P.S. Hope the procedure goes well!

Learned Helplessness everywhere you look. It's why, here in the US, we won't rise up like the French as our own government also looks to raose our retirement age. Not sure how you correct this across such large demographics?

It seems like that “lack of motivation” applies to many other medical conditions as well, and people like me who actually want to and have and will commit to the “hard fix” are confused about just how “incurable” something is, and whether something like surgery really is necessary.

Thoracic Outlet Syndrome for example can typically be cured with either months of exercise and stretching, and being cognizant of one’s posture throughout the day, OR a relatively simple and quick and minimally-invasive surgery. I get why most people opt for the surgery and probably even lie to themselves by saying surgery is the only pragmatic option.

I've had orthopedic's tell me I needed an epidural steroid injection without even bothering with an MRI (same guy told me to, "Take it easy on the PT." despite the fact that PT and a systematic return to exercise is what got me pain free).

So I'm personally just as likely to blame the so-called specialists here. They can't bill insurance when people start taking their health into their own hands.

I've had orthopedics (a total of 3) tell me I had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome when it was actually Thoracic Outlet Syndrome

Preaching To The Choir

I don't think it's a lack of will. It is more an environment that is overwhelming most peoples capacity of will, as well as simply just material circumstances that make all those changes even more difficult, or impossible. Inbetween working long times, low wages, unavailability of healthy food in a lot of places, car-centred culture, you will need absolutely crazy amounts of will power. The solutions to these problems are not individual, but systemic.

I struggle so much with figuring out how to fit enough fruits and especially veggies into each day. Really fruit isn't an issue now that I think about it. It's nature's candy. Veggies, though I do love them, are harder to get enough of EVERY day.

As an athlete and lifter, do you think smoothies destroy a lot of the benefit of veggies? Say I want to make a smoothie each day that is packed with spinach and broccoli and carrots. I have to clearly pulverize the crap out of that to get it drinkable. I love the idea of that, because I can get a fair amount of veggies in a smoothie... But I've heard some say that doing this can destroy a lot of the nutrients from oxidation as you blend the veggies which is also pulling oxygen into the whirlpool created by blending. Not sure if that makes sense.

Aside from making a really veggie packed smoothie each day, I struggle with how to fit all the veggies into each days diet?

I do eat a good amount of oatmeal in general... Try to have some fruit and veg every day. Very little red meat. Any pointers you could offer in general are appreciated and I'm sure others here would appreciate the extra information as well!

When cooking at home, i tried to keep the vegetables as the primary ingredient by weight.

I am quite fond of kichdi, a dish with lentils, rice, vegetables all cooked together.

Chuck in all the vegetables, rice, bengal gram (2:1 rice to lentil) salt, spice and ghee. I just dump a ton of vegetables in the kichdi

I personally don’t really think it’s a problem to blend them. In general, it’s still far better than not getting enough in at all.

I think the important thing to think about is that not all vegetables are created equal. The nutrient profile of spinach versus lettuce isn’t even comparable for example. Then you have fibrous veggies like broccoli that can be great for digestion. So a diversity is amazing, making your core dark leafy greens and adding ancillary vegetables on top.

One hack is that spinach wilts down super nicely. If you’re ever behind in a day, olive oil, cup or two of spinach, and some garlic and you’ll have a very enjoyable way to cram nutrients.

I find I can put quite a bit of kale in a fruit smoothie before I can even tell it's there.

Could not agree more.

The problem is that taking care of yourself to that extent is a massive undertaking that often completely exhausts your functional capacity irregardless of the benefit.

IN MICE

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jnc.15767

Thank god we have these close relatives to experiment on!

Who's experimenting on whom? They're working on the Ultimate Question as we speak.

;) It think we all know what the answer is.

But left the fiddly bits and fjords to another species.

They're used for research precisely because they have a great deal of similarities to humans. Also:

- they have a short gestation period and produce lots of young making it easy to breed them

- their opex is low

- they're easy and relatively safe to handle

- they're well understood

- there are numerous genetically engineered variants are available

- And humans don't give a shit if we mass kill them because they are not overly cute.

Otherwise we'd just use humans or apes or something more similar to us.

Monkeys are used in research but they can be hard to work with. I've heard stories of flinging poop and them pulling implanted electrodes out of their brain

If only I were a mouse. With all the research papers I've seen on HN over the years, I'm pretty sure I could live to be 200.

Survivor bias. I suspect there’s like a 100:1 ratio of dead laboratory mice to 200yr old mice.

I think 100:1 ratio for "long and happy life" among lab mice would be hilariously optimistic.

Because of their speed of reproduction, their lack of reusability, and the fact that in order to cure diseases you first have to inflict them, lab mice are basically in a constant state of massacre.

They're not even livestock. They're more on the tier of stationery.

I'll be patiently waiting for the vermintide - the day the rats fight back.

Remember that all of this research is done on mouse strains in highly controlled lab environments. Many of these results won’t even apply to other strains from what they were tested leave alone mice in the wild.

PS: strains means stable inbred clone producing animals.

Is this for the purpose of more easily identifying causative factors? Kind of like always developing/debugging in the same environment for reproducible results?

Yes. But also I think there is certain amount of selection for mice that will behave and cooperate with lab protocols. Meaning, mice strains, that for instance, aggressively destroy stuff, or sleep too much will not be used.

Yes, but at the same time most inbred strains have genetic disorders precisely because they are inbred. E.g. the most commonly used strain C57BL/6 develops age-related hearing loss. To avoid this, there are other lab strains like CD-1, which are deliberately bred to maintain a controlled level of genetic heterogeneity.

Lab mice have unnatural long telomeres.

That make them far more resistant to damaging pharma (lot’s of cell repair)

The downside is they all die of cancer (telomere length is a stop to cell replication)

Of the studies I've read, its my opinion that we actually have the knowledge to drastically expand lifespans, but because resources are finite and strained, the decision to use man made drugs to alter certain chemical reactions in the body which fix one problem but cause others, is what's limiting our lifespans, along with glyphosate added to the supply chain at different stages. If you cant afford to go organic, your lifespan and your kids lifespans and their number of offspring will be reduced.

Found the person who has never taken mushrooms

You mean you found the person who approaches bold claims with an appropriate amount of skepticism in a world increasingly inundated with hyperbolic or even outright misleading headlines? And then goes the extra mile to share their findings and constructively communicate their concerns to others who might also be subjected to the same hyperbole?

Yep, found them.

This place has become even worse than Reddit as karma farming goes…

Yeah I've noticed a serious uptick in the past ~2 years of bots and blatant shilling.

HN is arguably not as popular as reddit, but also not as complex, so smaller efforts to game the system work better.

What's the point?

I remember being excited when my karma crossed 1000 here for no reason. Nothing happened, obviously.

I wasnt karma farming.

Do you recall the time when one needed a certain karma score in order to downvote?

I never downvote, but there are times when I wanted to - but couldnt, even though I am way beyond the initial karma limit which was ~400 or something...

I've been on this site daily for 15 years.

I still never feel the need to upvote or downvote very often.

I also think its criminally funny that the HN forum lacks so many features of moderation, comment management, topic curation etc of even such of the companies they fund.

It works - because its a self-entrenched psuedo-sapio-walled-garden...

I love HN - but lets not act like its flawless.

You've been here since 2020...

me: https://i.imgur.com/qrNUzma.png

It was pretty obvious I was talking about the misleading headline at the OP. How did you come up that my comment was targeted at you I have no idea…

You don't generally "take" lion's mane mushrooms, you just eat them. As they are tasty, and won't give you any trips, neither to the emergency room or to nirvana.

Edit: apparently this is a thing now, and this culinary treat is also a nootropic fad.

Ya I accidentally stumbled into "taking" lions mane daily. In the process of breaking a caffeine addiction I sought out anything that was "coffee-like" as a replacement habit, and of the options, one that was simply one type of mushroom turned into powder seemed the 'most safe' easy choice.

Now I'm wondering how much of the (profound) benefits of ditching caffeine may have actually been enhancement by the lion's mane...

https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice

Also, it was part funded by a CNG-Bio inc., a Lions Mane mushrooms and medicinal mushrooms supplier

> ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

> This work was supported by … and CNG-Bio grant Funding to F.A.M.

> CONFLICT OF INTEREST STATEMENT

> This work was supported by the company CNG-Bio inc.

- https://cngbio.en.ec21.com

- https://cngbio.en.ec21.com/company_info.html

They've found cognitive benefits in people as well. (small studies, but it's more than just mice)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Hericium%20erinaceus&p...

This ̶m̶u̶s̶h̶r̶o̶o̶m̶ ̶ fungi is easy enough to grow and cultivate yourself[2][3] - IF - you have time for such shenanigans. I did this last year through summer and autumn in my garage. I'm making no claims about effects or health benefits, but it is tasty and I managed to grow it on a number of substrates (including waste such as brown cardboard and coffee grounds).

If you're in the UK (as I am)and you see it wild, don't pick it though as Lions Mane / Bearded Tooth is a protected species[1].

Gourmet mushrooms are starting to filter into food chains in various locations through local independents who are very passionate and skilled about their cultivation practice[4].

Mycology is a fascinating hobby and plays very nice with woodworking as the waste from one activity feeds into the next on a small scale.

[1]: https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/trees-woods-and-wildlife/fu... [2]: https://grocycle.com/growing-lions-mane/ [3]: https://fungiacademy.com/how-to-grow-lions-mane-mushrooms/ [4]: https://southwestmushrooms.com/en-gb

It's surprising more mushrooms aren't actively cultivated. One thing is the mycorrhizing kinds which are hard to farm, but there are plenty of types which just need the right substrate and some care. Lion's mane, which unfortunately doesn't grow in my country, is one, but there is also sulfur shelf a.k.a. chicken of the woods which I would have thought would be a great candidate for mass cultivation. Shaggy mane inkcaps have terrible shelf life, so I understand why those aren't cultivated, but it should also be fairly straightforward to do on a small scale.

The "myco space" for want of a better term is very interesting and food is only a small part of that area of operations.

packaging - https://www.mycopack.co.uk/ furniture - https://plainmagazine.com/designer-researcher-come-sustainab...

If I had a few more days per week and few spare hundred K kicking around I'd be having a poke at some of this stuff as a small scale business.

I totally agree, it is surprising that fungi and mushrooms (the fruiting bodies of fungi) are not more widely cultivated - especially as use goes beyond food.

I'mn currently experimenting with hollowing out Fomes fomentarius [1] brackets(hoof fungus), polishing them up, flattening the backs and finishing them with hardwax. Not quite sure where this will go but I'd like to see if I could fit battery powered lights in them and use them as odd but quirky reading lights.

[1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fomes_fomentarius_BW...

>The "myco space" for want of a better term is very interesting and food is only a small part of that area of operations.

Mushroom "leather" is now a luxury product:

>Why Hermès, Famed for Its Leather, Is Rolling Out a Travel Bag Made From Mushrooms

https://robbreport.com/style/accessories/hermes-vegan-mushro...

>Stella McCartney Unveils ‘World-First’ Garments Made From Vegan Mushroom Leather

https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/fashion/stella-mccartne...

>Mushroom leather just got one step closer to the mainstream

https://www.voguebusiness.com/sustainability/mushroom-leathe...

Chicken of the woods has an odd texture. Kind of gritty. So though it's abundant where we live, most mushroom hunters don't pick them. Cutting off and eating just the edge gives you a better texture than the entire mushroom.

as I understand it some people cannot digest it well either. It doesn't really grow in any woodlands around here so I've not had a chance to taste it.

Chicken of the woods being Laetiporus, an edible mushrooms:

- https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetiporus

Additional edible mushrooms are here; warning: many edibles have non-edible lookalike “twins” - and whole books are written on the topic on identifying mushrooms:

- https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_mushroom

As the saying goes all mushrooms can be eaten once...

It's surprising more mushrooms aren't actively cultivated

I asked a mycologist acquaintance this at a party some time ago (several folks were talking about unusual recipe ingredients). He said it's just that most mushrooms don't travel well enough to be profitable enough for the grocery chains. But local mushroom growers seem to be showing up more and more at the famers markets at least around here, so we're getting more variety.

They want 71£ for 4oz of lions mane powder. Am I missing something? That seems exorbitant.

https://southwestmushrooms.com/en-gb/products/mushroom-powde...

I'd ask them why, I'm sure they can explain it. My initial thought is that when you powder fruiting bodies (mushrooms) the weight is effectively divided by 10 4oz (113g?) of dried powder probably has 40oz (1.3kg) of input. By the time you add in processing and packaging who knows what the cost is.

I know I looked at what you could realistically charge to restaurants in the UK and it was somewhere around £15 a kilo. This is why I'd prefer to eat the thing, rather than a product of the thing.

Ask them - see what they say. I'd be surprised if they didn't explain it.

I'm based in London and wondering if there are places to buy lion's mane whole?

I'm in Newcastle / Northumberland but I dare say as you are in the capital you'd be able to find a suitable independent retailer somewhere. Newcastle has a place on Chilli Road and given the size of Newcastle compared to London, you'll be able to find somewhere.

I'd probably start with businesses that sell organic food. But you already probably knew that and so these words are futile. I offer them in good faith.

I've seen them often sold at the weekend farmers' markets. Last I saw them was the Sunday Marylebone market (which is a small one so I assume they're more readily available at larger ones)

You can sometimes buy it here dried but it’s normally sold out.

https://www.maesymush.co.uk/

Why is lions mane legally protected? It grows all over my backyard in the fall and it is legal to forage in my state/area.

Some quick googling indicates that it’s very rare in the U.K.

You'd need to ask the woodland trust that question but I get the feeling it's because it is rare thing to see wild in the UK.

It could also to be something to do with the Plant Health Act 1967 which is aimed at stopping the spread of <insert thing you're trying to stop>. Inadvertently Introducing new fungal varieties into a woodland may cause damage to the woodland.

I don't know for certain though but probably down to a different take on policy approaches to ecology between our two countries.

I did some looking around. I have no familiarity with this mushroom nor its medicinal uses. Some thoughts:

This mushroom has like 77 known compounds and this study looked at two of them (together, not individually). Western medicine often seeks to isolate "active ingredients" in order to be able to create monetizable drug products.

This may not be such a hot idea. My recollection is that malaria is increasingly resistant to synthetic quinine derivatives but is not developing resistance to actual quinine, an extract from the bark of a tree.

It may be more powerful but overly simplified. It's also problematic to study both compounds together if there are no prior studies on each individually. How do you know which does what?

Could adapting to quinine derivatives bridge a previously unbridgeable gap leading to quinine resistance? Everything seems to be a web or tied together. Could quinine resistance tip some balance resulting an explosion of malaria? </insomnia-thoughts>

Nice try cordyceps, not falling for that one. No pancakes for breakfast today!

You can eat all the cordyceps you want until global warming causes it to mutate to be able to survive human body temperatures. We’ve probably still got a few decades before then.

And has them evolve to get around an immune system. That’s probably as big of a barrier as their operating temperature range.

Also it's not like the earth hasn't had hotter periods of history (since fungi evolution) and doesn't have hot regions in which fungi could have already evolved higher body heat/environmental temperature tolerance. There are likely strong biological constraints and trade-offs for why fungi have stuck to their niches.

Also a human brain with complex higher functions is remarkable different from an ant brain. It's likely that a "brain manipulating fungus" attacking a complex mammalian brain would simply cause organism to malfunction and die or cause intense disorganized mental illness rather than any organized behavioural patterns.

I can’t wait until we have gain of function fungi that make by brain ignore boredom. Or be compelled to exercise just enough to keep be healthy.

Lion’s Mane mushroom is a reasonably safe supplement if you want to experiment.

Be warned that it has a reputation for suppressing libido, reducing motivation, or inducing apathy in some people. Some people seem to like it, but it’s not really the miracle mushroom that all of the YouTube ads and podcasts are suggesting lately.

It works pretty well. Been talking it for years and there seems to be a small noticeable boost.

2 things: 1) the effects are gone if you stop taking it 2) you're going to have some weird dreams if you take it in the evening (ie take it in the morning)

Apart from that, I have not noticed any libido, motivation or aphathy side effects but that's a data point of 1. YMMV

Yeah never affected libido for me or motivation. But I also take other supplements inc NMN, Creatine, BCD vits, Zinc, Magnesium, and sometimes Modafinil and eat a meat based diet.

Tried NMN and NR. Decided to stick with NR.

Since we're talkimg supplements I like the OG: fish oil, vitamin D, multivitamin.

Interesting. I have taken it for years as well. It’s one of only two supplements that I’ve ever noticed a very noticeable positive difference from (magnesium is the other, which for me has a very noticeable ability to help me sleep deeper, ie keeps me from waking at night).

I take lions mane most nights before bed. Haven’t noticed any weird dreams, nor the other effects around libido or motivation. I’ve been a chronic bad sleeper most of my life, and regularly would wake up feeling terribly in my head (headache, etc) after a subpar night of sleep. Lions mane has completely removed that feeling - my mind is clear in the morning and ready to go. Especially on nights when I go to bed extra late, I know if I take this stuff before bed I’ll be pretty good still in the morning.

Years ago I suggested some friends and family try it and nobody has had equally noticeable effects if any, so I no longer do. These things are just super individualized for whatever reason. Cool to hear some others here have benefitted too. I’m not sure if it’s the properties where it helps with inflammation or what it is that benefits me specifically. Would love to know. Also what side effects there are from long term use.

Sounds like most cholinergics then?

How does it differ from racetams/uridine/huperzine in your experience, if you've tried any of those?

What if you mix it with Mucuna Pruriens?

Be aware of DAWS risk if taking Mucuna Pruriens.

What is DAWS

Dopamine Agonist Withdrawal Syndrome: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23686524/

A Mucuna pruriens extract can have significant levels of L-DOPA, a precursor to dopamine.

I would not take Mucuna Pruriens.

L-DOPA (the active component in Mucuna Pruriens) is well known to cause degeneration when given clinically to Parkinson’s patients who actually need it.

L-DOPA becomes Dopamine, but given that the L-DOPA is distributed throughout your brain and body when you take it orally, the conversion happens in higher volumes in places in your brain where it’s not normally occurring. Dopamine metabolism produces toxic byproducts, so producing Dopamine in random places and having it break down isn’t good.

There are a lot of mostly harmless supplements out there. Mucuna Pruriens isn’t one of them.

Does it even cross the blood brain barrier?

I've tried a lot of nootoripcs, most I give up on but lion's mane noticably reduces my brain fog.

I've been taking lions mane for two years daily and have experienced no such side effects. Anecdotal, of course.

Since all they have shown is that Lion's Mane stimulates ERK1 and ERK2, you would be just as well off taking Magnesium since that is the co-factor for the ERK1 and ERK2 enzymes.

https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/P27361/entry

Cofactor Protein has 1 cofactor binding site: Mg2+

The following will out perform every fancy nootropic:

Drink as much water as you can. Breathe clean air. Walk. Get as much sleep as you can. Lift something heavy regularly.

An excellent point.

If I was being a pedant (which I tacitly now am), I'd be tempted to add two things:

1 - mindfulness meditation. Building the ability of the mind to hold attention is arguably just as useful as training the muscles. Especially for longer term knowledge workers who "get a bit bored of this staring at the screen thing". Like me. This comment is evidence of my ability to procrastinate.

2 - eat wide and well. Up to the individual to decide what that translates into, but eating wide and well will give you all the range of macro and micro nutrients you'll need for optimum cognitive performance.

Except there is such thing as drinking too much water.

Let's add "Everything in moderation" to the end of the wholesome anti-aging routine

Now define moderation!

Everything is correct except for the first one. Hydration is HEAVILY dependent on age. Younger bodies can hold on to way more water, and that decreases as we age. This is the primary reason why we get worse hangovers as we age.

Drink water while it makes you feel good, but for the love of God, do not force-hydrate yourself, especially if you are not 40.

https://www.thecut.com/2016/06/why-your-hangovers-just-keep-...

Incorrect. This is a fanciful notion quite frankly that is more a romantic idea than anything grounded in reality

What's incorrect? You don't think sleep increases working memory and long term brain health? Exercise doesn't fix everything? Water isn't the best thing to drink? Don't dispute universal givens without strong evidence.

Sleep does increase working memory and long term brain health. Exercise is one of the best things one can do to remain cognitively fit. Water is one of the best all-around things one can do for your health.

But: your claim is that all of these things will out perform every fancy nootropic. This dismisses the entirety of pharmacology effectively... which is quite frankly the citation that needs evidence. There is a lot of nootropics / pharmaceutical drugs / herbs / mushrooms / etc out there. It's simply incorrect to assert that sleep, exercise and water are more effective than the intelligent use of some of these things. I get your overall point and I appreciate it and believe a lot of it, but I just think you're wrong in how heavily you assert it.

I am a different person than root, just calling it out though our views are the same and we might as well be the same for practical discussion reasons. Anyway, your statement above is reasonable. I personally find all nootropics to be absolutely useless, except uppers - coffee, energy drinks, etc. They work, but there is a heavy cost afterward. I am very interested in this topic and have read everything from military research to micro-dosing bros in the valley, and I haven't found anything that is remotely effective in improving memory / brain activity / focus. Again, Adderral gets grouped with "effective, but side effects too costly".

The benefit of the things listed above is that there is absolutely no downside other than time.

Edit: If you have an example of something that you consider effective, definitely list it please.

Ah sorry I definitely thought you were the root.

I suspect a lot of nootropics are so person-dependant. I can't speak much about nootropics ability to help someone who is already cognitively well-off, but I can definitely say they have significantly helped my mom's ability to remain cognitively sharp despite e.g. something akin to frontal-temporal dementia. Lions Mane absolutely does noticeably improve her cognitive abilities. Mind you, in this case it means that she goes from noticeably poor cognitive abilities to back to just a normal person's cognitive abilities, but that's fantastic from my perspective (maybe not due to Lion's Mane alone though). I've also noticed a surprising effectiveness of high-dose vitamin D + a powerful antioxidant like glutathione. Again though, this is very personalized. My mom, through blood work, we know is suffering from massive oxidative stress, so of course it makes sense that addressing the specific issues that are affecting her will cause a noticeable effect.

I know a lot of people turn to nootropics to enhance their abilities though and I honestly can't say much about that except that personally lions mane does seem to make me sharper (clearer thinking) but that is very anecdotal and much less noticeable than the improvements I see in my mom when she is taking certain supplements vs when she is not. And I'm generally prone to believe most supplements are bs, fraud or not necessary. I've come around to seeing how important certain supplements can be for certain people at certain times.

Thanks Tim, I will read more on Lion's Mane.

Lifting heavy things also has the downside of potential injury. I'm an enthusiast, but it takes some education, and constant vigilance.

There is an enormous cost to working out - you need more sleep, a cleaner diet (usually at least with whey supplementation), a stretching routine, more clothing and showers. And that's after we consider that it's 1-2 hours out of a day where you probably do work-related activities for ~9, sleep 8, do chores & eat for 2. 2/5 "free" hours is a very serious commitment.

It also comes with tangential issues like knowing how not to create muscle imbalances, over-eat, over-train, etc. So that is definitely a valuable call out. Furthermore, a brilliant statement (that's common sense to most) I heard in the last few years is that efficiency is the opposite of stability - working out is more load that causes overall efficiency, but creates more risk. In short, you are absolutely right, even if we ignore the extreme scenarios where someone slips a disc or tears a bicep.

"lift heavy things" can require instruction, but something as simple as 45-60 minutes of walking, hiking, rucking, jogging, or some mix of it all is not something that requires particular skill or stretching.

I am sure there are people who are responsible for more than themselves and live paycheck to paycheck, so between dependents and themselves have little time.

However, I wager that any person or couple without dependents absolutely 100% has 45-60 minutes to spare per day in the form of basic physical activity with a disconnect from social media and work obligations. It's mindfulness and movement in one.

It's also addicting and on non-workout days can cause restlessness.

However it has changed my life for the better and I still recommend lifting for everyone.

Get sunlight daily. We need infrared to keep our inflammation under control, not just UV for vit-D.

And, UV for our skin to produce NO to reduce our blood pressure

I took a few pills of "ORIVeDA Lion's Mane Extract Combination Fruiting Body and Mycelium 2-Pack" every day for a few weeks. According to Reddit it's a well reputed brand and supposed to be high quality. It was expensive. Anyway, I noticed zero effects, positive or otherwise.

I drink a coffee alternative that happens to have Lion's Mane in it. Can't really be objective on if it has really made a difference in my memory since that's not the reason I primarily bought it (it was to get off coffee which is negatively impacting me).

Hey there, mind sharing the product? Sounds interesting!

I add Laird Performance Mushroom powder to my coffee… when I can remember. Unfortunately it’s not cheap. I leaned about it from Dr Rhonda Patrick

https://lairdsuperfood.com/products/performance-mushrooms?va...

Thanks!

This brand, along with most other US sourced products (including Paul Stamet's brand) contains more biomass (the grain substrate on which mushroom grows) than the mushroom itself. For instance, one of the FAQ on their site states it has 2g of starch per 2g serving!

I am looking for a good lion's mane supplement in the US too but I haven't found a good one yet.

Is there a lab that verifies this?

The supplement industry is in sorry state. It hurts to see people throwing away money on useless products on Amazon.

Real Mushrooms is the only mushroom supplier I trust. (No affiliation, you can find discussions about them on Reddit)

10 ounces for $87. That’s crazy.

Probably MUDWTR

> Can't really be objective on if it has really made a difference in my memory since that's not the reason I primarily bought it

Wouldn't that actually be more objective since you'd be avoiding any kind of placebo effect as you weren't expecting any effects on memory?

Me too, https://spacegoods.com/ and I can confirm it eliminates the need for coffee during the day as well as it helps for staying in the zone a bit

Thanks for the link. I just looked at the ingredients list, and it still contains "coffee extract", which I find a bit strange.

thats fine for me, because it literally replaces a liter of coffee per day or even more, and keeps the headache from caffeine withdrawal at bay

Heads up: Safeway brand organics green tea with matcha has an unusually high amount of natural caffeine, like crazy amount. And no coffee jitters due to synergistic effects of l-theanine. Perfectly fine if you can just limit yourself to just one or two cups.

Also Guayusa tea. Tastes great, no bittnerness, and a nice amount of caffeine.

It contains both coffee extract and cocoa powder. The cocoa powder contains about 11.5 mg of caffeine per tablespoon (5 grams).

I'm sure this is a great product and an alternative to a "cup of coffee", but it's clearly not a caffeine alternative. Which is fine, as long as people understand what they are buying. The "natural caffeine" listing is 80mg for an 8g serving on the website. So the transparency is good.

FourSigmatic coffee is real coffee with lions mane. Did you try something else?

https://us.foursigmatic.com/products/instant-lions-mane

This is the product I used to eliminate coffee. It has no coffee.

This is yet another tiny study paid for by the company selling the supplement. Medicalxpress.com? really guys?

It's astounding how much "research" is part of an ad campaign. Company and industry wants to sell you X and they fund studies to say X is good or competitor Y is bad. It's all marketing.

same deal with people advocating for taking MDMA or psilocybin to treat their depression

If you have histamine intolerance be aware that Lion's Mane may trigger a histamine response. Happened to my partner, which was frustrating since it provided cognitive benefits for her.

https://lonestarmushrooms.com/pages/lions-mane-nutritional-c...

It's high in some of the B vitamins, which are important to brain function. She may just have a vitamin deficiency.

Everyone should get their levels of nutrition tested before trying anything weird and expensive like Lion's Mane.

Just throwing this out there as a neurodegenerative in remission. It's not the main reason why. But I can definitely tell when I haven't taken my Lion's mane caps that morning.

This after years of elimination, trial and error out the necessity survival. It's worth a human trial once we can actually measure the effects.

can you say more about your experience? what issues did you have and what else are you doing/have tried?

I can speak about my experience, as someone that's ADHD, and has poor memory. I combined it with bacopa monnieri. My working memory feels like it's gotten a ton better. It took a few weeks for me to realize effects. I was no longer constantly forgetting things, able to manage more while coding, and able to participate a whole lot more during work meetings, as I could actually recall things more readily. I would say that this is just placebo, except that my wife also noticed that I was not constantly forgetting everything. With the concerta shortage hitting my area, I actually stopped taking my stimulants for about 2 months, and while my hyper active tendencies didn't go away, I was able to still perform at work. Having a better working memory made context switching much less expensive. I no longer feel dependent on my meds, and only take them when I know I'll be driving for long periods of time, as they do make me a safer driver.

Side effects Occasional headaches for the first two weeks, this was fixed by ensuring that I had enough magnesium in my system. Also, if you're taking capsules, start out with half the daily dose for a few weeks. Also, a noticeable decrease in sex drive. I think it comes back after a few weeks though. Maca root also counters this- if you see this as a problem.

Also, I will say that no supplement beats out good sleeping habits, diet, and exercise, so your mileage may vary and that's where I would personally start.

TLDR: Lion's mane mushrooms, not magic ones or the common white mushrooms.

Link to full text of paper:

Hericerin derivatives activates a pan-neurotrophic pathway in central hippocampal neurons converging to ERK1/2 signaling enhancing spatial memory

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jnc.15767

How to best ingest them? And at what dosage? TFA mentions something about "extract" but is light on further details.

I saw them in Whole Foods[1] this week, in their own store brand version.

My friend who took it said it causes headaches in the beginning, but that either their tolerance picked up or it was just an initial effect of the supplement.

The odd thing about a supplement which has studies coming out about them is that, if it really works in a drug specific way, then FDA will regulate it and remove it off the supplement shelf like what happened with NMN.

[1] - https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/product/365-by-whole-foods-...

1/2 gram per pill? Seems rather small compared to eating, well, a few full sized mushrooms per day.

Oriveda has a very high quality water based fruiting body and alcohol based mycelium extract combo

... in vitro and in 40 male mice.

The effects of lions mane mushroom has been studied in humans before (https://examine.com/supplements/lionsmane/#research-breakdow...). This is a study specifically of the mechanism by which those effects arise.

The one human trial there shows no difference between active and placebo groups.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/biomedres/31/4/31_4_231...

> Our results show that HE intake has the possibility to reduce depression and anxiety and these results suggest a different mechanism from NGF-enhancing action of H. erinaceus.

No, it says that there is a possible difference, but the mechanism is not what they thought it might be

The abstract is just hype. Read the full text. There was no difference between groups. The study failed!

Fantastic! With mice in vitro you had no idea if there was an effect, with this study you have evidence there is no effect!

Key point I think should be more prominent:

The effect was on cultured brain cells. The reason brain tumors and other disorders of the brain are so hard to treat is that the blood-brain barrier keeps many big molecules out. That doesn't mean the molecule isn't therapeutically relevant, only that there's a ways to go to making it useful for actual humans/mice and not just cells in a petri dish.

Still a fascinating discovery and I look forward to more research.

Edit: Not totally true, the actual study link has more details.

>We further found that dietary supplementation with H. erinaceus crude extract significantly enhanced recognition memory.

The human BBB may still be an obstacle but I'm sure we'll see more studies soon.

Anyone whom has taken a psilocybin containing mushroom will tell you that mushrooms have strange and magical powers ranging from deep insight to madness, so it doesn't seem so far fetched that a mushroom can improve cognition. I have found Lions mane, reishi and chaga mushroom supplements taken in combination over a few days have a noticeable effect increasing my calm and keeping me focused. Apparently microdosing with psilocybe mushroom has a similar effect according to my psychonaut friends.

> Anyone whom has taken a psilocybin containing mushroom will tell you that [X] mushrooms have strange and magical powers

There’s a »psilocybin« missing in the [X] spot. Fungi are an entire biological kingdom, with variety as big as there is from corals to elephants in the animal kingdom. Very, very few fungi are psychoactive.

Or rather, if you disrupt your brain’s function on certain diverting ways you can get it to produce some wacky subjective effects. You can get some interesting patterns on your computer screen if you slowly unplug your graphics card while it’s running, too. Doesn’t mean you can make your computer smarter that way.

This mushroom has been used by monks for centuries, finally seeing "recent" science.

There's a 2010 study about how it helped elderly Japanese men and women in cognitive decline after 16 weeks.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18844328/

The other studies are mostly in rats/mice around the nerve regeneration, immune system, and anxiety/depression. This finding might be similar to:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3176599/

I've been off and on it for years and it takes 4 weeks to see noticeable effects for those who want to try at home. I mostly got into it due to recovery of a covid infection that turned into an extended one while I am young and healthy. I believe it has helped me significantly, but might be too early to generalize.

Nice work putting a word very similar to ‘magic’ next to a positive mushroom related study title. Gotta remember this trick.

Great observation. Are there categories of clickbait? I wonder what you'd call this one?

Here is an interesting article written from an anthroposophic perspective of why this happens.

https://www.anthromed.org/library/2018/12/6/the-fungi

> ...have been used in traditional medicine in Asian countries for centuries

Seriously, is there ANYTHING that is not used in Chinese medicine?

It's just regular food here. A bit pricey at times, but not uncommon.

Whole Foods in DC has been selling Lions Mane at the grocery store for 7.99 a box ($1 an ounce)

The producer is Smallhold located in NY.

Paul Stamets has been talking about Lion's Mane for years. It is an incredible supplement.

can anyone recommend a Lion's Mane supplement? Unfortunately Fungi Perfecta does not give actual ground mushrooms but stealthily sells ground-up _mycelium_.

If "study finds" anything, it's safe to run away from it. It's the same studies that found "cholesterol free" toxic plant oils (that they produce just to prevent from being eaten) to be healthier than the ONE COMMON food ingredient that all of humanity has had in their diets: "animal fats"... it's the same studies that found untested, unproven vaccines to be "safe and effective".

"Study finding it beneficial" is a signal that people have stopped eating shitty low-nutrient, low quality, cheap to grow fungus... but they really want to sell it for a premium.

Unlike fruit-bearing plants, fungus do not benefit from anything or anyone eating them... so fungus have no incentive to be symbiotic. There is no reason to eat fungus except in the face of starvation.

Edible mushrooms do benefit from being eaten. Their total biomass is today much greater than if they'd remained naturally-selected, growing in the wild. That said, the evolutionary feedback loop of incrementally more intelligent humans farming and eating them does seem tenuous.

Said feedback loop would start with discovery of any benefits. Anything amazing probably would be expensive energetically to select for, let alone the stupid odds of developing an intelligence increaser.

Ironically the hypotheical smart mushroom would probably be mostly "betrayed" if synthesizing is more efficient post discovery, relegating it to a niche curiosity at best.

Noopept is cheaper

Lol. They're not the same thing. Noopept is a racetam which comes with its own pros and cons.

You could take/eat as much lion's mane as you want and you'd be fine. Now try a whole noopept bottle (srsly: Do not do this!)

Known to CTM for, what, 4,000 years?

Well, that's why they wanted to study it.

Fungus affects brain... hmmm...

At what dosages?

makes sense similar effect to beer on belly

Huh?!

makes it grow

Hahaha.. nice try, still not eating them

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