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Comment by mettamage | Hacker News Reader

Wait, so is this the oldest university then?

Because a quick Google says "The Jagiellonian University is a public research university in Kraków, Poland. Founded in 1364 by King Casimir III the Great, it is the oldest university in Poland and the 13th oldest university in continuous operation in the world. It is regarded as Poland's most prestigious academic institution."

Ugh...

ChatGPT says "The University of Bologna, located in Bologna, Italy, is considered the oldest university in the world, founded in 1088. It was initially established as a law school, but over time, it grew to include faculties of medicine, philosophy, and theology. The university played a significant role in the development of European higher education, and its model of organization and academic freedom has been emulated by other universities around the world."

This seems to be a contentious topic.

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It depends on how you define a university.

Medieval European universities are often considered the first true universities, because they are direct ancestors of modern universities, and their traditions have survived and evolved into what we see today. There were earlier institutes of higher education all around the world (including Europe), but those traditions have not survived.

> It depends on how you define a university.

I think the institution that invented the term probably gets to define it. And that is the University of Bologna.

So what's their definition?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University

Language doesn't work that way.

Won't that imply that "humans" didn't exist until the term "human" was invented?

a term defined is different from a thing existing.

is it though?! "language is the house of being"

A term by any other name would still smell as sweet as ... ;)

That might in fact be true.

If we define humans as having a sufficiently sophisticated language, and using a term to reference one's entire species is characteristic of that, then at a stretch we could define the first human being as the child of proto-humans who first invented this linguistic concept.

Point taken :)

What if "human" would be replaced by "ape"?

Sure. There are several similar arguments made in this thread. Such as, before the word "run" was first used, we could only walk quickly.

The logic of these arguments is fine. I just noticed a way to nit-pick your implementation of it.

> If we define humans as having a sufficiently sophisticated language

That would be hard to object to.

> and using a term to reference one's entire species is characteristic of that

But this is easy to object to. People can easily do without a term for the species; it's more common to use tribal names, so that a contrast is drawn between different groups of humans (as opposed to between humans and animals, or humans and gods).

Terms for humans as a species come along pretty quickly, but they're not universal.

So what about Bachelor and Baccalaureate both being words that have their pre-Latin roots in Arabic: Bihaqq Al-riwayatt (“the right to restate the learning to somebody else“).

Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition.

The medieval Enlightenment and subsequent Renaissance was huge for Europe, yes, but just as important to realize today is that a lot of it was taking heavy inspiration from other cultures and regions and “Europeanizing” it and then calling it their own (I.E. a cultural exchange)

That link you gave for Bihaqq Al-riwayatt was very interesting but not conclusive imho.

> Or the fact

Muslims are just as capable as Christians at promoting theories with very little evidence to support their arguments.

Both of your assertions are unproven theories, with the evidence against them: bachelor originally meant a young knight who followed another (though the etymology before that is uncertain), and academic robes derive from similar (European) mediaeval clerical and secular clothing.

There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the father says that the etymology of all English words can be traced back to Greek[1]. When someone challenges him with the word "Kimono," he pauses for a second, and then concocts a semi-plausible sounding explanation about how the word evolved from a Greek word.

A comedy, but I think it does reflect how a lot of people can be so impressed by their own culture that they end up spinning fictional narratives about it. For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote.

Pride in one's culture isn't a bad thing, but too much of it can definitely lead people to believe some very questionable claims.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXt0VCPKfQ4

> There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding

And there is linguistics, a science that studies language including etymology.

I mean, I don’t think anyone here doubts that linguistics exists. The point was rather that fake etymologies also exist, and can be extremely common. As other replies have noted, it doesn't look like there's evidence that the word "Baccalaureate" comes from the Arabic "Bihaqq Al-riwayatt," and there seems to be a high likelihood that this is a fake etymology.

The Oxford English Dictionary even points out the fake etymology for bachelor meaning a laurel wreath, and says it's just an old pun.

> For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote.

That myth does exist, but I do not think that it is a belief commonly held by Germans (i.e. people living in Germany, not referring to those US citizens tracing their heritage to the Fatherland here). I heard about it only long after crossing the pond. I rather think it's spread by people interested in German language/German culture albeit living in the USA. And I don't think anyone takes it too seriously.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-german-vote/

EDIT: I stand corrected: it's not only known in Germany, but was apparently first spread there in 1847: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg-Legende

I assumed it was common because I've run into different Germans who brought up the myth to me, and were surprised I didn't know about it (treating it as common knowledge). But it's certainly possible the people I've known aren't a great representation of the general population.

Funny I heard the same thing about the US but it was French that lost by one vote.

True, but let me give you a counterexample. In India ,a lot of 'modern' liberal historians promote hating own culture, history and the roots denigrating Hinduism and its scriptures as origin of all things bad such as casteism. This has surprisingly led a lot of neutral folks more to take a tougher stance of defending own culture even though we do not necessarily practice it to the letter like some groups.

Battle of ideologies, groups, regions and culture is as old as history and does not seem like it will ever completely die down. We need a more hybrid understanding where we evolve with time and apply modern lens to historical ideas carefully. Without ideological pride in Christianity, white superiority I doubt most of the European countries would've had been the colonizing superpowers they became controlling most of the world.

> In India, a lot of 'modern' liberal historians promote hating [their] own culture, history and [roots,] denigrating Hinduism and its scriptures as [the] origin of all things bad

Change "Hinduism" into some other word and you have a pretty general description of liberal historians in most Western countries.

This might be an imperialist perspective, but I'm guessing India imported this cultural tradition from them. :/

> So what about Bachelor and Baccalaureate both being words that have their pre-Latin roots in Arabic

What evidence do you have for this extraordinary claim?

> Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition.

This is also an unfounded claim. University garb is derived from monstic order garb, which in turn is from early Nicean period monk tradition. This long predates your source.

Wiktionary states the following for "baccalaureate":

From French baccalauréat, from Medieval Latin baccalaureatus, from Latin baccalaureus, an alteration of baccalārius (“young man aspiring to knighthood”), to resemble bacca lauri (“laurel berry”) (the ancient symbol of victory). Compare bachelor.

For "baccalaureus":

Alteration of baccalārius, influenced (by folk etymology) by Latin bacca ("berry") and laurea ("laurel") due to the fact that graduates wore laurel crowns filled with berries in order to represent the fruit of their study. Perhaps of Celtic origin, from Gaulish *bakalakos, itself borrowed from Latin baculum (“stick”).[1]

No Arabic roots here.

Folks on HN sometimes have very unusual beliefs but that was definitely eyebrow raising.

Yeah, it is ridiculous to believe "baccalaureate" could have originated from "one who may teach others". It is far more plausible that this word originated from "stick" or "berry".

Ah, so the robes are Turkish, then?

> Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition.

This particular "fact" is in error unless you believe Medieval Christian monks copied Arabic dress. Academic dress in the US derives from Oxford and Cambridge, which was developed from extremely common clerical garb of the Middle Ages. Arabic dress is not necessarily black, but also white and dyed colors, are shaped differently than academic dress and have a trim never seen in academic dress. The two types of dress have origins distinct from each other. They may both belong to a larger category of robes, but the similarity ends there.

Usually the medieval European universities are distinguished by not being primarily religious institutions, although there have been objections to this definition. Otherwise, several older madrasas remain in operation, the oldest being the University of al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco (847), which is listed as the world's oldest university by e.g. the Guinness Book of World Records:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_al-Qarawiyyin

Surprisingly, there are some schools for adolescents in England which are even older, the oldest dating to 597:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_School,_Canterbur...

That the oldest continuously operating institutions in the world are mostly in England (schools), Japan (hotels) and the desert mountains of North Africa (madrasas and St. Catherine's Monastery) is likely a consequence of "splendid isolation". Nobody is quite sure how old the government of Haida Gwaii is.

Continuous operation is a key word--which indeed apparently applies the the University of Bologna--and according to Wikipedia it is the oldest continuously operating university. (It's apparently either 1088 or 1180-90 depending on your criteria--just a few years earlier than Oxford with the same criteria).

ADDED: As others note "university" is also a key word though college would probably also serve.

Those sound like universities that are still in operation. Nalanda was destroyed about 800 years ago.

Certainly this was a University, even metallurgy lab has been found in Nalanda. Many chinese Scholars use to come to Nalanda and Study, we know this because of their notes and their day to day life in the university. Xuanzang lived in Nalanda for about 15 yrs and studies and he noted a lot of things in his notes. He even explains about Brushing the teeth and morning cleansing rituals. Like how too do bowel and clean the hands. How to use the toilet etc. And when he returned he took bak 10000 Books back with him.

Are we fixated on the word "University"?

Irrespective of the word, it is the knowledge that was taught in those places.

Sorry about that, it is indeed a bias I have

You may have gotten it confused it for a recently created university by the same name. Just putting it out there.

https://nalandauniv.edu.in/

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