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Comment by nprateem | Hacker News Reader

I had to go to one to return a package. I couldn't get past the turnstiles because I don't use the app and don't know my password because I use a password manager. This meant I couldn't hand my parcel in at the counter.

The woman on the turnstile wouldn't let me in even when I explained the situation. So she went off and got a scanner to take my package. She didn't offer a receipt, and when I asked for one said it wasn't possible to give me one. I checked my email, and nothing there either. So I had no evidence I'd actually returned my item and she just said something like "It's in the system and never makes a mistake" or some similar rubbish.

While I was in there I saw several people walk just inside, faff around on their phones for 5 minutes then either give up or eventually get past the turnstiles. There's literally no benefit for customers unless you're shopping at busy times.

So all in all an unmitigated disaster.

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> I don't use the app

So then why attempt to go to a store that’s entirely based on using the app?

The store concept is based around your account - and you didn’t know your account details. The app can help avoid this, but you also refused to use the app.

How is this any different than someone who refuses to use their password to sign in to Amazon.com and complains about not being able to submit a return?

Or going to a store and not having your credit card but being annoyed that you can’t use your credit card?

He was trying to return a package, not shop at the store. You can return Amazon packages at WholeFoods, Kohl’s and the UPS Store using the Amazon website on your phone — app not needed. I do it all the time because I refuse to use their app.

> He was trying to return a package, not shop at the store.

So then it sounds like he’s not in very a strong position to declare the stores as an unmitigated failure…

After re-reading, I think their point may have been to describe that one experience as a total failure, not the cashierless store concept in general.

But it definitely can be read either way, so that's confusing.

And yet the app _is_ needed at these stores. Perhaps he was confused and thought he was at a Kohl’s, a store that doesn’t need the app.

I have returned items at all three and I always show the return instructions from my email, because it is easier to navigate than the app.

Thanks for confirming you need to login into Amazon in some form to do this

You need to login to Amazon to purchase things from Amazon.

you don't necessarily. you just need a barcode photo

Never been that way for me. If I need to return something, they email me a QR code. The cashier at the UPS store scans that and takes my item, gives me a receipt, and I leave. I don't log into Amazon to get it.

It’s listed as a drop-off location when you’re returning a traditional web order. There’s no warning about it being an innavigable dystopia in the return flow. I had the same experience.

Is that an issue with the store concept, or an issue with not making it clear to users that it’s a non standard drop off location? I don’t see the lack of a warning reflecting on the actual store itself very strongly.

Also- why even bother with Amazon and trying to return packages etc if you have no easy way of getting your password? If this is too much of a hassle just use in person stores..

I’ve had drop off at mail shops locations be unexpectedly closed which is objectively worse than having a bad but possible return experience…..and never once claimed that “mail shops are an unmitigated failure”

It's definitely an Amazon failure, as Amazon controls all sides of this return.

It can be a failure on Amazons part without it being a failure of the cashierless store concept.

Well it's definitely a failure of the Amazon cashier less store concept if they railroad you into doing your returns there but then it doesn't even work.

Sounds more like a failure on the returns drop off location listing. It seems that improving the filters and visibility of what you'll need to have to drop off returns in each location is a far less drastic solution than dropping some stores because otherwise it messes the website lists.

Amazon gives you very few choices on how to return items, oftentimes just 1 (and it'll be something bad like UPS pickup or Kohl's dropoff). They would need to change this too. The problem really is with the overall experience.

That's the experience with the Amazon website though, not the cashierless store. That's the point.

I personally don't like the website too much. Full of fakes, bad quality items everywhere. I only use it for cheap stuff I wouldn't return anyway. I do get that. Amazon go and whole foods are good though. Amazon go is very convenient and whole foods often have brands which I like and I don't easily find elsewhere. I also enjoy their fruit.

I mean, I agree with you; it’s incomprehensible to me someone would go there without an app or at least their device logged into the Amazon website.

…but, let’s be charitable and say some has lost their phone or whatever; it’s not totally unreasonable to expect some kind of special process for it.

…turns out, there was a special process for it. Without a receipt. Oh well…

/shrug

Some people are just weird about it. Live and let live I say.

Lesson learnt I hope: next time, I hope they go somewhere else and let other people get on with their perfectly mundane shopping.

Just wait until they have facial recognition stores, and you’ll find people complaining they couldn’t get in while wearing high powered IR leds all over their heads. You just can’t win in some of these arguments.

> Is that an issue with the store concept, or an issue with not making it clear to users that it’s a non standard drop off location?

It's a flaw with how Amazon communicated drop off locations for returns.

You would say, "I want to return this." And they would respond with, "Take it here!" no additional information about having to have an app.

If you take a return to The UPS Store, for example, you just bring the item you're returning and a little QR / UPC code they scan and you're done.

If you take a return to the Amazon store... they won't even let you get to the point where you can return without having an app on your phone. It was annoying.

Especially if you were taking someone else's package back with your own. Or... more accurately, returning something for your girlfriend since she bought 3 tops with the intent of only keeping one and had to do a return like every 3 days because of her shopping habits. And she just assumed it worked the same as returns at The UPS Store... and then when you got there to drop off the package you couldn't even sign in as her. Ha.

I feel the original posters frustration around this. For a company that has always said, "It's all about the customer experience..." it was REALLY BAD customer experience. And, because it wasn't me setting up the original returns, I got sent to the dumb little "make you log in before you can enter" store a few times by mistake.

You get a whole class of issues like this making stuff rely on a phone app.

It's different because there's a long-standing precedent that you don't need to install a smartphone app to use a store.

Sure, but Amazon Go is, as the comment you replied to states, a store which literally is built to require an app to use. This argument is thrown out the window when you shop at a store which explicitly and from its inception has required this.

As the commenter stated,

> So then why attempt to go to a store that’s entirely based on using the app?

Because it wasn't clear I needed to use an app (and therefore would require access to my password which I didn't have on my phone) since I was just trying to return a product.

Amazon lists lockers in buildings with controlled access as drop off points as well. It’s up to you to confirm you have access to the locker.

If you need an app to enter that store and you need to enter the store to return an item, then it’s pretty clear you need an app to return an item at that store.

They didn't say I needed it.

It’s as if you didn’t read my comment at all.

> If you need an app to enter that store and you need to enter the store to return an item, then it’s pretty clear you need an app to return an item at that store.

You don't need an app to enter the store. You need an app to shop at the store. Presumably many classes of person enter the store for various non-shopping reasons without needing the app. It's not beyond the bounds of reason to imagine that for the non-shopping purpose of returning an unrelated item you may not need the shopping app to enter the store -- or, indeed, to imagine that for the product return flow the shoppers' entrance may not factor into the equation at all.

(I don't have a horse in this race, I just don't think you can usually apply the transitive property to the real world.)

> Amazon lists lockers in buildings with controlled access as drop off points as well. It’s up to you to confirm you have access to the locker.

I don’t think this makes the point you think it makes.

> If you need an app to enter that store and you need to enter the store to return an item, then it’s pretty clear you need an app to return an item at that store.

“Excuse me, you need to install the app on your phone to enter the store”, the store manager said to the paramedic responding to a call of an unconscious senior citizen on the floor of the Amazon Go store.

I think a big problem is that it shouldn't require an app to use.

There are plenty of cashierless stores which work just like any other store. They aren't exactly doing anything groundbreaking when it comes to that. They could also just put a regular payment terminal at the exit - the whole magic camera stuff would work just fine with it.

The end result is that they created an artificially cumbersome store concept, which does not provide a real benefit to the user. No wonder it isn't popular.

> I think a big problem is that it shouldn't require an app to use.

That’s not the issue that’s being discussed though. It’s a fair criticism, but that’s still irrelevant to the topic of Amazon Go stores requiring them and that you should therefore expect to need one if you want to enter a store.

> No wonder it isn't popular.

I wouldn’t deduce popularity from the closure of the stores. In Seattle at least, the stores had already been “temporarily” closed for a while and are in a fairly high-crime area of the city. [0] At the same time, they’re actively building larger suburban stores [1] which indicates a pivot, but that the format itself is still popular.

They’ve also added it to other venues like Climate Pledge Arena and Lumen Field in Seattle in the form of “Just Walk Out” [2]. You still need an Amazon One account to use it.

[0]: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon-shutters-some-c...

[1]: https://www.winsightgrocerybusiness.com/amp/topics/amazon-go...

[2]: https://justwalkout.com/

So let's say I don't shop at Amazon Go because I just never cared and had no idea what it was. But I am a frequent Amazon.com shopper. I return an Item and it tells me a list of places I can take it. I see Amazon Go listed just like the UPS store. Or just like any other drop location. So I go to the Amazon Go store just assuming it's like every other store in the entire world. Only to find it's closed to me because I didn't bring the app with me. Does that make any sense to people? Why is this so hard to figure out why someone might be confused when they get there to just drop off a goddamn box?

Why don't the people in the store have some flexibility to let you in? God forbid someone besides a computer has to make a decision.

Because if they do they'll probably get in trouble. There are cameras everywhere being monitored by computers and the incident will definitely be flagged somehow. If you steal something, then it's even worse. Why would they risk that? I think that's a minor issue with their drop off listings, which I suspect they will eventually fix.

At Kroger and Albertsons stores, you might be paying a lot more if you do not use the coupons that are only available in the app.

The coupons, at least for Kroger, are loadable from the website.

It's a "member's only" club. This is how they restrict access and dodged the NYC requirement to accept cash payment.

There's a longstanding precedent that you don't need a membership to shop at stores either, but Costco is still highly successful.

To just do a drop off requires all of that? That is quite simply dumb to the nth degree. I get not having the app would make a shopping experience difficult, but that's not what the op was attempting to do. So your whataboutism is just tone deaf

Or, just log in to your account in the browser and the return page has a QR code for the store employe to scan. I did a return a few weeks ago and I was in and out in 30 seconds, even though I don't use the app.

I had my QR code. That's why the employee had to go for the scanner. I couldn't get to the returns counter.

I always return/drop off at UPS. In and out in 5 minutes generally. But I guess UPS has been in the business of the extremely complicated "scan preprinted return label with hand held laser" game longer than Amazon.

Is the app required for a return or can you use your credit card to enter? I've always just used my credit card to enter but have never done a return at one.

The turnstiles are unfortunate. They send the wrong psychological messages -- complexity, exclusion, a barrier to entry. I can't imagine that they stop any actual thieves, considering how brazen shoplifters are these days.

And they really aren't necessary. The Amazon app has location services permission; it knows when I'm in the store. That's apparently enough to track me along with my purchases, and to flag anyone who tries to enter the store without the app. So what's the point of the turnstiles, exactly?

I've been in the Aldi version of this. By scanning an app qr code at the barrier I am associating my appearance with that account at that time. I can also bring someone into the store with me on my account (by the slightly clunky process of passing my phone back over the barrier to them).

To keep people who don’t have a means to pay at that store by having the app installed and configured with their account away from the sales floor.

It’s one thing to stop a shoplifter at a normal store. Turnstiles reinforce the notion that this facility actively enforces access control.

This is similar to Passport Control line at the airport. If I have Mobile passport (MPC) app installed, I use a dedicated and usually empty lane. The same is true if I have my Global Entry card. It takes a couple of minutes to setup MPC while walking, but most people choose to wait in the main line.

It's just the normal Amazon app, not anything special. And not to judge, but I think a password manager is really beneficial. You can even self-host it if you're concerned about security.

So did you get your refund? If so, sounds like it wasn’t a disaster.

if they didn't, they'd undoubtedly have mentioned it

I have no love for amazon, but besides the lack of receipt, this seems like an issue they created for themselves

Well since the return process took the best part of 15 minutes for this state-of-the-art store, and I would have had no recourse if the refund didn't go through (since I had no proof I'd returned it), I won't be rushing back in a hurry. So in that respect it was a failure.

15 minutes to return something honestly seems… fine? Like I’ve gone to brick and mortar stores to return things and had it take upwards of an hour for the overworked customer service folks to make it through the line of folks

If I'd known it was going to take like 10 times longer than usual I'd have gone somewhere else or not gone on my lunch break.

YMMV.

Was a big fan of the one in Chicago (I'm now remote). Never had any issues. Great selection of food/snacks/drinks. App always worked flawlessly.

Did you have the QR code they email you for dropoff returns? No app needed (besides email).

The endgame in capitalism is something that is remarkably close to a bureaucratic all-controlling government.

Only if monopolies are allowed to flourish, because, that's what the government basically is - a monopoly on all services for which there's no private counterparts.

does that not seem at all contrived to you?

government is an organisation of humans within a geographical region that work for the benefit of all the other humans within that region. it's as simple as that. it's the exception not the rule for there to be no private competition; unless you live in Cuba, in which case you're describing communism, not government

Just to clarify, communism is a specific type of government. (but yeah i assume you're saying its not government in general)

Like capitalists don't aspire to be monopolists. You'll do so too if you become successful.

Monopolies are a fact of Capitalism. One of the roles of government is to provide a counter balance to that.

You could always go for a US federalism type deal (but made more extreme), where you try and make the Federal government as minimal as possible and cities/towns as in in control as possible. Then there would be competition between cities for tax payers, with the ability to move limiting monopoly.

But that would probably be a negative for the same reason that bigger companies inevitably swallow smaller companies without government intervention: in the modern day economies of scale are everything. 10 companies that make 10,000 of something will generally lose to 1 company that makes 100,000. Monopolies will inevitably flourish without a strong government controlling them. (And moreover, in a globally connected world, if you kill all your monopolies it’s very possible another state that allowed their’s to flourish will have companies that can outcompete yours)

I’m not exactly going anywhere with this, I don’t have a great answer to what the best option is. You can try and force there to be 2-3 companies in every sphere…but that’s barely competition. You can try and regulate the massive companies…but almost inevitably large cash-rich employers end up with sway over the government. You can try for lots of local competition and shut out foreign companies…and lose out on the many benefits of free trade. You can try and cut a balance between all of the concerns, but it seems that whenever government tries for nuance it ends up creating a very expensive bureaucracy.

Incorporation is just governments franchising. Before you have a massive central administration, you use "tax farmers" to collect revenue. Before you have the technical ability for a total centralization of surveillance and control, you have corporations.

can we infer from this that you believe there's some kind of central government conspiracy that never changes and is always pushing ahead with the exact same very specific plan?

Somehow comments like these are left to stand, so here's a counterpoint.

Amazon has emerged as an oligarch that will be broken up like the Bell system, Standard Oil, rail monopolies, and others before it - provided it and other oligarchs haven't fully compromised the government who hosts it. If Amazon, and the other FAANGs operating predatory surveiilance bureaucracies continue to exist in their current form in 4-5 years, we will know for sure the US is irrepairably compromised and once again, a generation will need to reckon with whether their self determination and survival is worth accepting sacrifices for.

Late stage capitalism is indeed dystopian, but if we call it early stage socialism somehow we're conspiracy theorists. The failure mode of the principled civilization created by the founders of the US reverts to the eurasian continential cultures and systems its citizens escaped. Those were pretty brutal, so much so that their own colonists revolted against them and achieved independence, and that's why american values are important to teach.

Every human endeavour fails without maintenance and upkeep. Being on the side of the forces of failure isn't the right side of history, it's forfeiting your humanity to the currents of inevitability.

If we're going to let tedious, low-effort tropes about "capitalism" stand, consider this one rebutted.

>if we call [late stage capitalism] early stage socialism somehow we're conspiracy theorists

sounds good to me. over time the world's wealth accumulates with the already wealthy. this makes sense, it's much easier to make money if you already have money. under the current system, inequality inexorably, unsustainably grows

last time we were here it took a pandemic, a massive depression and two world wars for serious change to occur. and even then it only lasted 30 years or so, until the Thatchers and Reagans rolled it all back. and here we are now. late stage capitalism once again. what will be the final domino before change this time? nuclear war? some kind of AI disaster? hyperinflation? Covid clearly wasn't enough.

it seems like kind of the people that would typically be concerning themselves with this kind of societal correction have been successfully distracted by bullshit culture wars

Seems like a very weird way of blaming a well defined system for your unwillingness to meet its prerequisites. It would take approximately a few minutes to discover that you need the app to get into the store and get that sorted. You are capable of this, just apparently too lazy or unwilling for some unclear reason. The return experience seems entirely orthogonal to the rest of the story here, and I'm not sure why you included it.

For those of us who managed to download the app and login to it, walking into the store, grabbing something off a shelf and walking out was extremely convenient in a way unmatched by any other store. Calling it an unmitigated disaster in your situation is like calling a movie a failure because you couldn't be bothered to go to a theater and see it. Just bizarre.

> Seems like a very weird way of blaming a well defined system for your unwillingness to meet its prerequisites. It would take approximately a few minutes to discover that you need the app to get into the store and get that sorted. You are capable of this, just apparently too lazy or unwilling for some unclear reason.

Reread what you wrote, but this time try to think of a UI/UX issue that this comment _does not_ cover. Indeed, if we can start blaming the user for every UX trouble, this world would be a very different place, and not a place I would rather live in.

> Seems like a very weird way of blaming a well defined system for your unwillingness to meet its prerequisites.

> just apparently too lazy or unwilling for some unclear reason.

> Just bizarre.

This is a very emotionally manipulative and accusatory comment that certainly does not meet HN's guidelines, and doesn't actually address any of the problems that the GP stated.

No, I don't agree. I directly address the problems by arguing that they aren't actually problems. I feel I plainly stated the reality of the situation as it was described, and was not manipulative and accusatory in any way. I do not appreciate your characterization however.

I will likely not respond further as this will quickly become non constructive.

> No, I don't agree. I directly address the problems by arguing that they aren't actually problems. I feel I plainly stated the reality of the situation as it was described, and was not manipulative and accusatory in any way. I do not appreciate your characterization however.

You can't argue that something isn't a problem when it is self-evident. Trying to do so is manipulative, regardless of whether or not you appreciate that fact.

This sounds like something I would expect to hear from an MBA, not an engineer.

> I will likely not respond further as this will quickly become non constructive.

It was non-constructive from the moment you made your comment with highly manipulative phrases like "Seems like a very weird way of blaming a well defined system for your unwillingness to meet its prerequisites", "You are capable of this, just apparently too lazy or unwilling for some unclear reason", "For those of us who managed to", and "Just bizarre." Your comment does not meet the HN guidelines, was not constructive, and was downvoted and flagged accordingly.

Please don't cross into personal attack. It's against the HN rules and you can make your substantive points without it.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

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