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Comment by usui | Hacker News Reader

This is a moral dilemma that was invented and forced upon Americans by the latter group. If they invented it, they can fix it. I refuse to play along with a financially ambiguous savior complex that American consumerism features. The entire dining and commerce experience in Japan is leagues upon leagues better than in the States. At least there I don't feel like I'm being financially coerced, and the transaction becomes clear and simple for all parties involved. This is why I rarely go to restaurants whenever I'm in the States now.

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Yep, I live in Japan now and it's like heaven going out to eat here. No tips, no annoying servers constantly interrupting my meal, the full price is shown right on the menu, the payment process is easy and fast and doesn't depend on the server or involve someone taking my card away so they can photograph the card number and use it for fraud, I could go on and on. I wish I never had to go back to the States.

Precisely!! And unlike 10 years ago, credit card usage increased within the past few years, so that eliminated one of the few remaining complaints I had about carrying lots of cash/coins. Most establishments accept all common cards now, so going out and living in general has become smooth all around.

Tap to pay is common in the states, even at many sit down places, and is ubiquitous at fast food or more casual places.

I've never seen it at sit-down restaurants, and I'm not sure how they'd even do it, since frequently the cash register is someplace where customers can't even go. With fast-food, it's easy of course, since you have to stop at the cash register to pay, so the tap reader is right there.

In Japan, it's the same as American fast food (even at sit-down restaurants): you have to go to the register to pay, usually next to the door. In Europe, however, my experience has been that most restaurants have a portable payment terminal they bring to the table for you.

Strange. Almost all sit-down restaurants here have a portable POS (like you describe for Europe), they just bring it to your table and you can either chip or tap. A lot of Chinese restaurants use QR menus instead, you can pay by your table number at the website it opens.

At fast food restaurants, you just pay at the terminal you ordered your food at. At places that don't have that, like Dick's, you just pay at the terminal they have at the register.

The non-chain places usually have Stripe or Square, they all support tap or chip.

I can't remember the last time I gave my card to someone.

Weird, I've never seen this stuff in the US, this is entirely different from my experience. But I left the US a long, long time ago, so maybe things have changed. I haven't been back since 2022.

It might also be regional. The USA is large, and Seattle is very different from Miami. It was definitely like that in 2022 here, and I haven't carried cash in my wallet since I returned from china in 2016 (where, ironically, I had to use cash for everything because you needed a Chinese ID card to use WePay).

Can you bring your own drinks to restaurant as in China? Of course also no tipping in China.

Here in Europe you can get by without tipping quite easily, but I don't think they would allow you to bring your own drinks and honestly it also doesn't make sense. Why can't I drink my own drink, am I not paying enough for the meal itself that you need to rob me on drinks? Might as well not going to your place at all and eat at home, if you have problem with my own drinks.

No, I don't think you can bring your own drinks typically in Japan. I've never seen it. I haven't tried though.

However, unlike Europe, water is free and even though it's tap water, it's really good (Tokyo has excellent municipal water quality). European restaurants are terrible that way; they want to sell you ridiculously expensive bottled water that costs more than alcohol.

You can "get by without" tipping in Europe, but in some places (like Budapest) they try to guilt tourists into tipping the same way it's done in America with a place on the credit card slip while the server is watching, because they know American tourists are used to tipping a lot. Other places have a place to add a tip too. Japan is different: there is absolutely no tipping, whatsoever. It's not even allowed; they will return your money to you.

>This is why I rarely go to restaurants whenever I'm in the States now.

Please lower that number to zero if you refuse to tip.

No I won't, I will continue to go outside. Legally there is nothing the service renderer can do to me. I don't care how they think of me as a result. I've never been refused service before.

They give me a total price, I pay it without issue, and that's how it goes.

That's fine. Legally nothing will happen to you. Morally, I've never met you and I think you're a bad person.

What's the moral dilemma here? Who's being harmed? And who is responsible?

The moral dilemma here is that there is a societal expectation of a tip. The employee is not paid a living wage and are working for tips. You're welcome to opt out of tipping by opting out of dining at restaurants. Taking advantage of the societal norms is just taking advantage of your fellow human because it's "not illegal". It's shit. No different from driving in the shoulder because you don't feel like sitting in traffic or cutting a line and daring people to do something about it.

Sorry what's the moral dilemma? Not participating in society norms? That's immoral, you're kidding right?

As far as I understand society expects that people working hourly make a minimum wage. If they're not paid minimum wage, then it's illegal and their employer is liable for damages and punishment. What's immoral is a situation where an employer is not paying an employee the wages our laws require. There's no "social minimum wage" for tip workers. There's a market for their services. If somebody wants to do more valuable labor in some other capacity nobody is stopping them just as nobody is forcing them to work for tips.

Driving on the shoulder is justifiable in certain scenarios, like if you need to get to a hospital. It's not absolutely immoral.

I'd also add -- do people tip Walmart workers? Waitstaff can easily make more money than a Walmart worker. If the argument is that it's morally wrong to pay a sub-living wage, then whether restaurant work is more skilled is immaterial to the moral problem of unlivable wages.

But somehow it's moral not to tip a Walmart worker simply because of American norms?

Or just don't shop at Walmart.

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