I think we all know using difficult tools tickles our programmer brains, but you have to ask yourself, is this really better than using Bear etc. in 2023 for 99% of your note taking needs?
I think we all know using difficult tools tickles our programmer brains, but you have to ask yourself, is this really better than using Bear etc. in 2023 for 99% of your note taking needs?
People don’t use org mode because it tickles their brain; I don’t at least. I use it, just to take notes and manage tasks, because nothing else worked. I didn’t start using org mode planning to be a devotee. It was just another iteration of trying a note-taking and time management solution. Noteable other failed approaches include Todoist, an old school paper agenda and notebooks, or an attempt at using the iPhone’s built-in reminders and notes. Finally I’ve stuck with something. It’s a testament to how good org is that it delivered enough value while I was still picking up Emacs (for the purpose of using org) that I stuck with it.
Contrary to your point about org mode getting negative comments from management, my notes and scheduling in an org doc have gotten praise from my managers during Zoom screen shares. It probably only evokes comments because it’s different (as opposed to particularly impressive) but they are definitely positive comments.
It’s mostly not wanting to learn Todoist. I’d rather learn org mode knowing it’s mature. It drives me nuts when corps change the tools I use. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke, you know? The risk of having a workflow-breaking change at an annoying time stresses me too much. Org mode changes at a much slower pace, and it’s much easier to use an older version of org while I adapt to the changes.
There’s definitely nothing I do in org that can’t be done in Todoist. So theoretically Todoist would actually be better right now because of the mobile integration. I really like knowing that there’s a lot of room to grow with org mode, though. The workflow I aspire to is much more possible with org mode in the long run.
I've tried all of them, paid for some of them and while the best, Beorg, is an excellent TODO-app, nothing available beats the ease of use of a good Markdown editor. If all you want to do is add some notes somewhere or look something up, which I'd argue is the main use case for Org-like files on a mobile device, you'll have to make do with the simplest of text editing tools.
This is unfortunate, because, even though org is plain text it is very messy plain text and without a good tool it is unpleasant to use.
Contrast this to Markdown, which has dozens of tools available, with all the syncing options you can think of and it becomes obvious that Org, despite having fantastic features, and arguably being a better format than Markdown, is only useful inside Emacs.
This is fine if you live in Emacs and only in Emacs, but if you don't and you'd like to read and modify your files on the go, simply going with the format that for better or worse the rest of the internet has standardized upon, is the much better option.
I've got ten years of orgmode buffers and I'm actively working to transition to Obsidian because the mobile story is so much better. With plugins like tasks, dataview, and outliner, I can do pretty much anything in Obsidian I could do in Org, and I can do it on my iPad without having to SSH to my Linode instance first.
that's powerful.
In Org, we can do things like this:
* Outline element
text under this element
** Child of outline element
some text that belongs to the child element
etc.The outliner plugin for Obsidian is "outline only," if you take my meaning, so there's no provision for non-outline text in the outline.
Basically, in my imagination, I invented Orgmode and agendas, so I was super happy to discover that it already existed. That capability is weirdly rare in note tools and outliners. (I'm honestly still amazed that OneNote doesn't have this feature -- it seems like a complete no-brainer, and yet...)
Anyway, it's also a simple enough mod of the existing outliner plug-in that I'm hoping someone like me (ie, coming from org) will introduce it as an alternative plug-in. Honestly, a plug-in that would just parse the basics of org markup would be awesome -- with dataview, I don't need it to be capable of agendas or anything. I just want the markup & the outliner behavior.
I think it's fair to say that for the task of markup only, Markdown is lighter weight and it makes sense that it's implemented (slightly differently) nearly everywhere.
On the other hand, org-mode replaces Jupyter notebooks, LaTeX, and a dozen other things. This is why I keep using org-mode - not because it's better at markup, but because it's "good enough" at markup, and simultaneously "good enough" at many other things.
Many things in org-mode are modifiable. For example the "status" of a heading like "TODO", "DONE" and so on. You can add new words in document wide properties at the top of an org file.
I know there are markdown dialects, that partially cover this or that feature, but none to cover all that org provides out of the box.
The org format is much more suitable for any technical or scientific or academic document, that has any slightly raised requirements. In Markdown one often finds oneself using workarounds to make something look nice in the rendered output. Similar to how restructuredtext is powerful and can be used for academic paper writing and all that. Markdown is merely the lowest common denominator, too minimalistic for my taste. Good for a chat or messenger, but not really for good technical documents.
I still have to see a tool for writing markdown, that works as nicely as tooling for org-mode in Emacs, with all the things like changing heading levels for 1 heading or a whole subtree and export buffer or subtree, or cut visible or subtree, widen, narrow, folding, and all those nice things.
Speaking from an android perspective:
Best is organice (but requires local android webdav server if you don't want to connect to github) for most people design-wise I think.
Others will prefer orgzly.
> This is fine if you live in Emacs and only in Emacs, but if you don't and you'd like to read and modify your files on the go, simply going with the format that for better or worse the rest of the internet has standardized upon, is the much better option.
emacs is available on fdroid now and using a bluetooth keyboard it's a good experience. I hope to improve the touch experience, for instance I recently released a library to make clocking in/out on mobile or just by mouse easier:
https://github.com/ParetoOptimalDev/org-inline-clocking-butt...
I intend to try and make org-mode usable by touch in emacs on android eventually, but it'll be slow and according to things I really need as I need them.
Isn't it incredible that we've lost the ability, as a culture, to be on top of things without our pocket supercomputers?
I don't need org mode on my phone. I dont need it on every device I own. I use org mode on my PC, and if I need any form of portability I can jot stuff down on a little piece of paper.
Also, it's just text. We have countless services that can synchronize plain text files. Stop being whiney and pick one.
> And I’m sure managers love it when their employees need to give a presentation and they pull out the old trusty pine book
Stop being so snotty.
> and start presenting something they made in emacs…
Yeah, I love an editor talk actually. Presenting with an editor is a strong signal that a meeting is low-bullshit.
I had a professor who would teach from Emacs. She would store each section of the lecture in a register and paste as she went. (Watching her cursor flit around the buffer was actually strong encouragement for me to learn Emacs; it was nice to see how deftly it could be done without interrupting the flow of the lecture.)
She had slides too, but obviously being in Emacs for these portions allowed interactive displays of code execution.
I think there are two kinds of bullshit relevant to meetings. One is spin or dishonesty, and the other is wasting people's time. Presenting with an editor can mean that what's about to be presented is honest and straight-forward, being grounded in the actual matter being discussed. Or it can mean that an engineer did zero prep for the meeting.
And then type that back on a computer? No, thanks, no desktop-oriented note format is ever worth going back that deep into the caves
It really seems like people hate org-mode just to hate it, because they've heard so much praise that there needs to be some sort of counter-culture. Even if it doesn't actually make sense.
They are noting a serious gap in its capabilities. I say this as a long-term org user, too -- I've tried to mobile tools, and they don't work for me.
Org is great if you live in emacs and have no need or desire to access that corpus of data when you're not sitting at a computer. But in 2023, that's a pretty serious drawback, and pretending it isn't is a weird look.
I mostly referring to the "why do people keep bringing it up - it's such a joke" aspect. Well, it's obviously because lots of people find it awesome and more than adequate.
Org-mode files are text files. Anything that can sync text files will happily sync them. Anything that can edit text files can happily edit them. Sure, emacs is the best way to work with org files, but nothing is stopping you from syncing it with whatever you want (I use Nextcloud) and editing it with whatever you want.
I feel like this is such a key feature of org mode that people are missing. It isn't magic. It's just text, with a buttload of convenience functions that happen to be written in elisp.
The inability to fold headings alone is a dealkiller, and enough reason to look for something else. Which is why Obsidian is so interesting to a lot of folks who use orgmode but are not attached to emacs at a religious level.
Org is easier to use and more capable now than it was then, and so is the tooling around it. That includes mobile; most, maybe all, of the apps linked from the article didn't exist back then, and there are several others not mentioned there. The community's grown significantly, too.
So I'm not sure what point you think you're making here, but what I'm hearing is that you don't feel the need to have any familiarity with a technology before offhandedly dismissing it as meme nonsense apparently on the strength of a lot of people trying it and finding it good enough to be worth talking about. I wouldn't be comfortable with making such a showing of myself, but tastes differ, I suppose.
Giving presentations from org mode is sweet, because you can execute any code or examples right from the slides. Management doesn't need to know what the underlying tech is.
Having a Google Docs like platform would be very cool though. I'm surprised there isn't a secure P2P framework that can do this in a browser yet.
Overleaf for Latex is cool, but something that could operate on any plain text file like Markdown, org-mode, or Yaml seems like a cool idea: I suppose VSCode kinda supports this idea at the moment with extensions and remote sessions.
This in my mind is just sloppy, overcomplicated, rent-seeking crap. It fails to meet even a single of the fairly rudimentary features i need for note-taking. Even a terrible text editor like nano would be more useful.
https://plainorg.com author here. Got plenty of happy iOS users doing those things.
cf. the section: https://www.evalapply.org/posts/why-and-how-i-use-org-mode/i...
If you just want to get stuff done, then something like Obsidian/Bear is really good. I actually swapped from many years of org-mode/roam to Obsidian myself about 6 months ago. My main reason was mobile integration like you mention. Obsidian sync is actually magic for me, a bit like Dropbox was for files.
Of course, Powerpoint is superior in some ways, so I still use it. And if the manager needs a document he can make changes to, then I'll use Powerpoint. But these are exceptions, not the rule.
> but you have to ask yourself, is this really better than using Bear etc. in 2023 for 99% of your note taking needs?
Only works on Apple? A non-starter for me. I type way better on a keyboard on my Linux machine, so any note taking app needs to work on it. And Org mode has been around for 20 years. I have notes I wrote almost 15 years ago in it. I want some guarantee that whatever tool I use will work 20 years from now.
As a general rule, if you have to pay for a niche tool to use it, do not expect it to last two decades.
"Who even needs a phone that doesn't have top-of-the-line imaging sensors! Are you going to take your engagement photos on that?"
Completely missing the point.
#+call: something(foo=bar, list=baz[,0]) this level of features just does not exist in Markdown.
Just not what it was designed for.
The benefits of org and babel are precisely that you can do it in whatever language you’ve written the rest of your literate programming document.
As with most of these spectrums, markdown is less powerful and less complicated. Babel is one of the more confusing parts of org mode.