Gut microbes could drive brain disorders | Hacker News Reader

Gut microbes could drive brain disorders

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122 pointspella82 comments

I had schizophrenia and still have, but it's now not as prevalent after years of eating mostly vegetable, raw, and very ripe, fermented sometimes (like when peppers, onions, garlic for example are getting soft, people usually call them "rotten", but I prefer them like this actually, there can even be some bacteria formation on it, it doesn't matter). That with regular walking/running outdoor helped me so much. A typical daily meal: Red/orange peppers, onions of all kind, spinach, mushrooms, tomatoes in a bucket, rince, add lemoon juice on top, and eat slowly, masticating properly, doing nothing else, fruits as well before or after clementines, grapes, figs, persimmons, dates, walnuts, amonds (depending on the season). (I'm not vegan but I rarely eat other things as I'm full with this, I started this because it was a cheap way to eat)

I don't have the link handy but I recall a study that found doing a bone marrow transplant from a person that has schizophrenia to a person that does not will give the recipient schizophrenia. More interesting is that it works the other way around. A non-schozophrenic person donating bone marrow to a person that has it seems to rid them of it. Not that this information is super useful. Bone marrow transplants are risky and painful or so I've read.

I don't think this is the study I had found but it's probably related. [1]

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5613125/

Thank you for being open and sharing your experience. I appreciate you sharing your dietary expertise. I’m currently in the middle of Dr. Hyman’s UltraMind solution book and plan to add your suggestions to my diet. Personally I’m diagnosed with Schizoaffective disorder, and thought to add my experience as well. I ate junk for over 20 years growing up which didn’t help my brain/gut.

In addition to foods, two things that have helped me tremendously and have not given me the horrendous side effects of Antipsychotics are what I’m currently taking:

- Sarcosine 1 gram/day (dissolved in water) -- An amino acid that occurs naturally in foods such as egg yolks, turkey, and legumes, and can be bought as a dietary supplement.

- BPC-157 250mcg ever other day (enteric coating capsule) -- Which is composed of 15 amino acids, is a partial sequence of body protection compound (BPC) that is discovered in and isolated from human gastric juice

(Don’t blindly take my advice or change medicines without supervision, I make no guarantees on efficacy or safety.)

I have a good deal of research notes on what I’ve found on why they work but hacker news has smarter people than I and would love to hear from others. The brain gut connection is massively important.

Here's a few studies on both for reference:

Sarcosine:

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sarcosine

The NMDA Receptor and Schizophrenia: From Pathophysiology to Treatment https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5518924/

Efficacy and cognitive effect of sarcosine (N-methylglycine) in patients with schizophrenia: A systematic review and meta-analysis of double-blind randomised controlled trials https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32122256/

Two grams of sarcosine in schizophrenia - is it too much? A potential role of glutamate-serotonin interaction https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24523591/

BPC-157:

Pentadecapeptide BPC 157 and the central nervous system https://journals.lww.com/nrronline/Fulltext/2022/03000/Penta...

Brain-gut Axis and Pentadecapeptide BPC 157: Theoretical and Practical Implications https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333585/

A novel pentadecapeptide, BPC 157, blocks the stereotypy produced acutely by amphetamine and the development of haloperidol-induced supersensitivity to amphetamine https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9547930/

BPC 157, L-NAME, L-Arginine, NO-Relation, in the Suited Rat Ketamine Models Resembling "Negative-Like" Symptoms of Schizophrenia https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35884767/

Gastric pentadecapeptide BPC 157 effective against serotonin syndrome in rats https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15840402/

Pentadecapeptide BPC 157 attenuates chronic amphetamine-induced behavior disturbances https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11978191/

I read not long ago about a connection between gut bugs and schizophrenia and how probiotics may help with that too. Looks to me like your diet may be doing the same thing.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342...

Forgive the following joke, however, I feel you may like it:

Spoken dead-pan style in Steven Wright's voice:

"I used to have schizophrenia, but they still have it"

Well I'm still crazy, but at least I'm more aware of it, and can control and accept it (no more OCDs though)

Please don't perpetuate misunderstandings about schizophrenia. It has nothing to do with multiple personalities.

https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/schizophrenia-myths-and-...

I've updated this joke just now, but they still haven't

Spoken as the magnanimous Stephen Wright the comedian ;

"We used to have schizophrenia, but now... only to them."

"schizophrenics used to make jokes to their friends... but now, only to us."

"I used to be afraid of schizophrenic's comments, but now I just dont know where they are coming from"

"A schizophrenic once told me this, and this is true, a Mayan saying is In'Laketch - which means "Iam another yourself" -- and this was my best friend.

So I had only one response.

"I don't even know who you are any more"

Steven Wright the stand-up comedian or Steven Wright the serial killer?

Comedian

Mitch Hedberg?

“I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too.”

Do you know how many calories you’re getting with this?

I don't measure anyhing to be honest, I stop eating when I'm full, and only 1 or 2 meal a day

It gives me enough energy to go get this food with my bike, 15km away at markets, also helping merchants, I do this twice per week. The rest of the time I work remotely for me real employer

The amount of calories is not only relevant, the way to digest it efficiently as well

how do you know it is from eating vegetables and not just dialed down with time or other factors?

The psychiatrists I saw years ago said it will only get worse with time, and he gave me an antipsychotics treatment, I tried 4 months then stopped because my brain was so disconnected, I felt like a vegetable, I couldn't even write or talk properly. Antidepressant or lighter drugs didn't have much effect. So I tried to cure myself with other ways (a bit coincidentally with food)

It sounds like you’re getting all the nutrients needed to create gastric juices.

Here’s a link to a study: https://journals.lww.com/nrronline/Fulltext/2022/03000/Penta...

As someone with Schizoaffective this works for me. Going to start eating more veggies!

or pharmanutrition as it's been rebranded :)

I have a suggestion for a test for you ;

A Yogi master I once knew said to not eat onions (nightshades) as they interfere with your psychic aura or something.

Since you seem to have a handle on your diet, may I request you do an cleanse of sorts and not eat onions for ~1 month and report if you feel any differences?

I wonder if "interfering with your aura" is just one interpretation of the inflammation and digestive issues that nightshades can cause.

If I was living before medicine was a common practice I'd probably attribute diarrhea and cramps to "psychic auras" as well.

Quackery around “nightshades” should sound the same to you as quackery around “psychic auras” - they are in the same ballpark.

Onions and garlic are allium. Nightshades are tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, and peppers.

I know, I should have been more clear ; they were saying both interfere with your mind...

Like I said, its just something I have been told - and it would be cool if somone could test it -- I eat so many damn onions a week, it would take me 6 months to detox from their sulfites.

Sweeeg potato too?

Serotonergic Mechanisms Regulating the GI Tract: Experimental Evidence and Therapeutic Relevance (2017) - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5526216/

> Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine; 5-HT) is best known as a neurotransmitter critical for central nervous system (CNS) development and function. 95% of the body’s serotonin, however, is produced in the intestine where it has been increasingly recognized for its hormonal, autocrine, paracrine, and endocrine actions.

Here's this chemical that we use to run our brain... where is it produced? Not in the brain, but rather in the gut.

> Here's this chemical that we use to run our brain... where is it produced? Not in the brain, but rather in the gut.

No, it’s produced in the brain, too.

Serotonin plays multiple functions in the body. It is also produced locally in the brain. It plays a significant role in the circulatory system as well.

Serotonin in your stomach does not migrate to the brain. You cannot eat serotonin and have it end up in your brain. You can consume serotonin precursors, which are transported to the brain and used to produce serotonin locally.

The body is very segmented, especially the central nervous system. The body can’t be interpreted as a chemical soup where all the chemicals are mingling with all the organs at the same levels.

That said, lack of serotonin in the gut also created thiamine deficiencies which leads to decreased serotonin uptake.

From what I read, the reasons why it's beneficial is that it improved gut motility and the intestinal mucosal lining, which subsequently improves hormonal, autocrine, paracrine, and endocrine actions.

Peripheral and central serotonergic systems are both relevant:

> Because 5-HT cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, the peripheral 5-HT system is functionally separate from the central 5-HT system. — Diabetes Metab J. 2016 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27126880/

> 5-hydroxytryptamine; 5-HT

5-HTP*

5-HT is 5-hydroxytryptamine aka serotonin.

5-HTP is 5-Hydroxytryptophan, a precursor to 5-HT.

You're right, tried to delete after I realized I misread but HN wouldn't let me

5-HTP can be bought as a supplement.

I've dealt with colon cancer in 2016 and again now in the present. I don't what the hell is driving it, but the gut biome is fascinating. It's definitely made me look at my diet and food variety much more seriously. I've started taking probiotics, drinking kombucha from time to time and adopting a more whole food / plant based diet. Does it have an affect? who the heck knows.

Doing the exact opposite might help — probiotics feed harmful bacteria as well and a different strategy would be to simply try to keep your microbiome as basic and unintrusive as possible, allowing the gut to calm and heal.

It’s easier said than done; recommend looking into natural antibiotics (eg cooked white button mushrooms), indigestible fibre to ensure regular movements, which more than anything lowers endotoxin load (raw carrot salad), carbs from sugars instead of starch, which get absorbed more quickly and won’t be very “prebiotic” (eg ripe oranges, honey) and nutrient dense foods to meet metrics (organ meats and cheeses).

Probiotics do not feed bacteria, they are bacteria. SCFAs, butyrate, etc. are critical components for overall health, and especially in colon health and the normal functioning of apoptosis and other mechanisms. Prebiotic plant fiber feeds the healthy bacteria which produce those. Eating WFPB helps the healthy bacteria thrive and starve out the bad ones. Trying to intentionally repress the entire microbiome is a recipe for creating an opening for unhealthy bacteria to take over, while also depriving the body of healthy microbiome byproducts.

I doubt that it's possible to target "healthy bacteria" with diet prebiotic plant fiber (probiotics are bacteria and won't "feed", you're right) -- it's random, unfortunately.

Low endotoxin load > health effects of butyrate etc, if you have serious issues like IBS or crohns

Outcomes are generally favorable with high fiber consumption, and unfavorable with low fiber consumption (or high sugar).

(Disclaimer upfront: I am not a doctor or medical professional.)

Kombucha often contains some alcohol. I'd suggest being cautious about alcohol consumption - frankly, eliminating it altogether from your diet would be my personal suggestion; there is evidence of increased risk of colon cancer from alcohol.

Just grabbing the first thing I found: "Moderate to heavy alcohol consumption is associated with 1.2- to 1.5-fold increased risks of cancers of the colon and rectum compared with no alcohol consumption". From here: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a...

They give several references there to back up that statement, those could be worth reading.

Best wishes for your recovery and health and longterm success.

Edit: wow, i'm getting downvoted? if i'm saying something inaccurate or inappropriate here, i'd be grateful for some specific feedback. thanks.

Kombucha has about 0.5% alcohol by volume [0] (a ripe banana has 0.4%) so it’s not really a reasonable risk per the studies you link to. I think this is a foolish interpretation and even as a non medical doctor it’s easy to look at the alcohol content and think critically.

Kombucha has 1/10 the alcohol of a beer. So you would need to drink 40 12oz kombuchas in an hour to be intoxicated (moderate alcohol use). That’s almost 4 gallons and really not practical a single time, much less daily like what contributes to colon cancer risk.

I suspect you’re being downvoted because your comment is low value, wrong, and doesn’t need to be seen. For specific feedback, I think you can think critically about whether the level of alcohol applies to the advice you give.

It’s the dose that makes toxicity. Working to eliminate completely things that don’t matter reflect a wrong understanding of nature.

[0] https://www.no1living.com/blogs/blog/is-kombucha-alcoholic

Alcohol is a high energy, reactive species. Both it and its downstream metabolic products cause a host of DNA degradation: cross-linking, etc. Accumulation of this class of damage causes aging, cancer, dysfunction, and other cellular disease states.

Every nutritive food we intake, including the gaseous and reactive molecular oxygen, is reactive and damaging. Some are worse than others, but we can control what we consume.

In time, our view of many of the things we do - breathing dirty air, consuming too much alcohol, maintaining an unhealthy gut microbiomes, etc., will inform new habits.

We don't know what the lower bound of safe alcohol consumption is. Modest consumption probably increases risks, but it may be negligible against the background noise of everything else we bump into. The effects will also sum with any other bad habits an individual may have. Population studies are messy, but we do know the biochemistry.

I only had an undergraduate biochem + general chemistry degree, so I'm not "credentialed" in this space. I continue to read the literature regularly, though, because it interests me deeply. I do worry about alcohol consumption's effects on my health, even though I continue to drink kombucha and have a cocktail every now and again. It still wears on me.

We're all killing ourselves slowly through eating, breathing, and metabolizing. You can worry about it, you can disregard it, you can make small changes, etc. We're all dying, though.

> We don't know what the lower bound of safe alcohol consumption is.

You’re right, but we have studies that show the levels that show harm. It’s possible that the alcohol in kombucha could harm us, but there’s no evidence. So it doesn’t affect our lives. The FDA doesn’t even consider it an alcoholic drink since it has less than 1.2%BAC. I don’t trust the government completely, but I think if there was any harm in the alcohol in kombucha (or bananas) we would know about it.

Again, you’d have to drink 4 gallons of it to get a buzz so even a baby’s liver can metabolize the alcohol in kombucha without causing concern for anyone.

Moderate consumption was previously defined as 1-2 drinks per day for men or 7 a week, which does not seem moderate at all. This guideline has recently been changed in some countries to 1-2 a week.

a 1.5 fold increase of risk is not necessarily significant if the baseline risk is low, but notwithstanding, I'm not convinced that actually moderate consumption of alcohol poses much of a risk.

Isn't kombucha way less than "moderate to heavy alcohol consumption"? Besides, small amounts of alcohol form naturally from stuff fermenting in your gut. To be honest, I would be more concerned about my tooth enamel degrading from heavy kombucha consumption (as it is very acidic) rather than the alcohol content.

It seems like the question you're posing is: in the context of colon cancer risk, if one's alcohol consumption isn't enough to reach the category of "moderate", does that mean the increased risk is zero (or insignificant)? I don't know the answer to that. That's something that could perhaps be determined by reviewing the literature.

Edit: Not that anyone cares, but I guess I'll say a bit more: I don't know what brand of kombucha OP drinks, or how much of it, and how many grams of alcohol that sums up to, and what the current body of research says (or doesn't) regarding the precise amount of risk incurred or not from that amount of alcohol ... but the fact is, there's extensive research on the association between alcohol and cancer and I stand by the suggestions that someone dealing with recurrent colon cancer should be cautious about alcohol consumption, and that it could be worth reviewing existing research on the matter.

It’s not reasonable to conclude that because moderate alcohol causes an effect that less than that causes a diminished effect.

You need evidence, or at least some logical basis, to make a claim or believe such a thing.

You can review the literature to find something. Typically is a paper is publishing about moderate levels causing an effect they will cite or be cited by other studies showing effects from other levels.

There are many things in nature that are harmless at some level and become harmful at another level. And there’s no negative effect whatsoever from the appropriate level.

All of this is super interesting but it's been discussed for a while and I'm still waiting for a "do $x, it will improve condition $y through mechanism $z" kind of prescription and I don't think that's coming any time soon.

That humans are by and large a host for the bacteria in our gut and elsewhere -- and the degree to which these (happy or unhappy) tenants can impact our behavior -- is something I constantly struggle to find controversial.

Look at the mountain of studies on T. Gondii alone, and then tell me with a straight face the several dozen odd other strains present in our gut microbiome under normal working conditions don't exert any similar sort of effect.

"Happy bacteria, happy host" is my motto, I try to do things within reason to appease our tiny bacterial overloads.

(Unless you get a bad bacteria, then condolences to you)

This is some real "duh" stuff: of course gut microbes do, you are what you eat.

People with coeliac are often depressed. Sugar gives a rush and destroys food<-->dopamine. For autism, there's the very questionable "parasite" treatment.

Also, reducing acidity works wonders. Even Tesla swore by it.

If anyone's interested in "fringe" nutrition stuff, look up Aajonus Vonderplanitz. A lot of poeple will reduce what he said to "carnivore diet" but it's much more than that. Ray Peat, similarly.

A carnvore diet won't reduce acidity, quite the opposite. Proteins are metabolized acidicly, which you need buffer by eating food that is metabolized basically. Else your body is gonna take calcium from your bones counteract it to keep the bloods pH steady. Why does Popeye eat spinach? It's the most basic food we know, but it contains loads of Oxalates [0], which can lead to kidney stones. The classic scrambled eggs and spinach, as recommended by Tim Ferris and John Berardi. In his nutrition plans, Berardi always includes loads of healthy oils ( Monounsaturated & Omega 3 fatty acids) and vegetables (to counter the acid produced by high protein consumption) in his nutrition plans, highly recommended.

[0] https://www.webmd.com/diet/foods-high-in-oxalates

[1] https://www.johnberardi.com/

Where did Tesla mention about reducing acidity?

https://tesla-coil-builder.com/known-tesla-publications/103-...

C-f "acidity"

Thank you!

Read that as "Eat, Pray similarly."

About five years ago, after experimenting with some diet changes, I started having some pretty terrible digestive issues, like extremely bloating and indigestion. The issues would fluctuate, sometimes being much worse than others. Along with it came personality changes, like apathy, and they would also fluctuate along with the digestive issues. It's actually pretty scary how much it affected my brain. There are times when the apathy is so extreme I feel like a psychopath, and that comes from someone that once upon a time was vegan due to ethical reasons, so I am (or was) an empathic person. It really is mindblowing. The thoughts I have had and sometimes have would put me in a psychiatric hospital, thoughts I would have never imagined I would have.

Sorry if I'm reading into this too much, but did the symptoms you described above ultimately lead to you abandoning veganism? Also, what were the dietary changes that caused those symptoms?

Yeah, I ended up abandoning veganism, because I no longer felt (and feel) the empathy that I did back in the day (if there's much left). Being able to experience the world through the lenses of someone with low empathy makes you a little sympathetic (heh) to those that are born like that. Basically my decisions are purely rational as of today. I'm lucky to not be impulsive at all; if I were, I would have fewer friends than I do.

I briefly answered the dietary changes in another comment.

Exactly have the same experience as you. After I got diagnosed with IBS, I started having pretty huge personality changes lasting to this day.

No idea the path to recovery is

I also have struggled for years with IBS-C, SIBO, food sensitivities, chronic inflammation, and mood disorders. It all started with multiple parasites and infections (e. Coli, giardia) from a year in India.

Rifaximin, an antibiotic, helped reset my gut and symptoms would disappear for a while but slowly creep back.

The thing that finally fixed it for me a little over a year ago is a well formulated probiotic called Seed. They have a fancy capsule that helps it survive stomach acid before delivering the goods to the bottom of the small intestine. I had tried many other probiotics and every home fermentation project before that to no avail. Within a week of taking Seed I felt 90% better, and the improvements have stayed with me for over a year and going back to a normal diet.

Good luck <3

Yeah, it's pretty complicated. I have gotten blood, stool, and urine tests and all have come out fine. Food that previously would never cause any issues cause massive problems nowadays. Did your issues come from any dietary changes? How did they appear?

It happened over many months. I was a student at that time and had a poor diet. Mostly ate vegan food with lots of fruit.

I have had numerous tests done and everything came back as normal. Following fodmap diet currently but it’s very restrictive. Almost everything triggers my ibs symptoms

This happened to me too. Vegan in college for 1.5yrs and ever since have had ultra sensitive IBS. Feel lied to by so many people.

> Mostly ate vegan food with lots of fruit.

The exact same case for me.

did you track causation? like what diet changes led to the behavioral changes?

It's hard to say. The diet was vegan, but it was a poorly implemented vegan diet. I was basically eating a lot of fruit and legumes, far too much fruit I should say. Once I started having the digestive issues, I started reading about it on the Internet, and I came across some sites talking about copper overload, how vegan diets inevitably suffer from an inbalance between zinc and copper, but I'm not sure if it's pseudoscience or not. I do have low ceruloplasmin, which is the molecule that carries copper around the blood, so that is at least interesting, but yeah, could be coincidence. In any case, I haven't managed to fix it unfortunately, even after switching to an ordinary diet.

Your microbiome takes time to adapt to what you're eating and if you drastically increased fiber suddenly, it was likely not prepared for it. It could also have had a weak ability to deal with certain types of fiber. Often it's oligosaccharides (beans). The FODMAP process helps you figure out which fiber your gut may be sensitive to and then you can start low and gradually increase it over time.

The Baliza app was helpful in figuring out my own food intolerances.

Artificial food coloring definitely messes kids up. I haven't seen it explained precisely but it definitely seems to mess up something physiologically.

Why is this downvoted? One can find cases where this was cleary the case on the internet. I remember one case where just the artificial coloring in some medicine pill was the issue.

How does one know one has a healthy gut? Is it possible to have the wrong gut micro biome but not have any gastrointestinal symptoms?

You have regular bowel movements, nicely formed stool, don't have any bloating/burping/gas, don't feel sluggish after you eat, and you have enough energy and feel healthy

There are companies who will sequence your gut microbiome and give you actionable insights - full disclosure I work for one https://joinzoe.com/

> Created by the world's top scientists

Would inspire more confidence without hyperbolic claims. Or the auto-playing videos.

How valid are the actionable insights? Is there one set ideal each person should match, or is it individualistic?

Dr. Sara Gottfried talks about a slate of tests in her recent podcast episode with Andrew Huberman: https://hubermanlab.com/dr-sara-gottfried-how-to-optimize-fe...

While the podcast is focused on female health, the advice applies to men as well.

Yeah there isn’t randomized controlled trials or systematic review on any of this stuff so your company is glorified snake oil and you really should be ashamed. Get the evidence first before trying to take people’s money (AND data!).

What? Zoe is co-founded by Tim Spector, who is very well respected epidemiologist, Zoe did a lot of work in the UK on Covid tracking and Tim was awarded an OBE for his work, are you aware of that or just painting it with the same brush as all these snake oil startups?

Legit question: What does that have to do with anything?

More specifically: Why does being an epidemiologist qualify you to have an opinion on gut microbiomes?

Even more specifically: DO you have randomized, controlled trials to point to? Otherwise, this is just an argument from authority, and one who's experience is not clear is relevant.

I understand, but what I am saying that he is a respected scientist and is doing a lot of work in this area and is using Zoe to further this work, it might be a bit experimental at this point but it’s certainly not ‘snake oil’.

Tim’s papers can be found here: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=FIK--DEAAAAJ

What does Covid tracking have to epidemiology have to do with the gut biome?

Anybody that's dealt with chronic intestinal issues like sibo could have told you this. It's nice to see the research starting to catch up. Hopefully less patients will be gaslighted by doctors in the coming years.

So maybe all those natural healers with their potions and powders and diet recommendations, ridiculed in unconditional advocacy of western medicine, could help in ways unrecognized till now.

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