Wine Wayland Driver
gitlab.winehq.org
gitlab.winehq.org
A lot of these issues have fixes or workarounds directly in KDE.
For reference I'm using sway. swayidle is an idle daemon, where the maintainer doesn't think that it matters whether its connected to power or not. You're supposed to create your own scripts around it that handles ac connect and disconnects.
There's a tool to do flux like color warmth setting. One of them doesn't allow you to toggle, so you have create your own toggle script that kills or restarts it. The other one is controllable, but doesn't actually account for time or timezone.
XWayland has had 2 or 3 patches to handle hidpi when the main wayland screen has fractional scaling, none of them are merged and they seem hardly active. KDE works around that by allowing you to turn it off for xwayland clients. Sway just passes it down and blurs everything.
When I exit a wayland session and then restart it the screen locks up. This doesn't happen with normal X.
And then there is electron. Slack is not the only app that ignores electron settings and doesn't run with wayland support. In chrome and electron it's supposedly supported but you have to toggle it yourself? What is this madness?
These things seem like basic functionality for me. I don't really get it. Sure, maybe I shouldn't expect a proper experience for random sway tools, so that makes the first two points irrelevant. But the fact that years in they still haven't found a proper solution on passing down hidpi for xwayland? That's incomprehensible for me.
If you want "just works", stick to X and a mature desktop environment like KDE or Gnome for now (especially if you do any gaming).
Have we hit the two decade mark yet?
This stuff “just worked” in the late 90’s (and probably earlier, assuming access to unix workstation hardware) with X11, when it was roughly the age Wayland is now.
I'm sure if you restricted yourself to strictly first party native applications and a single display within one or two resolutions and no DPI scaling, Wayland probably meets most of your needs now.
I see you have repressed the memories of editing modelines in xfree86.conf :P
Besides, the anti-aliasing on the type 1 fonts would have been glorious whether or not the capacitors in the back of the monitor started smoking.
Or if you have the skills please contribute back and fixes these things that bug you!
I wouldn’t be surprised if slack just ships with a much older chrome build that wasn’t built with wayland support.
Also, have a look at Gnome’s wayland offering. It is by far the most complete as of yet.
Anyways, you can't actually do proper DPI virtualization for X11 apps because afaik there is no protocol for apps to communicate the scale that they are actually rendering at, so there will never be full support for mixed or fractional DPI in XWayland to the same degree that it is supported in Wayland. I'm not 100% sure there would be a point to making such a protocol at this point, since blurry-but-correct surfaces seems like an OK trade-off to keep things working in the long term. If you run real X11 with mixed DPI or fractional DPI, you get quite a range of potential failure cases depending on what apps you run.
At this point most of my screen is filled with native Wayland apps, and Electron apps that use reasonably up-to-date Electron (like VS Code), so it's rare to see a blurry window.
I'm not doubting you, but given that ChromeOS uses Wayland I'm very confused by this.
Take a look at the "blocked on" to see the kinds of things still remaining:
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=578890
ChromeOS implements a Wayland compositor to support Android apps running as Wayland clients. Chrome being a well-behaved Wayland client is something completely different.
Do you have any examples? I used ms teams in chrome yesterday, and it seemed to work fine with webcam and screen sharing.
Given the recent 3 years since pandemic, that should provided ample of time and test data for stabilization.
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=578890
Electron has different issues it's been working on, though. I believe it has some issues with window border rendering in some cases as well as issues with cursor size on fractional scale.
>One of them doesn't allow you to toggle, so you have create your own toggle script that kills or restarts it.
If you're not a fan of making scripts then sway (and wlsunset I assume) is not for you. My sway install is held together by a myriad of scripts - keybindings are handled by a script, starting programs via bemenu goes through a script, sway itself is started by a script, etc. That's just how this compositor and its ecosystem are designed - they're for people who want the software itself to do the smallest possible thing with the least possible assumptions so that the user can do whatever they want to fill in the rest.
Ideally you’d have some sort of offering that gives you a reasonable starting place with all these composable pieces in place, and then you can hack/replace/add/remove as needed.
Everyone starting from scratch doesn’t make sense. It’s like shipping a Unix system with no app doing it’s own paging because the devs rightly expect you to use some other tool to page output for you, but there’s no less/more installed (and no back buffer in the terminal or terminal emulator to boot). Then you complain and the answer is that you’re supposed to write your own (or research, download, compile, and install something someone else might have hacked up).
The sway wiki is pretty detailed and iirc has a helpful page full of options for various "not the compositor's job" tasks like notification daemon, app launcher, etc.
Sway is not a desktop environment. What you are describing is a desktop environment. I too would like a sway-based desktop environment. Let's stop complaining that sway is not what it is or that somehow this is related to wayland. This whole thing is just a consequence that writing cohesive graphical/desktop software is tedious and that tinkerers cannot rely on the myriad of Xorg desktop environment, in particular the modular ones like lxde/xfce to mix and match components.
> Then you complain and the answer is that you’re supposed to write your own
Yes, obviously. No-one is saying this would be a bad project. And if you blatantly misunderstand their project's scope it's no wonder you're getting dry responses.
No one is saying they have to be shipped as part of the compositor, obviously.
Thought I agree that for most people, a desktop environment, "everything integrated, just change this specific thing" instead of "let me just DIY my entire environment from those separated parts" makes more sense.
Says who? You're getting software for free, from someone who is not beholden to you for anything. Either you accept it as it is, or you fix it; that's the nature of open source. Whining about it on the internet is rude and disrespectful.
If you can't be bothered, and want all this stuff included, or at the very least recommended or installed automatically on the side, switch to something else that does that for you.
The alternative to taking a piece of open source as-is isn't "complain to the maintainer until they fulfill your wishes". That kind of thing is why open source maintainers burn out. You are not entitled to anything from them; the alternative is that the software doesn't exist at all.
If you want the Desktop Environment experience, pick a Desktop Environment. This can be based on sway (e.g. Manjaro spins), but sway is not more a desktop Environment than the Linux kernel is an operating system.
With X all these things are in X or the single shared X compositor itself. Yes, it's bloated and sometimes lacks flexibility in configuration or doesn't work perfectly, but there's no gaps.
I don't think the author is saying these individual projects should do these things, but if they don't, who does? It means that everyone using wayland effectively is using dwm, and dwm isn't for everyone (or even most people?). It feels like you're saying users should suck it up and learn to love the dwm philosophy, C and all, which doesn't seem quite right to me.
In this case, I use Fedora (Gnome). Most things are on Wayland and it works pretty well.
XFree86 (and later, x.org) have always had better support for hidpi rendering than MacOS X and Windows (by my definition, which is based on the quality of tear-free vector, font and bitmap rendering at non-standard DPIs while using mainstream hardware).
The wayland developers apparently couldn’t figure out how to read the X11 manual. Why expect them to reimplement it in a superior way?
I can only assume some other part of the team designed fractional scaling.
If everyone uses the API the "wrong way", now you're stuck supporting the "wrong way" or everything breaks and people WILL complain.
I'm going to disagree pretty strongly with that. In fact, I think most of its problems are that it threw the Unix philosophy out the window. While it's true that it suffers from having made everything a implementation detail that can theoretically be plugged in with a different component, the problem is that they forced everything important to go through the compositor, which bottlenecks composiblilty and doesn't allow you to actually replace individual components without support from the (usually incomplete) monolith in the middle.
Fractional scaling, hotkeys, gamma control, screen capture, etc, all have protocols.
What you would want to mix is a window manager, and there is no reason why that can’t be done with this model (and is pretty much what wlroots does).
But I do agree that a cathedral model can have benefits.
With X11, if someone wanted to write a window manager, they could do that and only that, without having to write a compositor or display server. Wlroots certainly simplifies those latter two bits, but there's still a lot of work to do to use it.
Beyond that, Wayland's mess of extension protocols are generally incomplete. I've been working on "porting" parts of Xfce to Wayland, and there are a significant number of things that just cannot be done at all right now without integrating it directly into the compositor process. The extension protocols necessary to do even a fraction of this table-stakes stuff are often experimental or non-standard, and even when they do exist, are often missing critical pieces.
As an example: say you want to write a dock-type app that only shows the list of toplevel windows present on the current workspace (and when you switch workspaces, it'll show the windows on the new workspace). Nope, you can't do it. The workspace protocol itself has been languishing in Freedesktop GitLab[0] for two and a half years, and even if that was standardized, it doesn't interact with the Foreign Toplevel protocol at all, so you have no idea what windows are on which workspaces.
So currently the only solution is: your dock app has to live in the same process as the compositor, where it has access to all the compositor-specific data around workspaces and windows. (Sure, you could build a d-bus interface, or something like that, but that would be specific to your one compositor... and a d-bus interface is the moral equivalent of a Wayland protocol, which is what you should be using anyway.)
[0] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m...
Er, are we using different meanings? Obviously something has to display pixels, but I literally do run X without a compositor.
> a window manager, and there is no reason why that can’t be done with this model (and is pretty much what wlroots does).
No, you can't (excepting rootfull xwayland, obviously), Wayland forces the display server, compositor, and window manager to be a single program. All wlroots does is make it easier to write that compositor, it hardly changes the model.
The price is tearing. Which may not be too noticeable at 1920@60fps, but playing a video on a bigger screen at higher refresh rate will very very seriously tear. It is not an accident that every other OS is compositor-only.
> Wayland forces the display server, compositor, and window manager to be a single program
Only the first two. You can allow a third-party program to control your windows’ state via any IPC mechanism you choose.
> It is a display protocol, responsible for displaying things. A compositor is a must for that, it is not additional complexity at all.
Which is just false; a compositor isn't a must unless you move the goalposts beyond "displaying things".
> You can allow a third-party program to control your windows’ state via any IPC mechanism you choose.
I guess you could, by adding a lot of API surface; has literally anyone ever done this, or is it just a hypothetical solution? Because I'm not aware of any existing compositor that lets you plug in a window manager.
> But the fact that years in they still haven't found a proper solution on passing down hidpi for xwayland? That's incomprehensible for me.
It's crazy how this is incomprehensible despite it being explained quite clearly every time it comes up. There might be patches, but they are incomplete and they are kludgy and the experts that could push it through ARE WORKING ON IMPROVING WAYLAND. If it remains incomprehensible, go read through the fractional scaling protocol merge and see how much discussion there was for designing that protocol, not even considering the X interop scenario you want.
You can: (1) try really hard to convince volunteers to spend huge amounts of time supporting something they deemed dead years ago, or (2) try to get shitty proprietary companies to, you know, fund a single developer part time to do basic maintenance, (3) use less crappy tools and/or demand that you aren't forced to use shitty tools.
Why is it ALWAYS that people reach for (1)? I swear to god I hope it's folks that don't do OSS development themselves. The entitlement and ignorance makes me head spin. But hey, random OSS devs are much easier to rage at than your CTO, or some random "chat startup" that doesn't give a fuck. So rock on with your ire against OSS devs not working on your explicitly deprecated scenario.
Regarding exiting and restarting a wayland session, how do you do it? GDM, the console? It obviously works for most other people so it seems you're encountering a bug related to your hardware or setup so you could file a bug report with the appropriate project (again doesn't really seem like a wayland issue though).
> There's a tool to do flux like color warmth setting. One of them doesn't allow you to toggle, so you have create your own toggle script that kills or restarts it. The other one is controllable, but doesn't actually account for time or timezone.
I used to write little tools like his and my ~/bin is still littered with scripts from 10 years ago
Nowadays I want this functionality to work by default and I won't settle for a less usable system
Alright first off: file a bug! How am I supposed to know there is a user with a problem, if they don't tell me!
That said not sure what you mean by this exactly... gammastep 100% does account for the local time. But it does choose the time of day to transition based on the location. Are you in a different location than your timezone is set to?
Yeah, the existing tools are pretty low level. For now you need to write your own "scripts" for matching different states from different places (e.g.: idle + battery charging state). Hopefully someone will build higher level tools on top of the existing tools. The APIs are all there (i.e.: there are no technical limitations, it's just that nobody has done it yet).
> There's a tool to do flux like color warmth setting. One of them doesn't allow you to toggle, so you have create your own toggle script that kills or restarts it. The other one is controllable, but doesn't actually account for time or timezone.
Try gammastep.
> swayidle is an idle daemon, where the maintainer doesn't think that it matters whether its connected to power or not
Sounds like a problem with the tool, not Wayland.
> color warmth setting
This is a general issue on Wayland but GNOME has this built in. I'm surprised that KDE doesn't.
> In chrome and electron it's supposedly supported but you have to toggle it yourself?
I guess Chromium's Wayland support isn't considered production ready? I don't use Chromium often but running on XWayland hasn't bothered me much. I guess this would be more annoying if it was your primary browser.
Even when the driver was being developed around 2021, it seems like the Wine developers only begrudgingly accepted it[2].
Exciting to see this finally hitting upstream. Progress in desktop Linux often seems slow, but things are moving forward.
[0] https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42284#c1
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19127952
[2] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wine-Julliard-Wayland-2021
However, for wine, as a compatible layer with windows, every deviation from windows behavior is seen as a missing feature.
I am not sure if constantly creating artificial restriction and working around them is "moving forward".
And no, it's not worth it. The amount of regressions are high compared to the rather questionable security benefits.
I have heard there are still some tricky impedance mismatches though. I have no idea what they're doing for the system tray, for example. Right now, if I cause a tray icon to exist in Wine with Wayland patches on SwayWM, what happens is I get a "Wine System Tray" window. Not ideal to be sure.
I can't live without Office! My personal favorite is 2010 x64, as Word then starts faster than the current Wordpad.
Office 2010 works great in Windows 11, but there've been some suspicious move making me believe old office version will be given a poison pill or something under the plausible deniability of "security risks of 13 year old software", like how Outlook 2010 can't connect to outlook.com anymore (though it works great with gmail using google's GWSO plugin)
On MY computer, I run what I want. So I'll try Office 2010 in wine within Wayland.
You can always do so, as long as you're not connected to the internet. In the same way that on your property you can drive what you want, but on the road there are minimum standards of safety that are supposed to be met, and some authority might enforce them. I completely relate to the "who moved my cheese?" effect, but unpatched internet connected software affects more than just yourself. This is not giving companies that completely disable software that could otherwise be hardened with some minimal loss of functionality (like disabling the old Office equation editor) a pass.
Vulnerable pieces of software can be exploited to receive or transmit viruses. The viruses spread through the crowd to anyone who is vulnerable. But just because someone spread the virus doesn't mean an authority is going to crack down on them for being intentionally reckless. If you crash into somebody on the road however...
The only thing I really hit that would be nice to fix is that it appears tablet support isn't in yet, or at least it didn't work for me. Of course, tablet support is a thing I generally wish could be improved in Wine, especially because Windows apps are slowly moving towards more modern APIs than the old wintab32 defacto standard.
Many Windows applications since Windows 7 support fractional scaling natively (125%, 150%). Is there any way of accessing these modes with WINE? Is this really the same thing as simply setting the font DPI scale (which is what the WINE docs suggest doing)?
Wayland is a new ecosystem that aims to take over for X11 (as X11 was developed in mind with a lot of functionality that many do not care about, and just want a desktop environment).
But it's a controversial effort, and Wayland still doesn't support a lot of the functionality even from the desktop perspective.
Wine is not something that lets you (just) play games, it is effectively a re-implementation of windows low level apis, on top of linux. It lets you call the dlls, and kernel functions, effectively running windows applications in linux.
The wine community is opinionated, and effectively weren't going to support Wayland; because it has some shortcomings in terms of api surface or ways that wayland handles things.
Someone decided to try to support wayland anyway.
That’s not really the primary job of these protocols - they are primarily about interfacing with GUI apps and displaying their content — compositing those contents on top of each other in one way or another is the job of a window manager, which can be in-built, or separate from the display server.
> Wayland still doesn't support a lot of the functionality even from the desktop perspective
This has been less and less true. Plenty, or even most distros ship with wayland by default and people don’t even realize it. Under gnome which is arguably the most complete implementation I really have a hard time listing things that don’t work.
It's the thing that makes graphics on the screen, i.e. why you're not looking at a terminal. For some reason, the decision was made to drastically revamp it in such a way that trying to switch caused a lot of problems. This is like a TEN YEAR OLD deal.
The only issue with wayland usage currently is apps in the xwayland compatibility layer are lacking the new features wayland adds like dpi scaling across screens.
I’m very happy that wayland + pipewire + flatpak now gives us basic security practices like apps having to ask permission to record the mic/screen/webcam vs the state of things in X where being able to draw a window also grants full access to everything.
As in, this is "taken care of" when you agree to install the application; is there any serious reason to believe that security against an "installed application" from a repo benefits from this rather fine grained permission as opposed to what is already in place?
And of course the real issue is usually just "the web browser" which, hey, all bets are off.
So defeating.
MS does a lot of things wrong, but backwards compatibility is still their strong point.
Tangible benefits of switching to Wayland. And by those, I don't mean "no screen tearing", since it practically did not exist on most desktop environments with half-decent compositors.
> half-decent compositors.
At which point there was no point of X11 middle-maning between the compositor and apps -> tada Wayland it is.
Also, screen tearing is a bigger issue on bigger resolution higher refresh rate monitors, hardware just grew up to 1080@60fps.
Chrome, for an example. Firefox isn't much better.
And no one ever said that every program will have to move to Wayland, XWayland was created specifically for legacy applications to be usable that won’t port over. (Though their number is limited, since most applications use a framework like gtk/qt/electron whatever and all of those natively support wayland without changing the programs).
Wayland means - for me - no fiddling with text files if I want an external monitor, roatated, with a weird resolution.
As far as I understand it had sync issues even on single monitor setups until relatively recently because it did not try to sync at all and instead just refreshed everything based on an internal timer.
For what it’s worth didn’t matter compositing is on or not.
To be honest the situations where I needed tearing free output on multiple displays I usually ended up configuring separate X screens.
I don't know, given that the UX situation in Windows UI - itself a inconsistent disaster that makes the disjointed things that make up KDE looks like a consistent desktop experience. They can't decide what UI framework to keep supporting, they keep changing what you're supposed to use to build your GUI every bunch of years.
As for the Apple side, well, destroying everything every few years with almost no regards for backwards compatibility isn't "figured out 20 years ago".
On Windows not all Apps do scale on a HiDPI display. You then have to fiddle in the program's launch options and hope it's not too blurry when scaled.
Wayland does only have blurriness with certain Xwayland embeddings.
It's not a solved problem.
I ran a few tests and it works for games well already, but there are still some issues to iron out. I'll run more tests once it's upstreamed.
Not according to their references.
> They created SteamOS for Valve.
Obviously not. They created some parts of the update system for SteamOS 3.0.