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Comment by rcarr | Hacker News Reader

I worked as a barista for years, including Costa, Caffe Nero, and high end independent coffee shops that get mentioned in guidebooks. What do I drink today? 'Barista style' fine ground instant coffee from Lidl.

I also worked in a ton of bars. Ask any good cocktail bartender what their drink of choice is and nine times out of ten they'll say a bottle of beer.

If you've had to spend a good chunk of your life fannying around with this marlarkey to make a living, more often than not you want nothing to do with it. Is it better than the instant coffee? Yeah. Is it worth the money, maintenance and hassle? Probably not unless you're loaded. If ever there was an indicator of a privileged existence, fucking about with coffee is it.

Yes, I know I need to stop being grumpy. I'm trying to work on it.

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On a scale where one extreme is buying a refractometer to optimize every last aspect of coffee making, and the other end is instant coffee from Lidl, there is a wide range in the middle.

V60, Aeropress (only one needed, but I like both for some variety), a decent hand grinder, and good beans is hardly that much money (amortized over years of use, or "cost per wear"), let alone maintenance.

I bought these around 10 years ago (well, v60 twice, I broke it, and I like it ceramic, and I have to buy beans every few weeks), and they are still going strong. The process takes about 5 minutes total time, including brewing. I would never replace it with an instant coffee, I would rather stop drinking coffee altogether.

It does make traveling a bit tricky, as I refuse to carry additional gear around, and don't always have access to good coffee places.

I have to admit, in the beginning, I was looking for the holy grail setup like with other hobbies, but luckily, was not wealthy enough to sink a ton of money into it.

Same here, it's the Pareto principle in action. I even run a Chemex filter under a basic Mr. Coffee which works great since most of the benefit of a Chemex is its filters.

v60 is a really great middle ground. If I’m traveling and the coffee is garbage I’ll happily drink tea.

What do you do for beans? I got tired of paying $20-$30/lb for decent stuff so I roast my own. Costs $6-$10/lb for beans from Sweet Maria’s, which me and my wife go through in about a week.

A wonderfully British comment. Grumpiness, malarkey, Costa Coffee, Lidl, fannying around. It's got it all.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Glad you enjoyed it.

> If ever there was an indicator of a privileged existence, fucking about with coffee is it.

I don't disagree but this is a little harsh for what can be a relatively cheap hobby and a great way to support local businesses. If someone is a coffee drinker anyway, has a spare 5 minutes, and can stomach like $100 entry cost and higher cost beans then do we need to knock them down for it? Sure people can go overboard and that's pretty gross, especially when the production side of things is not getting the same level of attention.

I think there's a sizeable difference between a $100 grinder + press/moka or whatever and a $700~$1000ish kit for espresso people are touting here as "fun, cheap way to learn".

This is hacker news though. The average audience member is almost certainly gainfully employed. Spending $1k on a lifelong hobby/daily routine is incredibly cheap in almost all regards except one upfront cost.

>> do we need to knock them down for it?

No, allow people to do what they want without judgement - even if it seems dumb. Focus attention on people that are legitimately causing harm.

I agree that coffee prep is over-fetishized, but going to instant coffee seems extreme. At least to me, it's pretty disgusting. But spend like $800-$1600 on a nice grinder and espresso machine that lasts a decade or more, buy whatever brand of beans they have this week at Costco, and you can have really nice coffee without any futzing or making a deal of it.

The wife recently got some instant "espresso"-type instant coffee, and I was amazed at how inoffensive it tasted. Would never swap my whole beans for it given the choice, but it was drinkable. Methinks some progress may have been made.

Was it the gold medallion brand with the green lid? That is my wife and I’s favorite.

I don't think so but I'll look out for it. Might have been Nescafe Gold.

I found the one we like: Medaglia d’oro. It sounds fancy but it’s pretty common and minimally more expensive than basic instant coffee.

A couple years ago I tried a taste test of many and we liked that one the best.

I couldn’t drink it every day, but I can’t imagine a better solution for backpacking.

I recently found some instant coffee that's almost good. I bought it for a hot chocolate x instant coffee but it blew my mind. Definitely not my first choice but it can be very drinkable.

Instant coffee has definitely improved. It's been improving ever since Starbucks nailed it with VIA in 2009.

Community Coffee is my go-to instant

You can also save like half the money by making that a hand grinder, and there's fewer parts to break. 30 seconds of mindless spinning really isn't much.

I concur. Big fan of 1Zpresso manual grinders. Equivalent to a 4-8x expensive electronic grinder.

> But spend like $800-$1600 on

Top of the list for phrases that a person making barista wages will think is absolutely insane.

$800 for a grinder and espresso machine? That's not bad at all. Compare with someone who gets a starbucks coffee once per day, they'll make back the $800 in savings in like 4 months.

Classic "get into espresso to save money" lol. Espresso is definitely a pretty expensive hobby (tho doesn't NEED to be). But coffee can be cheap. $100-200 BIFL hand grinder, and like $50 for a brewer + tons of paper filters.

> But coffee can be cheap. $100-200 BIFL hand grinder, and like $50 for a brewer + tons of paper filters

(if you're trying to do decent coffee for cheap, a $40 hand grinder and a $10 french press is fine once you get a good technique.)

I am not sure I am aware of a great $40 hand grinder. I'd at least go for the Q2 Heptagonal, which is like $80-$100 depending on sales. Used I think you can pick one up for $60-70. But I agree on the french press. It is really forgiving. Worth buying a cheap electric kettle for convenience.

Hario Mini Mill Slim. It's not fantastic, but it's a burr grinder, and it's consistent enough for french press in my experience. Too slow for fine grind settings though. Bought one as a student ~15 years ago. Options were much more limited i.e. nonexistent at that time, but it's still my camping/travel hand grinder.

1zpresso grinders are fantastic and (as you said earlier) a buy-it-for-life thing. But if you're struggling with cost, a Hario is much better and not much more than an electric blade grinder.

Yeah. The 1zpresso grinder is really another level tho. The coffee will be much better than the mini mill. But I won't really knock it. I'd just suggest the upgrade if you can afford it.

I've used their grinders before and loved them, but they have some newer models since I last looked. The Q2 Looks like a great upgrade for my travel setup, and I'm at a financial place in my life where I can afford to do that (so likely will).

I have a younger relative who drinks instant or preground, maybe if I give him my hario he'll start grinding fresh

See if you can get one used for like $60 - maybe join the "Espresso Aficionados" (not just for people who like espresso) discord. They have a buy/sell section, you can make a post that you're looking for one.

This comparison never sits right with me because no one I know has ever bought coffee out every day. Everyone I know makes coffee with a machine, French press, aeropress, moka pot, or pour over at home. So an espresso machine is more expensive period.

Before I worked from home, when I'd commute downtown I'd usually end up buying a coffee on my way in, and then it grew to morning and lunch/early afternoon. Yeah if this isn't you then the comparison is void.

There was a time when my morning routine included a visit to McD for breakfast and a cup of coffee. It's not StarBucks level of expenses but yet.

You obviously haven't worked in an Australian city office. Every office has a kitted out kitchen, certainly with hot water and instant coffee, but very often these days an automatic espresso or pod machine - where it used to be a filter machine. Yet also outside those said offices (and even in the entry foyer) will be multiple cafés setup with queues of people throughout the day buying their flat whites. It's the new politically correct smoko (Aussie slang for a break away from work for a cigarette)

I'm on smoko! So leave me alone!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j58V2vC9EPc

That doesn’t mean all or most of the people buying coffee are doing it every day— as you said, lots of coffee in the office.

I work (US) where there is similarly a selection of places to get coffee right out the door, and they are almost always busy, but most people I know are not using them every day.

A rough estimate based on the # of people working in the immediate 5 minute walking distance and rough estimate of time needed to order and crowd size— I’d estimate they sell the equivalent to one cup to between 5-10% of the population every day. A slightly smaller % of actual people since some will buy more than 1 cup.

In contrast, nearly everyone I know drinks coffee, or tea. They’ll buy a coffee when they really want to get out of the office rather than a few minutes away from their desk, or want to treat themselves to a higher end coffee than drip or weak pods.

I know several people who go for a coffee once or twice a day at a cafe. Personally I do it whenever I’m away from home. Been going to the cafe every day for the last week.

I’d say this is very normal behaviour in Australia.

There seem to be a lot of Aussies here who do so and a lot of Yanks who don't (assumedly because they don't understand what good coffee is).

Most people I know buy coffee every day and are middle class, almost all of them are buying machiattos, flat whites, lattes or capuchinos. Most of them could save money - especially in the morning and on the weeknds - with an espresso machine and a decent grinder. Many of them have found the easy in between solution of a pod machine.

No one's saying that getting Starbucks every day is in the price range of a barista either (though they can probably get free coffee if they are still in that line of work). The relevant comparison is to the less expensive alternatives, like a hand grinder.

Or you can get a $150 burr grinder and a $30 pour over/French press. Why even bother with a whole machine like that?

I mean, if you like French press then that's great! I used to, but am not such a fan these days. The press takes a lot more babysitting and futzing around. Grind the coffee, pour it in the thing, and the water, leave it for 5 minutes, come back and break the top with the two spoons. You've now dirtied 2 spoons, the container, and the press, so you gotta clean those. If you made too much for a single cup the rest will get cold and also too bitter. All of the batch will be silty if you're not careful.

I just like the taste of an americano better, and I can make one in about 30 seconds, and dirty no dishes other than the coffee cup.

The pour over is better than the press but still, you're futzing with the filter holder, using a filter, pouring over for a few minutes, and I just like espresso.

You greatly exaggerate the difficulty of a French press.

My morning routine: fill and start the kettle. Feed the cats. Open my laptop and check email from overnight or start my Wordle. When the cat that hates the sound of the burr grinder is done eating, press the start button. ~15 seconds later pour the grounds into my press. Go back to the laptop. When the water is done boiling, wait a few seconds and then fill the press. Tell Alexa to start a 4 minute timer. Sometime in the next 30 seconds to 3 minutes, give the press a stir to mix in any grounds still floating on top. Go back to the laptop. When Alexa chimes, tell her to shut up and plunge the press. Pour 2 mugs and take one to my wife. Done.

When the pot is cool, pour the grounds in my countertop compost and rinse the plunger and base. Wash it with soap if I feel like it or put it in the dishwasher if I’m really lazy. Set aside to dry until tomorrow morning.

Whole thing takes about 15 minutes and 10 of that is for the kettle to get to boiling. Meanwhile, I’ve fed the cats and got my Wordle score posted to my friends.

The problem I've had with french presses is sediment and overextraction. How do you deal?

Larger grind size, shorter soak times, spoon off the light brown frothy bubbles at the top just before serving. All French presses will have more oils extracted than paper filter methods. The paper soaks up most of the oil

Your description sounds even more complicated than the parent's one.

More words != more complicated

If you made too much? Are there people who are this into coffee who actually don't measure? That's crazy to me. I make exactly enough every time with a scale

Spoons only come into play if you care a ton about a little fines, not a big deal IMO they usually settle as the coffee cools. As for dirty stuff? I have a water boiler so I just throw in some extra water at 208 and rinse it, done. Easy

With a machine don't you have to clean the casing thing that holds the grounds?

Same thing with a pour over, there's nothing really extra if you use a metal filter. Use the same grind as a French press and they drain just fine without clogging and you even get some extra oils in the extraction. Again, measure your beans and water so you don't make too much. Who's really out here guesstimating on that stuff? Guessing makes for an inconsistent taste and inconsistent caffeine dose

Maybe you should try Aeropress then. So quick and easy.

What? 30 * 4 * 3 = 360.

So someone could buy a coffee every weekday for 10-20 months before equaling this one capital expense, and that’s your argument for why wage workers shouldn’t consider it expensive?

I mean, a grande americano at Starbucks here is $5, and supposing your partner or roommate uses it too, and that maybe a third of days you have 2 coffees, that would cost average of $13/day so yeah, you'd make it back in 800/13 = 62 days. But look, if you don't want to drink coffee this often, or are even less precious with how you like your coffee then it may not be worth it, I'm not judging!

And you can eliminate the last 5 minutes of human interaction outside of work that you get in your day! What a win! /s

When buying coffee outside the home, it's also for the change of environment, like renting space at a table in a third space.

I don’t want to pay $5 for the 15 seconds human interaction it takes to make my coffee order and silently pick it up when the very busy barista shouts my name. The 15 seconds are usually pleasant enough, a smile, please, and thank you. But human companionship at the equivalent of $1200/hour is pricey.

People have interests and find ways to invest in them. You don't think there are people on "barista wages" who have saved up for a nice guitar and amp, or a gaming PC, a car that was a little fancier than they needed, or some kind of small vacation?

You can't have all of those things when you're scraping by, but some people outside of the tech industry do indeed manage to sort out stable finances and self-indulgences.

> You don't think there are people on "barista wages" who have saved up for a nice guitar and amp, or a gaming PC, a car that was a little fancier than they needed, or some kind of small vacation?

What does that have to do with people on "barista wages" spending $1000 on a coffee machine? Never happened unless they thought they were going to set up business with it.

Because no barista has ever bought an iPhone instead of a cheap android

And yet nearly all of them have an iPhone of the same cost.

It’s just one coffee maker, what could it cost, eight hundred dollars?

Barazza grinder is $100, and pour over sets are less than $75. French press is $20.

Kettle is $50, scale is $20.

So about $250 if you get fancy?

>But spend like $800-$1600 on a nice grinder and espresso machine

The issue with this pricing model is that it is entirely driven by lack of scale. Both grinders and espresso machines are well understood and pretty old tech. Sure, there are improvements, but I doubt most people can tell them apart in double blind tests from equipment that is 50 years old. Due to this lack of scale, coffee stuff gets into 1-2k territory even at the beginner level, unlike most other household appliances that are in the hundreds territory.

The only positive development I've seen here is that grinders from China (like df64) have become good and cheap-ish.

There is lots of innovation in espresso machines. Look at the "Decent"

There are plenty of home espresso machines below $1000AUD ($600USD). Breville, Sunbeam, Delonghi, Smeg, Bugatti, etc. And many of them even come with built in grinders.

Personally I wouldn't use most of the lower end options as a daily choice, but if we're talking beginner level, the range is huge.

You have this all wrong. Spend $150 on a grinder and $10 on a v60 and buy the best beans you can find and you’ll have excellent coffee. Too many people think equipment is more important than coffee. It isn’t.

There is a vast gulf between instant coffee and your proposed setup.

An aeropress and a medium-end grinder would be < $100.

there's a spanish saying, "En casa de herrero, cuchillo de palo", which translates to "In the blacksmith's home, wooden knife".

In English we have, “The cobbler’s children go barefoot.”

But you never trust a skinny chef

"A builder's house is never finished"

No, the skinny chefs are too busy cooking for other people.

I think you should? The “I don’t swallow what I don’t like” kind of chefs must be excellent.

Also the saying, "The baker's children are the last to have bread."

An way to link it to class (and $1000 coffee setups) is to mention the weavers of Mosi ramie fabric in Korea, who traditionally do not own any items made from Mosi because there's no way that they could afford them. The fabric was/is reserved exclusively for the wealthy and the royal.

https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/weaving-of-mosi-fine-ramie-in-t...

edit: one of the phases of weaving the fabric involves softening the fibers with their saliva. Saw it on a Korean reality show.

I think this is a common sentiment. Prolific coffee YouTuber, roastery-owner, and former World Barista Championship winner James Hoffman doesn’t do espresso at home, and says something to the effect of “home espresso is a hobby, not a way producing coffee”.

The guy undoubtably knows how to make coffee. But this is a silly opinion. I’ve got several methods of making coffee at home and the espresso machine is the cheapest, easiest, and best tasting result.

What is the 2nd cheapest, and what is the most expensive? And where is the aeropress in the ranking?

I've got the aeropress for something portable. Its good, it's nice, it's not as nice as an espresso but it a fraction of the cost and doesn't take up your kitchen counter space.

Most expensive without getting in to stupid hipster stuff is just a high end espresso machine, perhaps a commercial one. But the Brevile/Sage barista express is cheap and very good.

However, Hoffmann does not think very highly instant coffee, to say the least: https://youtu.be/8cIqLvJz8VM.

That's a video about supermarket instant. He has better things to say about specialty instant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuLWwZiIcl0

I'm not loaded, but I screw with coffee just enough to not have to drink instant. Besides the fact that instant (mostly nescafe) doesn't taste very good to me, it makes me poop liquid. Consistently. I don't know what it is - because coffee makes us poop anyway - but nescafe eliminates a lot of solids in my stool.

I have a pretty basic set up - cheap scales so I know how many beans I'm grinding, a Mr Coffee, and a Krups electric burr grinder. The results are Pretty Good To Me(TM) and my partner - who is not crazy about coffee, but likes what I can make for her.

When I want to get fancy I have a pourover that is handy for making iced coffee or some better extracted coffee than the Mr Coffee can handle.

I compare it to baking. We can easily buy a tray of Mr Kiplings or jam doughnuts from Asda, but we can also if we want to, get some flour and sugar and all that crazy baking stuff and have a crack at it ourselves. Some people go so far as to do that exclusively.

Fair enough mate, just don't become a hipster Patrick Bateman buying a £2k grinder to fill the void

A friend of mine once said "everyone needs something to fill their empty shell of an existence", and that seems to explain a lot of things people do that otherwise don't make any sense.

I drink whatever the local barista pulls. The value I get from coffee is in the five minute walk and the minor social interaction. We've got an espresso machine at home, but ending up with a physical cup of coffee is the least important part of buying one.

When my mother was younger and coffee was first entering mainstream Australian culture, she claims cafes used to serve instant coffee. When I was younger I used to think this was an abomination, but now I totally understand.

That has not been my experience asking cocktail bartenders what their drink of choice is.

OGD with a highlife back is a fairly popular choice in my experience…

OGD was going to be my bet too.

Oesophago-Gastro-Duodenoscopy?

Old Grand Dad (usually the bottled in bond expression if no other note is applied).

Right now the pound for pound winner in quality to price ratio in American bourbon.

Let me humbly suggest Rebel Yell.

Rebel lost its age statement snd doesn’t have a bib expression so it gets marked down.

I like it and would happily drink it though I’m not a wheated guy.

I'd say Wild Turkey 101 wins that by a nose. Or a beak. Nothing wrong with OGD though.

I'm more a fan of rye whiskey: at risk of going further off topic, what's the budget option of choice?

Rittenhouse or Old Overholt

I think we should differentiate between a fernet at end of shift, and what somebody orders when they go out for their birthday, etc. Maybe the same, or not.

Like, a shot of amaro would be my assumption of the modal stated bartender preference, and a shot of OGD or VOB would be my guess on the revealed preference. The bottle of beer I sort of doubt.

I wonder if this is an American/British cultural divide thing.

Holy hell, I feel called out here

It is the same for me in software as a software engineer. My life is getting more and more analogue and offline.

Any new hobbies in particular? Or anything you specifically cut out?

yes making music. No smartphone as primary phone anymore. Using old computer gear until it literally falls apart. (I am typing this on a Thinkpad X60 from 2006, fine machine)

IDK I can buy excellent specialty coffee for like $11 for 300g (15-20 cups of coffee) + shipping. How does that qualify as privileged? (I am absolutely privileged I just don't think this counts).

I love coffee and I have found a few places in my city that makes coffee I love. So I stick to those places and it really makes my day. Bad coffee makes me cranky! And instant coffee even worse! However if instant coffee works for you then great! :)

I still drink the good stuff outside the house, I just don’t mess about with it myself at home.

My wife has been a Starbucks barista for 17 years. She uses a K-cup machine at home. We had the fancy stuff but she doesn’t want to deal with that outside of work.

I think pod machines can make a pretty nice coffee for the convince / taste trade-off. Refillable pods would make it environmentally tolerable.

I mentioned in a parallel post, I drink perc'd store purchased mass market coffee most of the time. My backup? instant.

Now you’ve got me curious! Is that a recommendation for Lidl or just the one you find convenient?

Not particularly, I just normally do my food shop at Lidl and it's both cheaper and nicer than the Nescafe equivalent at the local Co-Op. As far as black coffee goes, nothing beats filter but I can't be arsed with the hassle nowadays so I just buy instant. If I want a nice coffee, I'll go to a proper coffee shop to get one.

Also, if I'm out of the house and buying coffee from somewhere that isn't a coffee shop but does have an espresso machine, I'll almost always buy a latte. 9 out of 10 of these places aren't dialling in their grind and get away with it (for the average consumer at least) because the milk will to some extent mask out the resulting shit espresso. You notice it way more if you drink an Americano and sometimes it's bordering on undrinkable so I always just buy a milky coffee from these places instead.

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