Camouflaging autistic traits linked to internalizing symptoms anxiety depression | Hacker News Reader

Camouflaging autistic traits linked to internalizing symptoms anxiety depression

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In the autism community we call this "masking" and it is not the least bit surprising to read this. I did not begin to learn I had anxiety or autism until I was 30 years old, and it's because the world trained me to hide away those parts of myself.

I did not realize I was masking for most of my life -- most do not since it's the only way they've ever lived -- but it is enormously taxing to be around people. Everyone seems to be communicating over a different protocol than you in such a natural way. But you have to study it, prepare for it, and then run an emulation layer in realtime, all to appear normal and natural. This leaves less brainpower for other things and leads to mental exhaustion very quickly. I recently heard it described as never being able to speak your mother tongue.

If you would like to read more about my experiences I wrote them down in an essay form [1]. I'd also recommend the Dave's Garage YouTube channel, by ex-Microsoft engineer Dave Plummer. [2] He does a great job of pitching autism as less a disorder and more an evolutionarily necessary mutation for the odd person here or there to have.

I'm very glad these studies are being done and I commend them. I also wish there were a bit of focus on adults with autism, who are often left out of the picture.

[1]: https://twos.dev/autism.html

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9X5DSnVms

Thank you for posting these links and for sharing your experience. Another autistic person here and just wanted to leave this comment here for anyone that might find it helpful (and don’t want to imply this is for you specifically either!).

Masking was incredibly detrimental for me. In fact I didn’t even realize I was doing it. Once I realized I was autistic (at the tender age of 31) I decided to stop doing so whatever the cost may be.

To my surprise, embracing my autistic qualities and understanding them has changed my life completely. I’m far more social now, and I realized that trying to be social like neurotypical folks is basically impossible if you’re autistic. However, being social like an autistic person is incredibly rewarding. Many people tell me they don’t even realize I’m any different, even though I’ve gotten there not by trying to be the same but by being more authentically myself.

It has been a long road (I’m 36 now), and while it has been difficult I can say that has been beyond worthwhile. We have beautiful things to share with our fellow humans, even though I think those things scare some folks.

If you’re like me from a few years back, don’t give up. We are our own greatest critics which is a double edged sword. You’re better than you know, and before you know it things will change in ways that are difficult to imagine.

Quick PS edit: apologies for grammar or words that are out of place. I’m on my phone and my fingers are seriously fat

> However, being social like an autistic person is incredibly rewarding.

Can you explain this? I'm probably autistic-- my son was diagnosed and from my and my wife's research I am clearly autistic but haven't been diagnosed-- and I don't understand how I would start to try and do less "masking". I don't even really understand that, myself, because I'm in my 40's and just started learning about this stuff, so to me, "masking" is just who I am to other people.

Do you have intrusive thoughts? I do. They used to come around and set off huge spirals of self-recrimination over the most pointless bullshit that everyone except me has forgotten about for decades.

One day, after reading John Elder Robison's books and self-diagnosing and spending some time in introspection, I don't know exactly when it started but I started doing what my wife describes as "Tourettes shit" when those thoughts would come - squawks, chirps, little dances, disconnected verbal outbursts - and over time, I found that they were dulling the effect of the intrusions, till eventually the intrusive thoughts had basically no power anymore. They still happen but I just Tourettes them away, for lack of a better word. The best comparison I have come up with is, the thoughts are like John Nash's roomie and the little girl and the other one at the end of A Beautiful Mind, they flee to a 50 foot distance as soon as they appear, because my squawks scare them off like dementors or something.

I have had a lot of thoughts about this as regards just what is going in inside the heads of people like me, but I'm not trained in it so I don't think I'd be taken seriously if I tried to share them.

My tics made some of my friends (in some cases, former friends) very uncomfortable. Another thing I realized during that period is that I don't care - I previously had cared quite a lot, but I have completely detached from that, it seems. Those same friends (the ones who didn't like the new me) brought either no real value to my life, or else were a net drain in terms of negativity, small mindedness, lack of ambition, etc. Life is better without them, I have more time to do really cool stuff. I make cartoons for a living now. That came after I did all the above, not before.

Just try to look inside your real self and allow it be. It could take years, be patient.

I've been trying to find a similar description of how I react to intrusive thoughts for a long time.

I'm unsure if it emerged as a coping mechanism or if I never associated the tics with the intrusive thoughts. It wasn't until I had a round of CBT I even realised why I was doing it. Like you, I'll make an out-of-context sound, click my tongue, roll my hands, double-tap my shoulder, etc.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this. I'm going to check out John's books this weekend.

From my point of view it's about expectations. An autistic person needs to have the environment adapted to endure while a non-autistic person is more likely to adapt easily. It all comes down to how much energy it costs to analyze and adapt the environment, for me that cost is through the roof. For kids this means that, no, you should not force my kid to do certain tasks, a no is a no, like grabbing the arm and drag the kids. Adapt the food in the school kitchen to things they like, it's very hard for autistic kids in general to eat mixed food etc. Lower the noise level in class. As an adult, just telling everyone that hey, I'm autistic, please treat me nice! may be just the thing to leaviate the tension. People around may find the weirdness explainable and that make it more cool than odd.

My personal belief is that one thing that autistic people in general are very bad at loving themselfs. It's very easy to critique oneself. For me it was the missing piece. Constantly talking about selflove and that I'm worth loving. Also talking to some exterior person who can after listening to all the critique you have about yourself, wrap it up and just tell you that you're awesome. Of course this is true for everyone, but I think autistic people may be the harshest to themselves (and in general may be hit and miss with skills, i.e. being expert in computers but totally suck at tying shoes, thus failing often which lowers self-esteem).

Feedback at work is often a pat on the back, but I really need to understand that the other person really understood my ideas and that we could discuss them properly. That gives me a sense of appriciation, while the pat in essence is meaningless. Maybe communicating things like that with co-workers will increase the reward at work as well.

Masking in a sense is about trying to adapt to an environment that makes it's best to make it tough for you. Letting people know that you find certain things very hard to deal with (i.e. uncertain chores, when is something truly complete, the most LOL is that my biggest problem area at home is that I can't fathom the way my wife organize the dirty clothes, just a big pile! I tend to stay away because she hates when everything is in separate boxes pre-sorted..) may give you just enough energy to make the day much rewarding instead of tough. Also my example with the clothes is a typical hidden energy thief, you think about it every time you see it, every day, when you get that stuff sorted out it gives back loads of energy!

At some level we always have a mask, a persona that we present to others. I think where the the problems come in is when that persona doesn’t align with our underlying reality.

I don’t think there is any one right way to go about this. Try and find the interests that make you feel fulfilled and find other who share those interests. Take time away from others in ways that make you smile. Find ways to dive into your soul whatever those may be.

In my experience, it’s a winding path and it’s unique to each person. There may be hints of things for you. Things that you have been drawn to, hobbies that fell by the wayside, or things that feel particularly “stimmy”. Wherever there is a hint of a loose thread that could be something, pull on it and see what happens.

I think through doing these things you will find friends, perhaps in the most unexpected places. And bit by bit, the feeling of otherness and isolation drops away. At least that has been my experience.

Thanks, that helps a lot!

I very much experience all of those things you mentioned, especially the masking and hearing hypersensitivity, but I guess I thought these were "normal" experiences... or more accurately, I never considered that not everyone might not experience life like that. Doesn't everyone get really bothered by noises sometimes? Isn't everyone putting out a lot of effort to interact with others well? I don't know. I am regarded as friendly, and having good social skills, but that took tons of practice and study. For example, people mention that I make great eye contact, am confident, and a good listener. But I never made eye contact with others until I was 15, when I read about the importance of it in a book, and suddenly realized it was a thing other people did. I started trying it out, but find it hard to guess how much is appropriate... and doing it too much apparently seems like I'm very confident, but actually I just don't know what to do exactly.

I'm late 30s, and my son was recently diagnosed with autism after having a lot of conflicts at school, and getting kicked out of a lot of schools. I didn't expect this because he seems "normal" to me.

Any advice on next steps? Is it worth learning more about this or doing anything about it, and if so, what?

In a word, yes! Here's some links for you. Maybe there's schools around where you live that have a more student centric way of teaching. Smalls schools may fare better than larger ones etc. I find that talking a lot about things that happen with friends etc help, why are people so wierd and so on. Like you said yourself, it wasn't until you read it in a book..

+ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_arousal_approach + https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3ABo+Hejlskov+...

Thank you, I ordered some of the books you linked!

Nice! I have more links but those will have you reading for a bit :)

Also, do not forget that there are loads of people both online and offline that are able to help. Connect with other parents in neighborhood that have the same situation, the office that diagnosed your son should be able to help, there tend to be groups that you can join, and "educations".

I am not a doctor. I am not trained in these things. But from the experiences you've stated, I am 99% confident you are autistic.

I highly suggest checking in with a mental health professional (I suggest one that has experience with autism, as otherwise you may get one who doesn't acknowledge its modern definitions) and/or going down the autism rabbit hole online to continue to see if your experiences align with other folks with autism. /r/AutisticAdults is a great place to start. I am also happy to chat privately, email in bio.

Thanks for this. It helps a lot to know other people experience this kind of stealth anxiety you don't even realize is there.

Everyone does this, except maybe narcissists, sociopaths, and people on drugs.

I think maybe you can affirm this point without losing sight of the particularity of how it manifests for this population. Or really, maybe its ok to not say anything at all here about something maybe you don't have epistemic access to?

I would stay out of it except that the studies are starting to claim that people are autistic because they are suppressing (or not displaying) behaviors that have been categorized as autistic.

What is the particular worry of false positives/over-diagnosis in this sense?

I consider it inappropriate to label a person's response to a social situation they find uncomfortable as being caused by a disability.

Hopefully there is more going on than the article says (hoping this article like any other isn't good at the scientific details). DSM criteria for autism - requires 3 specific social characteristics and then a bunch of repetitive/restrictive characteristics: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

Of course that doesn't stop people from misusing (whether "You're not autistic" to "You must be autistic").

It's a matter of degree. You can feel sad but that doesn't mean you understand depression. You can get nervous but that doesn't mean you understand anxiety. You can have back pain but that doesn't mean you understand what it's like to break your back.

Yes, but it's necessary.

Because just be yourself works well in Disney movies, but IRL, we have social norms and many reward/punishment systems depending on how much and often you deviate from them.

So you have to find a balance between being genuine and fitting in. Everybody does, but for some of us, it's more costly. Usually, the balance is achieved by having different groups in which you can adjust the cursor differently, like work, friends and family, if you are lucky.

There's a difference between adaptation (you do your best to fit in, knowing yourself, but you accept your difference) and camouflaging (imply you're afraid of how you look to others, so this is paralysing you, it creates anxiety, etc..)

When you are on the spectrum, no, there isn't.

It's not about you. It's about others. And a lot of it about what things appear, not what they are.

That's not shocking to an autist. That's factual.

We don't mind factual, we mind intent.

Just like I don't mind what you state, I do mind the virtue signaling it attempts.

That difference is self-confidence, and it's both foolish and disingenuous to label all people that have lacked self-confidence at some point as autistic.

Everyone who camouflages once expressed themselves to the world.

Except when it comes to bullying. Apparently bullies can be themselves all they want and they get supported because reasons.

In school yes, because it's a very peculiar microcosm. Outside it varies a lot.

I would think so. Two of my three children are autistic. My wife (who definitely is not), tells me that after raising autistic children and observing my behaviors while at home (i.e., "in my comfort zone") vs. in social situations that I am as well. I'm kinda surprised she stuck around after really getting to know me.

"You should go get a diagnosis."

My response is always "What good would that do?"

Yes, my anxiety levels are generally lower since I started working from home. I only have to control myself during video calls, which is much easier :D

I encourage you to seek out communities online even without a diagnosis! Many identify as self-diagnosed for the same reason you stated. I've learned a lot of tips and tricks that have helped me (and my wife) deal with it.

> What good would that do?

It's fine to just accept things for what they are, but a lot of things does not have to be that way. Would you do everything in your power to help your kids/wife? A diagnose would rather be a way to add a bunch of new tools in your toolbox. Showing your kids that they have the same thing as you might give them a better time identifying with their diagnose as well (the saying goes, I'm just like my dad, right?). Avoiding things to have a well functioning life should not be the normal, I guess that's why your wife thinks you should go get diagnosed, why not let her have some influence on you? She seems like a keeper. Figure stuff out while the climate at home is accepting, rather when it's war. Accepting a diagnose is never easy and it takes a good partner to figure that out.

From my own understanding, living with a social person that can intercept stupid ideas before they take fruit really helps. Keeps those close around at all times! :D

What geek hasn't been told that they need to just try harder to fit in with the neurotypical non-geeks and then all will be well? I have, in my younger years, where all the non-geeks seemed to have satisfying social lives and I didn't.

So all along the instinct was right. That I'm me, and if I don't fit in, it'll make me miserable, but not as miserable as trying desperately to fit in.

Time cures many things. At the age I'm at now, I'm comfortable being me, with my hobbies and my social preferences (admittedly, even without trying you learn to effortlessly "fake" more and more socially normal stuff - but you can also select your friends from a compatiple geek level). Not uncomfortable always trying to be someone else.

> I have, in my younger years, where all the non-geeks seemed to have satisfying social lives and I didn't.

Note that while I agree that autists are often isolated, the phenomenon you described exists for neurotypicals too. It's the social network paradox: most of your friends will have more friends than you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox

Also the older you get, the more of your peers reach the same realization, and you may find you have an easier time finding a community you’re more comfortable letting your freak flag fly in.

Maybe I have something to learn, but isn't that obviously true?

A lot of psychological studies are devoted to "proving" what are moorean facts to anyone with first hand experience of the subject.

This seems like one of those blindingly obvious things.

The comments on the reddit thread were more informative. If someone is autistic or thinks they might be then these comments from autistic people describing how they feel might help more and lead to getting help if they need it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/119ho15/camouflagi...

> Maybe I have something to learn, but isn’t that obviously true?

Many things which people find intuitively to be “obviously true” turn out, and structured investigation, to be false (often false apparent effects from some other cause, etc.), so structured confirmation of the intuitively “obviously true” is valuable.

OTOH, I think that this isn’t obviously true to most people, independent of background and lived experience. Maybe to most people with a certain experience pattern…

Agreed. I could swear this has been actively stated in literature previously.

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