ThinkPad 701C with a Framework brain transplant
community.frame.work
community.frame.work
I'm writing this on a 2011 MBP which is running Monterey because of OpenCore Patcher, and it's a bit slow, but everything about it physically is better than most laptops I would get for under £500. This with a faster processor, graphics and RAM would do me for another 5 years for 'general' duties.
The "e-shop" makes it quite hard to order, but... it exists. :-)
> Please wait some days ,I think the COVID-19 will go away in 3-2020 .
:( this makes me really sad... hope they're still doing okay now
> We are free now . So, we will ship some laptop now .
3 out of 60 or more.
Never knew there was anything wrong from the outside but I can't imagine wouldn't have worked loose over more time if I hadn't happened to have a reason to uncover them in the first year.
I love that I was able to replace a keyboard, but 3 out of 60 is a pretty bad rate.
They don't care about repair. They are optimising solely for manufacturing.
I just replaced a 2012 with a 2021 M1. Yes, it's faster. Not having to use a pad to shield my lap from the computer's heat is nice. But I would have continued to use the 2012 had the hinge not loosened to the point where the screen would not stay upright. My computer environment is almost unchanged; Monterey with OpenCore Legacy Patcher to Monterey, 16GB RAM to 16GB, 1TB SSD to 1TB, 15" to 14". The battery life is much better,^1 but I don't take the computer out of the home so it doesn't make a difference in practice.
^1 But not as good as I'd expected. I don't do anything heavy on the computer—browser, Excel, and ssh—and the M1's battery only lasts for about six hours. Can using Chrome as the browser and not Safari make that much of a difference?
On an Intel Mac from 2020 I'll get nearly 8 hours of battery if I'm not running a VM. My browser is Firefox.
I would expect M1 macs to run substantially longer on battery even if using Chrome (is that even supposed to be a factor?).
I lost my original Thinkpad 700c that I grew up with in a house move about 5 years ago. I don't think I'll ever forgive myself.
It's okay to be honest. Are modern TPs better built than Walmart laptops? Of course. But do they live up to the price tag and legendary Thinkpad name? No. Not at all. While modern TPs have dipped significantly in quality other manufacturers have been catching up.
Some of my issues with T14 Gen 1
1. Cheap daughter boards for USB c ports that hilariously die every few months, on a laptop that only offers USB c charging...
2. Keyboard is trash. I'd rather use the keyboard on my Acer Nitro. High actuation tires out my fingers.
3. Terrible trackpad. Absolutely terrible. Not just the texture but the firmware, it works fine for one second then all of a sudden, it's this laggy, unresponsive mess.
4. Cooling is terrible and laptop throttles constantly.
5. Build quality is terrible for a TP. Screen started peeling off when I dropped it once, the chassis screws are easily stripped, extremely thing plastic gets chipped, random components die and aren't easily replaceable like past TPs.
6. It's just buggy. Function key lights are incorrect randomly, when I plug in my mouse, the trackpad gets like 1-2 second input delay.
On the flip side I've been using business Latitudes and Elite books at work which aren't great but still work better than this TP.
I bought a couple of them for some of my team (for the better graphics in Linux). The controller firmware it came with scanned rows and columns of the keyboard matrix at completely different frequencies, which created this weird interference pattern where it would randomly swallow keypresses if you pressed them at just the right time. It sucked, it made the laptop keyboard unusable.
They did fix it eventually though, and I guess updating your controller firmware might help your trackpad issues. I'm a trackpoint fanboy so I don't know for sure. FWIW I'm a big fan of both the X1C line and the X1E/P1. My primary laptop for last 3-4 years had been a p1 gen 2, before I went all in on the x2100.
It always amazes me what guys in 1995 could fit a full sized keyboard with all keys in ~10", yet since 2010 the humanity lost this wondrous know-how and now even in a 15" notebook you would only get an abomination with merged keys and goddamn PrtScr instead of ContextMenu.
On the 2020 M1 MBP, you get 2 USB ports, and that's it! And they have to handle power, display AND headphones!
On the surface, not at all. It's a t470 with a massive marketing spiel.
On the other hand, if you spend 10hrs a day on a laptop, you'll keep it for many years, and keyboard layout is important to you, it may be a worthile choice priced per hour of usage. You can also think of it as pre-moded and warrantied thinkPad :-).
I have a couple of t480 and e595 around too but much prefer the t25. I also have a client mandated HP that, while it does have a track point, has an apple-style format and keyboard that drives me up the wall. Non-sensical unique layout, no feel in keys, plus dreaded combined up and down arrows (WHY?? There's so much room on that side! So clearly a choice of pretty over useful/functional. The t25 arrow keys extend down past space key, so they are full size, which neatly demonstrates their priority aligns with mine :)
But... life! :). Two very young kids and wife who need support through the day, so I end up using laptop as a lap-top frequently enough :). I take my dad to a doctor appointment, or work from friend's home, etc etc. Overall, laptop's keyboard is still important for my personal use-cases.
Some historical discussion on the topic:
>> goddamn PrtScr instead of ContextMenu
Please show me the people who needs to make screenshots so often what there is a key under right thumb.
> keyboard layout we know from the PCs in the 90s is the only correct one
It's not the best but it's on the every goddamn desktop keyboard. The only reason it's get constantly re-arranged without any regard to usability or common sense[0] is what someone needs to justify own existence, just like "web-masters" which "plays with fonts" because otherwise they would be doing nothing.
[0] how many times you powered down/pressed without any result Backspace only to encounter what it is not Backspace anymore, but Power?
more like its cheaper
I'd love to see that style of folding keyboard revived -- either as a standalone bluetooth keyboard for tablets/phones, or as part of on the the 7" to 10" mini-ultrabooks Chinese vendors like GPD and One Netbook sell. Or maybe a Framework mini-ultrabook with a 9" or 10" screen ...?
I would personally love this, just like I would love a phone with a physical keyboard like the old T-Mobile G1 but there is no mass market for it.
Besides that, Framework overall looks very promising to me.
I think they have a nice middle ground between DIY and "works out of the box". Yes, you can change parts if you want, but you don't need to fiddle for hours to get something going again. With enough money you have on-site repairs by big manufacturers, but if your IT guy can just swap the motherboard in 15 minutes with a spare one, that's even better I'd say.
I'd love to have a matte screen on their devices, though. That's something I really like on my ThinkPad. Besides that those devices look really good to me and my next device will probably be a Framework laptop.
Does anybody have negative experiences with those machines?
Framework owner here. It really is super freaking easy to open up this computer and fix things or swap them around. Easy enough for your average software engineer (who doesn't have much hardware experience), but probably easy enough for your average not-super-technically adept person.
On the whole, very happy with my machine. The touchpad wasn't registering all clicks when I first got it, but customer service happily sent me a new one and no issues since then. I also had a driver issue or two when I first got it, but that was resolved when I updated my drivers. I'd happily recommend the computer to any engineer or anyone with decent "techie" skills. It's probably not ready for your less-than-tech-savvy average consumer just yet, but it's close. Also, bonus points for the machine really looking and feeling very premium. I especially love the cover having the nice cog-wheel logo, but no brand name on it. I've had a few people tell me, "wow, that looks nice, what kind of computer is that?".
Can you tell me something about external displays? What's the most I can get out of it?
Right now I got one 4K display and one 1080p display but I'm looking into upgrading to two 4K displays. Is that supported by the graphics card?
My friend is quite the hardware expert, and has built and fixed computers of all types for decades, and his hardware skills are second-to-none. He bought a framework laptop for his significant other several months ago - let's say somryhing like 5 or 6 months ago. The SO used the laptop, then had to use a diffeent machine for work...so left the Framework unplugged for about 1.5 ~ 2 months....so of course, the battery lost its charge. This is not the issue. Subsequently,. when my friend's SO retuned to start using the new machine again, it woulkd not start nor charge, etc. Hey, components fail for every hardware maker, so not a big deal. After many negative interactions between my friend and Framework support, it seems like there is a bug in hardware that Framework blamed on Intel compoenent which potentially can prevent from batteries charging....in addition, somehow it also inhibits computer from using it while connected to non-battery power...in other words, the computer is not able to be used at all. Here's the worser part, the Framework support team stated that even though the machine was well within warranty, because they blamed Intel, its not returnable nor refundable nor even somthing Framewokr was willing to swap out...So my friend and his SO are no stuck with no refund nor replacement, and an unsable computer. Their only recourse now is legal.
I'm sure there are other details that my friend did not inform me about. But if this is happening to others - the poor support from Framework team - then this is quite worrying indeed. I counted myself as a big fan of Framework, and i definitely was going to get myself one whenever i am due to get a new laptop...but after hearing this horrorible experience fro my friend, i will be hol;ding back from buying anything Framework related for quite some time.
@martin_a If you will be looking into Framework, please do whatever research you can into their returns/refunds policies. Also, I don;t know how to go about this, but: please research what other experieneces other folks have had with their support department. Good luck!
I also bought a framework for my SO, I was amazed by how easy it was to open up and work on and how much effort they went through to make it all cleanly modular and simple to service.
My SO has been using it daily for months and loves it. I love how easy it is to maintain it. It's a perfect laptop for us!
I love this thing to the extent that I feel an emotional need to defend it. Great hardware.
I've talked about it plenty on HN before but generally speaking my maxed-out Intel 11th Gen Framework has been the most regrettable large technology purchase of my life. Bugs like the one you've described are just the beginning. BTW, they did acknowledge their culpability in this somewhat and finally released a BIOS update for this issue in August of last year. However, that doesn't do you any good as you're already in your situation.
The BIOS alone clearly has many outstanding bugs and with the release of the Intel 12th Gen Frameworks the 11th Gen has been all but forgotten by Framework. Just looking at the list of issues they addressed in a recently announced[0] BIOS update for 12th Gen (no mention of 11th Gen) gives you an idea of the issues present (and more) in the 11th Gen.
For many of us our laptops are our tools for our livelihoods. As painful as it was to write-off a $2500 purchase I finally gave up, went out and bought a MacBook Pro at less than half the price, and have been infinitely happier since.
The lesson here is - hardware is hard and fundamental. Buying hardware from a startup is generally a bad idea.
[0] - https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptops-are-now-thunderbol...
It is precisely for this reason that every PC I have bought has been a Dell with a 3 yr warranty and next-business-day Onsite service.
My understanding of that problem is that it's not fatal or permanent: it's a "remove the battery and clear the CMOS" kind of situation that's required to get things working again. A case where it was really permanently unable to charge or operate and was within the warranty period, I don't know how a replacement/refund would be avoidable in that case.
I got no notification by email or phone that they were coming yesterday. I was at work so of course I missed their call. I went the to FedEx tracking website, it said it had been rescheduled today, before noon was the expected delivery time and the website it should be there before 18h, again I was not notified but I was able to stay home today. Then past noon I noticed something odd, the package was still marked to be at the same spot as it was in the morning. So while it said it was being delivered today it also said that it was not in delivery state. So I called them. I got in touch with them, or rather a call center subcontractor where they can pay people shit, and I realized they didn't know more that I did. They confirmed it was weird and reschedule it for tomorrow... Is it going to be there tomorrow? I would not be so sure. I asked for proximity relay delivery so I don't have to wait home for the package and can't just pick it up at some nearby convenience store : It was possible... It would be there in 4 days.
To get updates from them you have to submit your names and email/phone it but they already have my it! I suspect they do that so that I can click that I agree with them using my personal data.
Also the website is very heavy and no I don't want a shitty app on my phone to be able to track a package.
So Framework if you read me please to using FedEx shitty service and use a relay delivery system, it's better for the planet too. It is stupidly inefficient to have a truck running around people homes in working days.
My advice to Framework buyers : Call FedEx immediately and ask for relay delivery or whatever it's called
I probably would have done the 51nb mod already if I could have just ordered the parts through a regular online store and not the cryptic forum puzzle that was required
From NICs and modems, to memory cards and hard drives—it was incredibly versatile. Hot swappable too, assuming your OS supported this well. It was the USB before USB, and for a short time there were PC cards with USB ports for machines that didn't have any. Even today, I miss having an internal slot of that size, instead of a dozen different USB devices and dongles.
But my favorite has got to be the Rex 3 PDA[1][2]. I've never used it, but back then it must've felt magical.
[1]: https://hackaday.com/2021/03/11/rex-wasnt-really-a-pda-it-wa...
My work laptop is an HP 1040 g8 with the privacy screen. It’s the worst screen I’ve ever used. I think an old TN panel from the early 2000s had more brightness and better viewing angles. I don’t understand how HP tested this and said “yep it’s good for a $2K laptop”.
Anytime I’m by a window I can’t see what’s on the screen. Working outside is only possible if you like squinting and you’re looking at a white background with black text. Not to mention the abysmal viewing angles keep you shifting on your chair as you read.
Anyway, having a regular 13in MacBook Air or pro Retina display to hdmi would be awesome. I don’t think I’d be the only one to use it. I wouldn’t even need a stand, I’d put it right on top of this screen and be done.
Well, that's the price you gotta pay for a laptop with privacy protectors - these things are used for restricting viewing angles so that, say, passersby on a train can't read your highly confidential PowerPoint slides full of corporate double-speak and general bullshit... and usually bought and required by organizations who think their corporate double-speak PowerPoints are so uber secret that it is worth making the lifes of their employees measurably worse in exchange.
Anyway, i couldn't even have time to work on it, as materials from the 90s didn't age well.
Just by opening the screen to boot it up a few times, the plastic case broke.
After opening the service panels, the foams inside (because there needed foam on the hdd for some reason) went into mist
so the MB and the electronic part was the only that was recoverable, not the plastic shell
I wonder if OP is having the same issue, if he tries to actually use the laptop
ThinkPads from outside/UV-heavy jobs tend to be very brittle, i've experienced similar things.
They had parallel ports, DB9 serial, DB15 VGA, and a couple of PCMCIA/PCCARD slots, IIRC.
Game ports were DB15, and as the Thinkpads were squarely targeted at business users, taking up the real estate for a "game" port would seem unlikely, and possibly even a turn off for buyers of that era.
At some point internal modem's and NICs came along, but I think we might have been out of the 90's by the time that happened. I remember juggling an analog modem, 10Mbps Ethernet and 4/16Mbps Token ring PCMCIA card, depending on what I was doing at the moment.
I have been debating what to do with my old T42 which I recently discovered has died, thinking I will remove the track pad and shorten the case to be just the keyboard which should make it fit a modern screen quite nicely. Will be a bit of a trick to cut the case down and keep it looking good but I am pretty sure I can manage it and this will take care of getting rid of the battery bay. Thinking of just sticking a beagle bone or two in it but I could put a dozen pi zeros in there without even trying but that would limit battery space.
I can confirm they were awesome, back then it was de rigueur to have a chunky docking station to mount your hugely expensive (and altogether hugely) CRT monitor.
The 701C had a particularly nice docking station too.
And nowadays even 10" screens in tablets are bigger anyway. You can always scale up.
Also, they used to be made by IBM "back in the day", until the chinese bought the brand and designs.
I think a big part of the appeal is that the business workstations were popular for businesses, and those businesses would operate on a 2-, 3-, or 5-year upgrade cycle and unload used high-quality workstations on eBay for dirt cheap, which also made them popular with the hacker crowd.
[1] example for t14 - https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T...
ThinkPads had a reputation for being durable, but also somewhat repairable, so something of a DIY laptop community developed around hacking on ThinkPads more than any other laptop brand. This is clearly the market that Framework wants to appeal to.
See eg:
"THINK: A brief history of ThinkPads, from IBM to Lenovo"
https://www.notebookcheck.net/THINK-A-brief-history-of-Think...
Plus they are the best thing ever you can buy used. Cheap, robust and better than anything you could buy for the same money.
Random ebay check: T480s 14" Laptop i5-8250U 8GB RAM 256GB - 70€
I mean, yes, the loyalty to Thinkpads was in part because they had great keyboards. The first I had new, an i12200 series model 1163, was a badge-engineered thing made by Acer, with nasty plastic screen hinges that failed, only USB 1, only 1 SO-DIMM slot, etc... but it still had the IBM keyboard.
But the thing is that since the ?30 series (X230, T430, W530) Lenovo has gone over to awful chiclet keyboards.
So the model you cite is a late one with a nasty flat almost-no-travel keyboard.
Which is why I only use ?20 series or older, which have the good, 7-row keyboards.
Liking the flat abominations more?!
Surprise is no longer adequate and I am forced to resort to astonishment.
They are great business laptops. Still amazing chassis quality and keyboard. Great driver support from Lenovo. I also get over 8h battery solid out of mine still, on low power plan in Win10.
But the business laptops of HP and Dell are also good, the HP Elitebooks and Dell Precisions/Latitudes.
It's just that when people buy Windows laptops, they buy cheap ass 300$ Acers from Walmart or a really expensive and loud gaming laptop. These business laptops are built to last for company use, and it does show. If a company buys 1000 laptops from HP, Dell, or Lenovo, and they are shit they won't buy from them again, so the quality has to be high. Yes, new they are expensive, but a lot of enterprise companies do 3 or 5 year hardware refreshes so used you can get them cheap. And company employees in general take care of their laptops or just use them docked 90% of the time. My keyboard looks new after 3 years because I most often have mine docked or hooked to an external screen/mouse/kb.
[1]: https://frame.work/