The inner life of the octopus (2022)

That also explains why they haven't taken over the world yet :)

They don't interact with other adult octopussies ?

I just finished reading Eric Hoffer's Ordeal of Change. It's a great book exploring the behavior and psychology of people who make change happen. In the last few chapters he summarizes it by saying:

"The severing of the individual from a compact group is an operation from which the individual never fully recovers. The individual on his own remains a chronically incomplete and unbalanced entity. His creative efforts and passionate pursuits are at the bottom a blind striving for wholeness and balance. The individual striving to realize himself and prove his worth has created all that is great in literature, art, music, science and technology."

It clearly applies to many apex predators that spend most of their lives on there own.

> Having these handicaps (growing up without parents and short lifespan) is one possible explanation for why they developed their high intelligence.

That argument makes sense, but is exactly the opposite of what we see in nature in every case except the octopus.

Intelligent animals tend to live a long time (apes, elephants, dolphins). One assumes that it's because the advantages to intelligence accrete over long periods.

If you're only going to live a few years, you want to devote all your energy to being strong and fast.

This is one of the things that makes octopuses so baffling.

I don't follow. Why should they develop a high intelligence if the don't have a chance to learn from others? Usually, these others are your parents.

And it isn't just a "normal" short lifespan - The octopus lifecycle ends with self-harm and what in humans would be called depression, in addition to other more typical hallmarks of senescence, and this is a complicated process involving a whole bunch of signaling systems which is centrally coordinated by an endocrine gland!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198452/

Yeah I seem to recall that essay was intended to mock Nagel's famous thoughts on the perspective of a Bat [1]

You may be aware you are on safe philosophical ground, ponderers of the hard question have pointed out there is not obviously reason to think consciousness is special to beings more complicated than thermostats. [2]

[1] http://www.philosopher.eu/others-writings/nagel-what-is-it-l...

[2] https://consc.net/notes/lloyd-comments.html

> No sense of time, no memory, no input at all. For all the rock knows, time would run in reverse, or jump all over the place.

Even rocks suffer erosion. There is a timeline with respect to how much the rock is being eroded.

I write a lot about geology and to me rocks are anything but static entities. Their timescales are different, but their memory structures are deep and long-lasting. To me, being a rock is to see millions of years of constant change in a single arc… well, unless you are an Archean outcrop.

A decent book on octopus intelligence (by the same author) is Other Minds: The Octopus, the Sea, and the Deep Origins of Consciousness [0].

0 - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374537194/

Why do you think that there's something that it's like to be a rock? Assuming panpsychism, you still need to come up with a reason that consciousness is aggregating at the "rock" level, rather than at the mineral crystal level or what not.

I am going to trust the octopus. Octopus eat octopus.

The morality of eating other animals is a messy subject. I don't think anyone can claim a perfect framework.

But they taste good, and they don't seem to sympathize with their own.

They are also a creature doing well in the wild, a generalist that responds well to ecosystem changes. As apposed to some other seafoods.

I don't go so far as to boycott restaurants which serve octopus but I refuse to eat them myself. I did try it once. It was not bad. But not so good as to be worth the destruction of a fascinating creature.

And yes, I eat pigs, cows and sheep on a regular basis. I am also not advocating that anyone mimic my food choices (which may be weird to see on a public internet forum).

Octopoda is the Greek plural of octopus, it's not a Latin word that goes -i. But as an English word octopuses is fine too.

> nothing experienced by it

Perhaps there's nothing real about human experience: it's just what a neural net does when it ETLs some training data.

And funnily enough, there's lots of interesting articles about aliens and octopuses: Want to study how aliens might think? Look to the octopus - https://www.opb.org/article/2022/03/29/want-to-study-how-ali...

Trending Science: Do octopuses come from outer space? https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/123479-trending-science-...

What Octopus Minds May Tell Us About Aliens https://www.npr.org/2022/03/30/1089748972/what-octopus-minds...

DNA Proves Octopuses Are "Aliens" https://octopus.org.nz/content/dna-proves-octopuses-are-alie...

Octopus Intelligence Sheds Light on Evolution of Complex Brains https://www.genengnews.com/neuroscience/octopus-intelligence...

Also interesting is the octopus befriending the guy, i thought

I came to say this, excellent book. And to add to user rob74's comment in this thread: If memory serves, in the book, one of the procedures to uplift the species was to lengthen their lifespan artificially so octopi could enter some "teaching feedback loops".

The first book in the series, Children of Time, is also fantastic. It's regarding a species of artificially intelligent spiders (intelligence accelerated by an "ancestral memory" based down genetically). He provides some really great takes on how their technology differs from humanity. Almost all of their scientific progress happens biologically instead of using silicon, so things like computing is achieved through manipulating ants using their pheromones', and combustion/metals don't really exists in any meaningful way, replaced instead with ultra-light-but-strong materials with tensile strength as the energy method.

I really enjoy Adrian Tchickovsky's work in general. Just a couple of weeks ago I finished his Shadows of the Apt 10 books series, and his world building is fantastic. I'd highly recommend his books for the Fantasy/Sci-Fi enthusiast.

Tchaikovsky's books convey an extraordinary depth of empathy and intellect, knowledge and imagination. I just finished the 10-book Shadows of the Apt series... highly recommended.

i was going to say that i've read most of his books and enjoyed all of them, but i i keep coming across new ones (and enjoying them)! golly, is this guy ever productive!

Wow this is cool. I just made a comment on how the aliens in sci-fi movie Arrival were awesome Octopus looking aliens called heptapods.

Add Iain M. Banks The Algebraist (his only non-culture sci-fi, as far as I know). Much of the book takes place in a gas giant populated by a race of long-lived creatures that are basically two octopi glued together.

Came here for this. He is unparalleled IMHO at putting you in the mind of the creature. His latest Children of Memory is eerie with its timing with ChatGPT getting big.

> Shouldn't we all feel the same about another sentient species?

It really depends on how they taste.

What are your thoughts about bears eating elk? Unlike some other predators bears are actually omnivores, and could eat other foods.

If we encountered an alien race that hunted and ate humans like bears eat elk, we would also be disgusted.

I've personally always held the opposite belief. If another species is sentient enough to kill & eat me, then so be it - that's life.

If I walk into the jungle and a tiger devours me, well - I lost.

If aliens come down and decide that's how they want to treat us - well, shit. I'm going to learn how to evade or befriend them.

A reasonably common theme in SF stories is that after we encounter some other intelligent, star-faring, race, that both races find each other delicious.

After reading about intelligence and feelings in other animals, I find myself eating less meat. Even fish & insects have been shown to experience pain.

> I would feel disgusted/horrified/angry.

This is the appropriate response to the thought of your species being slaughtered for food. Happily, there's no reason to assume that any other species is capable of contemplating such a thing!

They are capable of feeling pain, of course, which is a good argument against eating veal or foie gras. But it's hardly a reason to not eat any meat. If you're eating free range chickens or pasture-raised beef, it's likely that the animal you're eating lived a pretty good life and had one bad day.

While people aren't eaten today (mostly), it doesn't mean they're not consumed. They're conscripted and forced to die in trenches. Many live menial laborious lives so the few can live in opulence.

In simpler times, at least we could identify our rules. The Indians could easily identify the white British as their exploiters. Today we have an amalgamation of international corporations, billionaires, royalty, and dictators (did I repeat myself?) exploiting us.

My main objection to meat eating is the way we raise animals for meat, especially on an industrial scale. These animals are suffering immensely throughout their whole lives. I find it difficult to reconcile thinking of ourselves as ethical while we support these practices.

I have less of a problem with people hunting for food. The animals can live their normal lives and one day it's over, either because of a mountain lion or a human. That's the way nature works. Of course there is the problem that there are too many humans and they would quickly kill all wild animals.

What if plants are sentient too? after all, they react to stimulus and grow towards light, etc. Maybe we are just more keen on protecting life that is more like us.

I did grow up in a religious vegetarian family but my rationale for remaining vegetarian is simple. We derive all our energy from the sun. The more hops between myself and the source, the less efficient the energy transfer. For now plants to me is the most efficient way I know. I still eat dairy and eggs but no meat for that reason.

Ignoring the actual question you pose, I think it's really unlikely some aliens come here to eat us. We eat for energy and raw materials.

I doubt humans will eat for much longer. In 1000 years we'll have solved the problems with these meat contraptions housing our compute. We'll probably work on sunlight by then.

Maybe we'll borrow the genetics from plants. Fun times.