Tell HN: Oops Upwork did it again | Hacker News Reader

Tell HN: Oops Upwork did it again

132 pointsnatt_coppola60 comments

I've read some horror stories like this, but never thought that this would happen to me. Upwork, out of the blue, suspended my account, oh, and my payments are lost like tears in the rain.

This past Friday Upwork informed me that the were some "account overlapings" with an specific client, I provided Id's, answered questions, even provided long ass screens recordings of the conversations with this client, so they could check how much of a boring illustator I am.

Still they've decided that I was doing something shady and suspended my account with no further explanation ):

I guess I'm posting this to get it off my chest, but also to warn others as to how capricious and arbitrary these platforms can be.

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Erm I have no idea either way, but posted by a new account and currently 20+ comments (big majority) all by totally new users too. Like, registered 3 days ago and a single post to their name.

My naive bayesian classifier says: suspect.

Further: many of the account names look like they are generated by the same process. Two words, camel-cased, plus a number. All the ones I randomly clicked are 3-4 days old and have a single post to their history (i.e. the one from this thread).

EDIT the bots just keep on coming! Every few mins. I suppose at the pace if ChatGPT generation pace.

Right, I thought I was going crazy here. Has this ever happened on HN before?

Maybe it’s someone testing HN cloning

Huh, you right, that definitely looks like someone playing with ChatGPT.. question: why this one article? For testing, jokes, or because some error?

If you look at the bots' posts, they seem to be active on one or two other threads (all the same), like one about worst code ever seen. There they seem to post random nonsense, looks like poor AI-generated "content".

Very weird!

I think posts complaining against some bug Corp are the easiest way to farm karma points.

If I was trying to grow a portfolio of human looking accounts, I’d have them participate in this kind of threads.

I was hoping to get to #1, and make Upwork regret their decision, but a social experiment... haven't though about that.

That is not very nice of you.

They did something wrong so in response you do something bad yourself to a third party community?

Flooding HN with spam just for the feeling of settling your personal vendetta?

Cmon man. Don’t be an ass.

Hi, OP here. I have to say that I'm a human (as far as I know) my account is new, because I didn't have anything to share before, and now I have a great motivation to be complaining somewhere. Also, you can check Upwork, look for my complete name (which is pretty obvious in my nickname here) and see my lame Upwork suspended account, to check my story. About the rest of the bots, no idea. I'm just an unemployed freelancer making complains in HN.

Upwork is a terrible platform that I would recommend everyone to stay away from as far as possible.

Which one do you recommend? I just started on upwork a few days ago, haven't got anything - it's super competitive.

I think you are going to run into problems on most of these platforms. Either issues like the on mentioned by OP, or just having to compete against people that are willing to do the job for 1/10th the price that you will do it for.

For me, I got my clients through my personal blog about programming where some people contacted me and asked to hire me. You can also just start being very active on the relevant communities in your niche and build up a reputation.

All of this takes time, but I believe it to be the most reliable long term strategy to get work from high quality clients on your own terms.

I was able to scrape some clients and ending up making thousands using a normal first world rate. It is difficult to win bids because people are on there because of price. I left because they started charging for you bidding.

Bid quick, often and always go hourly so you do get paid. Clients expect the world for nothing (typical project is google for $125) so learning how to deliver within the requirements is an artform..always go hourly so you get paid something when these projects don't live up to unreasonable expectations. Be prepared for someone to scam you, try to go off platform, etc. Stay on the site.

I don't how you did it. the jobs requests are so thin that I'm afraid to make a bid - I have no idea what they are really asking for. if you _try_ to actually engage with your potential customer the platform comes swooping down and terminates the discussion because they are so afraid they will lose their cut.

and the guidance on rates is completely out of line. custom usb driver for $80? $12/hr for development work?

You won't understand what you are bidding on until you win the bid. Then you need to figure out how do it once you win. Filter the projects by US/Canada only. Bid on anything that sounds remotely doable. Don't be afraid to backout if the requirements are too wacky. I was able to charge $35 US. An $80.00 fix rate project should be avoided... the most clueless post will need handholding those are the relationships you need to build. Most of the work is building relationships

In my case, 100% of approaches were scams. One was quite scary, as it was clear the person had … issues, and they kept trying to get me to meet them in secluded places, while refusing to tell me what it was they wanted from me.

I have no idea what would have happened, if I had taken them up; maybe just a religious sermon, but I wasn’t taking any chances.

Most of the other contacts, were offers for me to participate in scams, like being an “American face,” of an offshore coding shop.

I suspect many were not exactly illegal, but were probably dodgy as hell. I like to think I have some personal Integrity (which folks around here, consider “quaint,” or just “stupid”).

I never had one single legitimate approach.

Not one.

Am I experiencing deja vu or have I seen this posted elsewhere on HN!

I”ve mentioned it before.

Yep, I learned about it too late x.x

If you did the work and they withheld payment, that's damages. Lawyer up.

well, I'm afraid I might lose more money and time in a lawyer, that what they are withholding :/

You’re probably right. The just option and the satisfying option is probably not the pragmatic option.

Eat the loss, write about it (like here, thank you!) and don’t beat yourself up over it.

Lots of lawyers only collect a percentage of your winnings. And courts often award lawyer costs. Find one of those lawyers. For this the incentives are aligned.

If it’s $500 no lawyer is going to go to court for $250.

I doubt they have a $20,000 upwork balance.

Of course. Gotta do class action. The lawyer sues on behalf of MANY people. Then collects a percentage of that. A lawyer will do this and suggest this if he sees it's possible. If not likely he won't take the case.

I would at least get someone to write a letter. That much isn't expensive and there's always a chance they'll give in at the first sign of legal trouble.

If that doesn't work though, and the amount isn't worth a legal fight, I don't know if there's much you can do, sorry :/

It should be inexpensive to send them a letter from a lawyer. That might be enough to get them to pay you what you are owed.

Depending on where you live, small claims court is an option if the amount owed is within the limits or if the max limit is acceptable for you.

Don’t underestimate the value of a well-worded, signature required snail mail, either. That usually resolves these matters since it usually escalates to the right people.

Does Upwork have a binding arbitration clause? I’d expect them to.

In which case, take them to arbitration! It’s pretty easy for you but costs them money.

Yes, their terms say they use JAMS under California law, which is not totally unreasonable. Read their terms. There's a dispute resolution procedure. First, they get to sit on your claim for 60 days, and then you get to go to arbitration.

Binding arbitration is a process I recently went through, and I think that it's excellent for two parties which are reasonably well positioned to pay for the expense of both the process and the lawyers, as well as wanting an expitied process.

The way the clause is being used to quiet individuals is pretty awful, and while I'm not a lawyer, I suggest that indeed if you have a binding arbitration clause- exercise it.

You can always retract your claim. In fact, arbitration bodies love settlements.

If you don't, then indeed, go after them in small claims court.

Upwork will have two choices: to fight you or not. They'll do the same calculation as you- the cost of the process will be expensive, and likely cost them more in legal fees then is in dispute, so they're likely to pay you to make it go away.

If you think they're going to fight, then withdraw your arbitration claim, but I suggest before even doing that, explain your situation in a letter sent by email (or registered mail) to Upwork:

https://www.upwork.com/about/contact

And explain you'd like to resolve the matter amicably, but if that's not possible, you're prepared to exercise the arbitration clause (or take them to small claims court).

This will alert their legal team, who will now explain to someone else that the matter doesn't make sense to fight, etc.

Once again I Am Not A Lawyer, but I think this is your best bet in getting the money back. But of course if you do this, you won't be working with Upwork anymore.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I would probably, at least, try to send a letter by email and see how things go from there

And they know this, and it is part of their business model. By their calculation, it is easier to have a few false-positives and make a few people angry than build a good system.

You have to have a lot of persistence and a lot of money (or a hungry lawyer who will work for the reward only) to fight like this, in many cases.

Now there might be some small court which has a low filing fee where you can make a case which requires them to respond, and that effort on their part may be deemed not worth the cost of just paying you to go away. So perhaps there's still something you could do practically.

This whole thread seems overrun with fresh sock puppet accounts reciting ChatGPT.

Yeah, but some of the posts are actually positive, so I don't know if this is their initial prompt went wrong, or someone is performing an experiment.

I came back to the post to I see what's going on, and was banned here too. Guess this is not my week. XD

If you’re frustrated with sites like Upwork that are not giving you the customer experience you are hoping for while charging you noticeable commission of the work you’re doing you should check out contra.com for building your independent / freelancer business. Contra does not charge a commission and there is an active Slack community for members to engage with each other and Contra staff.

Full disclosure, I am part of the software engineering team at Contra. I was an independent freelancer for years and was drawn to Contra’s mission of building a better platform for independents to thrive and be successful. Core to that mission is not charging a commission on someone’s hard work.

An interesting fact, nearly everyone in the company has been an independent freelancer. We design and build from a place of experience, understanding and empathy. We also recognize that the needs of independent freelancers evolves so we talk with independents and clients daily to make sure we’re sure continuing to build something they will love to use.

I had an uncomfortable experience with Upwork. I hired a freelancer to work on my project. I noticed some issues with honesty and ethics in his work and communication with me. I got a really bad feeling about him and we ended the contract.

Then I did some research on him and it turns out he is a convicted felon for distributing child ____. His case was covered extensively in international news. I alerted Upwork to this and also showed them proof of his dishonest behavior with me (all communication with him was within the Upwork messaging system). Yet as far as I can see nothing changed and he is still very prominently featured on their platform. (Also he has changed his name now.)

He left me a quite vengeful review & rating (turns out he does this with many of his clients). He was working on a sensitive area of my business. Feels stressful to have a conflict with someone like him. I felt nervous even reporting him.

I think that is way more horrific than my experience

Yep really disturbing...and true story unlike the various spam being posted in this thread.

Shitty. I don't want to use them due to the stories I've heard. They've quite the reputation.

And now they want to do actual placements! It's a shame because I've also found just incredible talent on Upwork and I don't want to not be able to find great people from around the world (for everything from development to jewelry design)

https://www.fastcompany.com/90847879/exclusive-upwork-is-rev...

Yep, the stories are true. I can tell

damn, you should have just sold drugs to Iran paid with fake upwork invoices.

hahahha, maybe I should. Legit work is for dummies T_T

What the hell is happening here with all the bot accounts?

Sounds like Matt Barrie must be running things over there

I'm not a sports guy. Thought you meant "Matt Berry" at first.

what work were you doing / selling via Upwork?

Graphic design, but mostly character designs/concept art illustrations /books for books.

Anybody willing to start an Upwork alternative?

I tried to start one, with the concept being that it would be free and run by participants. It was almost completely ignored. I think people just didn't see many posts on it and decided it wasn't popular or something.

I think part of the issue was just that the website didn't look cool enough. It looked fine to me but I think that people judge things in a very shallow way.

> people just didn't see many posts on it and decided it wasn't popular

Were they wrong? If there were not many posts, it wasn't popular.

Implied by that was "and so everyone should ignore it until it becomes popular". If you can see the implication of that.

I'm very sorry to hear this happened to you. I'm hopeful Upwork will reverse their position or you'll manage to find a better alternative :)

Is that title a Britney Spears pun?

yeah, hahahhaha.

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