Show HN: Skimling - A Platform to Help Kids Improve Their Writing | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Skimling - A Platform to Help Kids Improve Their Writing

skimling.com

44 pointsjjets71844 comments

I just sent an e-mail to you. There might be other people contemplating starting a service like this, so as somebody who also considered it, I'll post the important parts here:

1. Most teachers are willing to help out students. Why would a student pay for your service?

2. An obvious answer to the above is "we'll focus on the students that have teachers that are unwilling to help". From my experience, that's a small market.

3. You also have to consider that the ones who would be interested in this service are ones who really want to have a good essay (I'll come back to this later); the union of the two sets is even smaller. I'm not entirely sure you would be able to churn profits from just this subset.

4. Moving beyond teachers, how will you compete with EssayJudge? They offer an amazing service for nothing. The quality of their service is hard to beat already, and their price impossible to overcome.

5. How will you vet the quality of your "teachers"? If a student isn't happy with the response, will you refund the money? What if your customers are immoral? (I've found that the union of immoral people and students is quite large.) Looking on HN, I see somebody mentioning "chargebacks"; that would indeed be a big problem.

6. What is your target market? Are you aiming for people who want to buy ghostwriters, or are you aiming for people who simply want to get a good grade (from "Doing well on essays is part of doing well in school, and doing well in school leads to a better life!", that seems to be your target audience), or are you aiming for people who really want to improve their writing? It seems that you're focusing on the penultimate, but is that really a good decision? Why wouldn't they just hire a ghostwriter instead?

7. An easy answer is "they're pretty good writers already, they just need that little bit of editing". If so, it looks like you're focusing on the last group. That's where the money lies, but your advertising doesn't seem to be targeted towards them.

This is by no means a complete list of the problems you'll face. You should probably have answers to many of these before starting/going forwards though.

To add to point #1 above, not only are most teachers willing to help out students, but do you really want to be recruiting reviewers who are trying to make $10 a pop?

My gut feeling would be that people reviewing student work because it means something to them would do better work than those who are in it for a token amount.

Thanks for your kind words about http://www.essayjudge.com While it's true that our service is free, it does come at the cost of the publication of one's essay. I had several (<15) requests last semester for private essay reviews (which I did) for a fee (which I turned down). Since I'm reaching a relatively small number of students (<20k/month), there may still be a viable market for OP's service. Whether OP has the price point right, I don't know. I don't see how cost of advertising/teacher pay/etc. doesn't outstrip profit at $12/essay. Perhaps it could work if OP is an seo magician. In any case, I applaud jjets for not just creating another cheater site. I can share some experience and maybe stats with you (jjets) if you are interested; you can email me at bbquigley using google email.

I agree with your opinions, and wish to point out that your are using the word "union" when I think you mean "intersection".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory#Basic_concepts

Doh! You're absolutely right. I'm sorry I got them mixed up, I probably confused a lot of people.

I'll fix It as soon as I get home. Thanks for pointing it out!

Hey, David! I just responded! Looking forward to talking!

I don't think the math works out well for you. The cost is 12 dollars per essay. If I understand stripe's fees, you will pay 65 cents per transaction. You are paying teachers via paypal, I do not know their fees but it will probably be in the ballpark of 50-60 cents to transfer 10 dollars. So 12 -10 - 0.65 - paypal fees = 0.75 to 0.85 profit per transaction. Not sure how automated everything is, but it seems like you will be doing a bit of work for what amounts to a large pack of gum.

Now consider chargebacks. Stripe charges a 15 dollar fee per chargeback. So for each chargeback you lose (15+10+1.25(transaction fees above) = 26.25 or so. I have a feeling you will have a larger than average number of chargebacks due to children borrowing their parent's credit card to get their essay graded.

I assume you are paying the teachers as independent contractors? Are you prepared to issue 1099's to all of them at the end of the year?

And not to sound too harsh but nothing on this site looks professional at all. It reads like it was written by a Nigerian scammer.

EDIT: fixed my math

This is a nice idea. However, I would suggest a better name. Skimling is derived from the word "skim", and "skim over" means to READ SUPERFICIALLY. This is not a good message to prospective students.

You need to think harder about quality control. A simple email-based dispute process is a start, but you need more. How about teacher rating? Teacher credentials, etc.

Improving quality control is probably the most important feature I'd like to add for the next iteration of the product. Each teacher that signs up is approved by me individually; so I go the website of the teacher's current employer and confirm that they are in fact a teacher. A rating system is definitely a critical next step for the product though. I also appreciate your input about the name. I always thought of it as being catchy, but will work on finding one that promotes a better message. Thanks for checking out the site!

Fully support the criticism on the name. But it is a nice idea with quite a lot of potential. Many options to upsell your customer base into tutoring/coaching services etc.

Hi everyone! I'm the sixteen year old founder of Skimling! I'm going to be launching this weekend, but wanted to get feedback from the HN community! Let me know what you think, and feel free to email me at jack@skimling.com if you have any questions!

I like the concept.

I would work on improving the copy, especially because this is a writing-related startup.

Fewer exclamation points and fewer words will help.

Thanks for checking it out! I will definitely make changes to the copy before I launch!

Less exclamation marks!

I will be definitely changing the copy! Thanks for checking it out.

atroche was somewhat humorously referencing your exclamation points in your reply to smalter.

Doing well on essays is part of doing well in school, and doing well in school leads to a better life!

That line is particularly appalling and represents one of the many things that is wrong with our education system. That logical progression is what encourages people to cheat (plagiarism and paying for essays count).

Maybe try something more like "Getting feedback and incorporating it into your thought and work process will help you get it right the next time for your whole life."

What kind of appalling? There's definitely a correlation between education level and lifetime earnings, life satisfaction, etc.

(Yes, many people do fine with low levels of formal education. However, many or most of them are curious, self-educated,and self educating people with good habits.)

Hi! Thanks for your comment! I will definitely think about changing that part of the copy. In no way is that statement meant to encourage cheating or immoral behavior, rather the goal of it is to communicate the value of the service.

I understand that everyone does what they can to get ahead in school and as a parent I know everyone wants their child to succeed, but I can't help but feel that a service like this, especially if it becomes common, will be put kids with limited means at an even greater disadvantage compared to their more well heeled peers. OP: I know this is probably impossible, but any chance of "scholarships" or a pro-bono service for poor kids? In any case if it genuinely achieves greater understanding and isn't just a "pay a teacher to clean up my essay" service, I hope it's a success!

I mentioned EssayJudge above. Basically, it's the same service, but free.

The founder is also the one who goes over the essays. His comments are amazing, and his price can't be beat.

http://essayjudge.com/

"We are trying to provide a servivce to self-motivated learners."

Ruh roh! :p

Great idea.

Copy is dense.

Price seems off. Maybe $12 per semester or something.

How does it compare to the competition?

Thanks for checking it out! I haven't done much research on competing sites, but am sure competitors exist. I may look at changing the price as well. The conundrum that I'm in is the fact that I would like to make the service as inexpensive as possible, while giving value to the teachers as well. The price of each essay is something I have to think about more and talk to customers about more, and I will definitely change the copy before I launch.

You might consider adding a "skilled writer" option for non-teachers to apply. This would allow people like grad students and retired teachers to participate. Just have an "upload resume" field.

Allowing "skilled writers" is something I want to do soon! If you are a skilled writer, you can still sign up! I may send you an email asking for a resume before I verify your account.

Bah! I've had this idea for a long time; I just never took the time to build it.

Anyways, I would love to talk to you about some ideas I think would be helpful. It doesn't seem like you have any contact information on the site (a big problem), nor on your profile. If you want to talk, you can find my contact information in my profile.

I would definitely suggest adding your contact information on the site first. That'd be helpful for anybody who wants more information.

Do teachers not provide feedback if you go to them with your work (during their office hours) prior to the hand-in anymore?

They still do and I actually prefer doing this instead of using a service like Skimling. I try to write for the professor that is grading my paper, some of them have different styles they prefer. Writing to their style usually ensures a good grade, especially if you ask them for feedback and adjust your work accordingly.

Interesting concept. Just a piece of advice that might improve conversions: I know you're using Stripe.js but you still should have an SSL cert on a payment page. And another thing with Stripe.js, don't use name attributes for the credit card input fields. That way they don't get passed through on the form submission.

I bought an SSL cert, and the payment should be encrypted over SSL. I'll check it out later though, and will look at the name attributes on the credit card field. Thanks so much for checking Skimling out!

I think an idea that could really push this over the top would be, for the teacher registration allow anyone with a .edu to register, let them identify their expertise (history, english, poetry etc.). When a student uploads a paper, the student identifies the category of the paper (history, english, poetry etc.) and that'll make it easier to match an editor. You could even let the student see a list of teachers, and select them based on the teachers profile.

Under this system, an important feature, down the line, is a rating system for the teachers to help students find quality editors.

Really cool idea that I definitely see scaling to even more complex project assistance. Maybe you could create a healthy teaching consulting ecosystem? Good luck!

Thanks for your suggestions! The problem with allowing anyone with a .edu email address to register is that there are plenty of people who work for universities that have .edu addresses, but aren't teachers. There is a matching algorithm that matches students who are taking a certain course to teachers that teach courses similar to the one they are taking. The rating system is a very important feature, which I hope to get to work on soon!

Informal poll: is it within a teacher's rights to forbid the use of such a service on their assignments? You know, "I want to see YOUR work, not an underemployed English major's work." If I were a teacher and I thought my wealthier students were turning cash into better essays not thru tutoring (learning) but simply paying someone to spruce it up, I'd do what I could to ban the practice. It's not fair to other students and it makes it difficult or impossible for a teacher to accurately gauge a student's own skills.

Teachers consider the practice you describe (paying someone to spruce up an essay) cheating, but it's not clear that that is the kind of service that OP's site offers. Many teachers also encourage students to get critical feedback on their essays, and so they should. Many professional and academic writers seek out the same kind of feedback. I share your desire for the democratization of online education (that's the point of essayjudge) but there are so many sites that appeal to the baser instincts of struggling or just lazy students (selling pre-written or custom written essays) that I think any site that provides legitimate feedback to students, even if it's for a modest fee, should be welcomed.

I'd say getting feedback from an unbiased teacher is not much different than getting feedback or recommendations from parents or friends. Paying for someone's time that will help you improve your skills and do better in school does not seem unethical to me.

I like the simplicity of the model. $12 seems a little high for input from only one reviewer. Perhaps I'm thinking of shorter papers than you are?

The papers can be of any length for the minimum viable product. For the next iteration, I'd like to adjust the pricing of each essay that is graded based on the length of each essay. As a teacher though, if you don't grade a paper that you've been given within a few days, I can resend it to another teacher.

Love the concept. Getting graded early is so important for students. It shows they really want to know what they are doing right or wrong before they hand in their assignments. After all, that's what learning is all about right? The grade itself is not as important as understanding what you can do better. This might shed some light on grading standards across different teachers as well.

Thank you so much for the positive feedback! I'm going to be very interested to see the trends as to what teachers look for when grading essays.

This looks like a great product, but am I the only one to cringe at such an abuse of the word "platform"? Last I checked, a platform was a combination of hardware and software capable of running other software. Examples of actual platforms include iOS, Java, Windows and the Web.

There's no shame in building an amazing product that isn't a platform!

Thanks for your feedback! I'm going to change the copy tomorrow, and will incorporate your suggestion into it.

Most universities have free tutor services, including for writing. Also, most professors are willing to take a look at your work ahead of time and give you advice.

Given those two options why would a student pay for this service and why would the grad student work for you instead of their university's program?

Hi everyone! I'm in school right now and have to go to lunch, so I will not be able to respond to any additional comments until later. Thanks so much for checking out Skimling, and if I don't respond to your comment right away, I will have responses later tonight!

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