Why aren’t teenagers driving anymore? | Hacker News Reader

Why aren’t teenagers driving anymore?

washingtonpost.com

24 pointsbookofjoe41 comments

One other reason is that there are fewer places to go.

A lot of entertainment (or "entertainment") happens inside: games, doom-scrolling, 200 TV channels (up from a handful in the eightries) and half a dozen video streaming services, and so on. And there's online ordering too. And since the advent of mp3 and streaming, you don't even need to go out to get a record (assuming teens would even care for that). And the public space is deteriorating in many places.

Teenagers used to go to places to meet their pals and find some shit to do in "meatspace", public parks, various hangouts, and back in the day malls. Today? Not so much.

For many there's also probably less hanky panky (which was in the past associated with cars, teenagers often lacking an available house with understanding parents) and more loneliness compared to past decades (according to various reports).

Without a doubt. Malls are dying if not dead. I would bet money there is nearly a 1:1 relationship with the decline in teen driving.

> A lot of entertainment (or "entertainment") happens inside: games, doom-scrolling, and so on. And there's online ordering too. And the public space is deteriorating in many places.

When there's a public space to begin with.

I think modern teens might also have more activities through school (judging by the HN crowd).

Finally, for teens living in dense urban areas (or even suburban) there's always Uber/Lyft. Sure it's expensive, but when you split the fare 2-3 way it's mot that bad.

> For many there's also probably less hanky panky (which was in the past associated with cars

yeah, but is that a cause or an effect? I would think it's more likely an effect of fewer teens having cars instead of the other way around (fewer teens want to do the hanky panky so they don't buy cars).

Not sure, as hanky panky has historically been a great motivator to get a car.

Also the trends regarding hanky panky and relationships don't look that well, for teens with and without cars, so I'd bet it being a cause, not an effect of lack of cars.

Considering that many states now prohibit teens from driving at night, or driving with other teens as passengers without an adult -- or in some states driving without an adult, period -- even with the highest permit level available to them, and sometimes up til age 18... I mean, I don't know or want to know how much of that you got up to in broad daylight with a parent in the car, but I'm going to bet it's close to zero.

Eh, I don't think that's it. California lets you get your full, unlimited license as early as 17 (permit at 15.5, 6 months of permit, license with restrictions at 16, license without any restrictions after a year), and the restrictions before that are hardly "require a chaperone" level. But between my time and my (significantly younger) brother's time, the number of teenagers bothering to go through it all dropped off precipitously.

1999: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-nov-14-me-33510...

> Vicky Vosk got her red Nissan truck, the one she always wanted, on her 16th birthday. It was supposed to be the culmination of a childhood master plan: She would get her driver’s license that day, marking the start of an era of independence from her parents.

> But today her truck sits in the garage, banned from being used in any type of cruising expedition with friends. Because of a new law in California, Vosk has put on hold her long-awaited freedom at the wheel, joining a generation of California teenagers who must pay their dues before obtaining full driving privileges.

> “It’s frustrating. With the old law, everyone was looking forward to the day they turned 16. Now you have to wait so long to get your license,” she said.

...

> * The provisional license stage, which comes after passing a driving test and lasts until the teenager turns 18. During the first six months of this phase, teenagers are allowed to drive on their own, but they can’t transport any passengers younger than 20 without someone 25 or older in the car. In addition, they are not allowed to drive between midnight and 5 a.m. unless accompanied by a driver 25 or older.

GDL programs were hailed as a fatality reduction, but they only delayed them, while increasing the frequency of unlicensed teen drivers (and unlicensed teen driver deaths): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00224...

> IRR analysis found California 16-year-old drivers subject to the GDL experienced a 15% fatality decline (95% CI, 0.70–0.99), while 18 year-old drivers experienced a 15% increase (95% CI, 1.02–1.27). ARIMA analysis found 16 year-old drivers experienced a near-significant 20% fatality decline (p = 0.07), while 18 year-olds experienced a 24% increase (p = 0.01). Unlicensed teenage drivers and older teen drivers driving alone and transporting teenage passengers suffered significant fatality increases.

...

> California's GDL may negatively affect older teenagers and other driver subpopulations and merits reevaluation.

I don't know where they found this misinformation, but the provisional license rules (no nighttime driving, no driving peers) are only for the first 12 months, per the CA DMV [0]

[0] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-education-and-safety/ed...

There's also been a steady increase in the difficulty of obtaining a license over the years. My grandfather started driving at 14; at the time you didn't even need a license to drive. My parents were required to pass a written test, wait two weeks, and then pass a road test. I had to pass a written test, wait 6 months, and then pass a road test. Minors in my state now have to pass a written test, wait 6 months, then pass a road test to get a time-of-day- and passenger-restricted license, and then wait another 6 months for an unrestricted license.

This is why I didn’t get my license until I was an adult. As soon as you turn 18 or 21 in many states, the process becomes dramatically easier.

Just wait until your government introduces mandatory drivers ed classes or a graduated system with exit exams/tests. At least in the class I was forced to take, and pay for, the instructor decided that Russian dash cam compilation videos were a suitable replacement for the overdramaticized PSA videos we were supposed to watch.

I took drivers ed classes and can't imagine not taking them.

However, mine were offered for free through my high school.

Teens can summon an Uber or Lyft with the tap of a finger.

The Washington Post with their fingers on the pulse of working class families here.

Getting the occasional Lyft/Uber is a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a second (or third) car. Even for working class families.

Taking one twice a day, of course, not so much.

There was a such thing as cheap beaters not too long ago…

Still requires insurance, inspections, place to park it, maintenance, etc.

Surely you agree that there are situations in which Lyft/Uber wind up cheaper.

Insurance for teen drivers is quite high, especially for males.

Not really anymore. It used to be you could get a beater for $300-500 that would do pretty well. Now, if a car is running it's worth at least $3000. The insurance costs have skyrocketed because now people are driving rolling house payments and if your teenager crashes into them it will cost 50k+ to replace them. Parts and maintenance are through the roof. Rates at shops are up to $200-300 per hour and parts have nearly doubled.

Cars are just not sustainable anymore. If I were a kid I would prefer an E-bike or a moped/motorcycle like a Honda Supercub. Orders of magnitude cheaper than a beater right now.

More than you might think. Ordering rides is a status symbol in its own way now, cars are very expensive particularly to insure and maintain with fuel. Plus, if you are the driver you cant jam with your friends in the same way. Additionally, anxiety and agorophobia are heightened with the younger gen given their raised environment, so it makes sense.

Raised environment?

Parents drop off and pick up kids everywhere, all events are carefully planned and supervised by adults.

When I was a kid...(here we go)...I was out everywhere on my own all day starting at 4-years-old - we would go out and around the close neighborhood. Year by year, the horizons keep espending and getting that first bike at 6-years-old - went everywhere. And by 8-year-old, we were for sure out every day, especially in the summer, just run out the front door, be gone all day, not tell parents what you were doing or going. If you stayed around the house, they would yell at you go get the hell out of the house.

It's not like that any more, or so I hear.

So, kids are raised in an environment where they have everything done for them, under constant supervision and catering to them, not allowing them to do anything on their own.

This article is missing a discussion over the rise in car, fuel, and insurance prices during the same time period that teen driving fell.

That and the fact the average miles driven dropped nationally during the early pandemic, and legally mandated behind-the-wheel courses stopped right when these 18 year olds should have been getting their licenses.

In California teens aren't allowed to drive the way I was able to when I was a teen. Teens can't drive around other teens, and I don't think they can drive at night without an adult. This is for safety, and when I think back about my teen years it makes sense.

Also, maybe for some of the same reasons, they take the driving test much more seriously then when I was a kid. If you could park the car and stay in a lane, congratulations. Now it seems like they really fail you for not knowing how many feet something can hang off your tail, etc. It's a lot more pressure-- and probably a lot more work for the DMV.

(edited)

They can't drive at night or other teens for the first year they have their license. If they start early, they still have a full, unlimited license at 17.

I think the decline in interest is something else, because just between me and my several years younger brother's times the interest amongst teen boys driving dropped off significantly, despite the same restrictions applying.

Going places sucks. It costs money and takes time to get everyone there let alone coordinate. Locking yourself in your room works great to get away from parents and lurking on discord is easier than meeting up.

Back when I worked at an office I used to commute by bicycle on a route that took me past a high school.

Often I was the only one on a bicycle, most of the actual students were all being dropped off. Made me a bit sad, I had fond memories of congregating at the bike sheds before and after school.

  > lurking on discord is easier than meeting up

Those two things aren't the same, and helps explain why young people are so miserable. We're meant to be social, you know, in real life.

Used cars are relatively more expensive than in the 90s and 2000s. Gone are the days of buying the nice old lady from down the street's Oldsmobile for a good price. Gas is crazy expensive too compared to the minimum wage a teenager would be making now. Then there's the question of insurance for young drivers...

Eh, most teens are on their parents' insurance, and I observed this phenomena happening in an area affluent enough that you'd just inherit a parents' car when they wanted a new one (and likely used your getting a license as an excuse). Regardless, teens in my younger brother's years just aren't interested.

> Parents can monitor a child’s every move through an app.

I cannot imagine anything that would be more likely to train an entire generation to simply leave their phone at home.

https://archive.ph/4B7D1

Ironically I drove the most when I was in high school. I had a car for much of undergrad but didn't use it all that much. Then in grad school it sat unused and was expensive so I got rid of it. 12 years later, I still don't have one and only occasionally drive rentals...

They didn't interview a single teen in this article? Every single perspective is that of the parents or a psychologist.

Car company marketing isn’t working anymore?

Cars just cost too much period, because now every car has to have touch screen entertainment systems, electric door latch systems, backup cameras (this is required by law), and corollas probably have an option for heated leather seats. Oh, and then your insurance is based on the all the people around you buying these cars around you and getting them into accidents, and fender benders cost 6-8k to fix nowadays.

I was a teenager until 30 years ago and I still don't know how to drive.

From the article: « “Like, when we’re out of tomatoes,” Johnson says, and laughs, “I want to be able to say, ‘Hey, I need tomatoes. Go to the store and get a tomato.’” »

This sounds like a symptom of either rural living, or poor urban planning. I've never lived more than a 10 minute bike ride away from ... well ... anything I might need on short notice.

>This sounds like a symptom of either rural living, or poor urban planning.

Living in a well planned urban area in the united states is too expensive for most people.

E-bikes are very popular with teens and cost almost nothing to ride. The downside is many youthful riders have no concept of traffic rules...

Oh my god, that "Life360" app sounds absolutely horrific, Orwellian. I never would have tolerated it as a teenager. For us back in the days before smartphones, cars meant freedom.

Of course, we were massively irresponsible with that freedom. But you have to be. How can kids learn about life if they never live it? They'll just end up sheltered, ignorant, unprepared for adulthood and independence.

Not mentioned, or glossed over, in this story in favor of psychologists saying teens are scared:

- gas prices

- changes to license and permit laws for minors since 2000,[1] particularly the widespread introduction of graduated driver licensing programs that mean getting a license before age 18 doesn't grant the independence that it once did[2]

- teen employment levels, even in recovery from steep decades-long lows, remain well below those of 25 years ago[3][4]

- recent history; the decline was already steep in 2013, and 37% of a cohort of teens said they simply didn't have enough time to prioritize learning how to drive[5]

- context of almost all age groups also declining in license attainment rates over the same period[5]

- US auto manufacturers eliminating lower-priced models by converting everything to more expensive crossovers, SUVs, and trucks, with more-expensive EVs replacing compacts; even though a plurality of GenZers (36%) buying used vehicles in 2018 bought either compact or midsize cars, "Detroit is betting that even if young people wait longer to buy a car, they eventually will when finances improve and they start families. And then, they’ll buy an SUV or truck"[6]

- preparing for student loan debt is a higher priority to teens and their families even before they incur any of it; a teen who bought a used car for $2,500 says "it was a relief to avoid car payments and debt"[6]

- licenses require more formal training than ever, and the training costs hundreds or thousands of dollars when it used to be free, because public school drivers' ed programs were eliminated as states slashed education budgets alongside the introduction of GDL programs, leaving only expensive private classes[6]

- increased urbanization has given more teens better access to walkable, bikable, transit-accessible, and rideshare-accessible neighborhoods[6]

1: https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2015/02/oregon_teen_dri...

2: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00224...

3: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/21/after-dropp...

4: PDF: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/youth.pdf

5: https://news.umich.edu/percentage-of-teen-drivers-continues-...

6: https://archive.ph/20200101222010/https://www.wsj.com/articl...

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