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Comment by goosedragons | Hacker News Reader

T480 weighs 3.6lb vs. 3.5 for a 14" M1. I'm surprised you noticed.

MBP doesn't have a trackpoint. Still can't run Linux as well, lacks USB A so still requires constant dongles despite improved port selection.

I moved from a 2018 15" MBP to a P14s Gen 2 AMD. The speakers, screen, trackpad are worse. But I don't care. I'm not stuck using a horrible OS with miniscule amounts of storage to keep the price down. The machine doesn't go from frigid to boiling in 3 minutes either. I can't imagine I'd be happier with a 14" MBP, I just don't care enough about saving 5 minutes to put up with macOS and locked down hardware.

The only thing I miss from the 2018 MBP is the ability to charge from the left or right side.

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Using still an ThinkPad X220 here with Archlinux. There two important things in any laptop, the built-in keyboard and the built-in screen. This is the I/O-Interface! Customers often do the mistake and doesn't invest in the best available screen. You cannot make this mistake with Apple, because they offer no options for the screen. Regarding keyboards, selecting a ThinkPad is always safe.

I had to buy the X220 from a shop, not directly from Lenovo:

    * TN-Panel -> IPS-Panel
    * ISO-Keyboard -> ANSI-Keyboard
    * Bluetooth 3.0 -> Bluetooth 4.0 LE

All with original replacement parts. I bought it because I wanted to remain the the seven row keyboard, which provides better layout/grouping. The X220 will reach it 10th year in next winter. The keyboard provides excellent tactile feedback and concave keys. Bonus, TrackPoint. The TrackPad is superfluous for me. The frame is made of polycarbonate (feels nice on skin contact) and reinforced with magnesium.

Apples keyboard doesn't provide a good feedback on press and the keys have no shape guiding the fingers. They make superiors chips through TSMC, especially the M1/M2 without any PRO/MAX which allows passive cooling. But I don't want use MacOS. And while aluminium is a nice material for cars, bikes and planes it doesn't feel good with skin contact. We don't use keyboards or mice with aluminium because it doesn't feel well. I know, the aluminium frame makes it shiny and sturdy and allows to glue in stuff (cheap) but I don't like that. I even don't like it with my smartphone.

PS: Battery replacement is a bless. Yes, built-in batteries allow for more sturdy frames but it is bad in long term. It would be enough the provide replacement batteries with a low-weight cage and screws instead of glue.

> PS: Battery replacement is a bless. Yes, built-in batteries allow for more sturdy frames but it is bad in long term. It would be enough the provide replacement batteries with a low-weight cage and screws instead of glue.

I agree with this. That said, an all-in battery replacement by Apple is $199. Once every 3 years isn't going to break the bank vs. like $50 for an X220 battery.

Especially when an X220 gets like 7h of juice vs 17-22h for an M1/2 MacBook Pro.

Yep. We should mention here improvements within the last decade? The X13 Gen3 (AMD) also should allow run theoretically 17 hours[1]. I think a peak was reached with the MacBook (Polycarbonate Body) or T430s which allowed to replace the battery at the device bottom with a coin, easy maintenance and sturdy frame. And good balance because the weight counteracted the open display.

With "peak" I mean the situation that a thing reached a point where it was actually good and then get impaired. Sometimes because another feature was added but didn't fit. Or just for the sake of change. The seven vs. six row keyboard layout is such a thing. The 16:9 screens where everyone immediately wanted the 16:10 back (happening right now). The MiniSD-Slots replacing the SD-Slots...

[1] https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X...

How does one achieve 17 hours of battery life with an X13 Gen3 AMD? I can manage maybe 6.

Do you have a discrete GPU? Disable it. Run TLP and powertop to see what uses too much power and to adjust tweakables.

I do not have a discrete GPU, have run TLP and Powertop and have adjusted the tweakables. Maybe it's my 1440p display.

If you use zenmonitor, what is the package power on a typical workload? It should be 2-3W maximum normally. If it's too high, it's a too common case of manufacturers setting insane tweakables, and can be remediated using amdctl/ryzenadj/zenstates (or in some BIOSes using the PBO2 setting). Otherwise, it can sometimes be a bad SSD using a lot of power.

I'll try those out, thank you for the tips.

The big problem with newer AMD ThinkPads from what I've heard is use of some second-rate (mostly Realtek) components in places, which in comparison to those used on Intel models don't perform as well and are more likely to cause trouble under Linux.

I just swapped the realtek wifi of my P14s amd gen 2 with Intel ax210. Cost was around 10€.

I think since around one year ago upstream kernels do support the realtek wifi card properly.

Actually they use four different. You can swap them yourself (15 - 20 EUR):

    * Qualcomm (Atheros) -> GOOD (or even best?)
    * Intel              -> GOOD
    * Realtek            -> It works okay for average users
    * MediaTek           -> Bad or lack of reputation

The X13 is currently shipped with Qualcomm. Older T14 seem to use mostly Intel. On a P14 Lenovo we got a MediaTek (no reliable after Resume from Suspend) replaced by Realtek.

I would be happy if AMD and Qualcomm team up together again. The questionable ARM-Deal with Microsoft also didn't worked out well for Qualcomm.

> Once every 3 years isn't going to break the bank vs. like $50 for an X220 battery.

My Apple laptops haven't gotten frustratingly-low battery life—but, hell, still better than any PC laptop I've ever owned at purchase, even when "degraded"—until ~5 years, historically. Including the Intel ones. IDK what Apple does with their batteries (extra, "stealth" capacity? Just way, way higher-quality batteries than any other laptop or phone manufacturer I've ever used?) but they hold up better than any others I've seen. I expect the Silicon devices will fare even better, having truly stupid-long initial battery life (people who are like "LOL who the hell needs 14 hour battery life?"—this is why, if you want 8 hours of battery life after owning the device for five years; it's not just some niche oddball thing, it's about device longevity, in addition to being handy surprisingly-often in the meantime)

I think it's the "way higher quality battery". There are a lot of very low-quality non-OEM batteries, I've rarely had those last more than 6 months and they were wildly unsatisfactory even then. I managed to source a NOS OEM thinkpad battery off ebay and that was significantly higher quality than the usual junk but still, I think Apple is picky about batteries.

While on the whole I'm not overly fond of the non-serviceable battery model on laptops, I do believe Apple when they say they lose money on their repair service as a whole. I just had my iphone 8+ battery replaced after 4 years (yeah it was starting to get real bad lol), I made a point of having it done at the apple store knowing that 4-year-old glue might not want to let loose, it ended up having a different problem and they ended up replacing the whole phone with a refurb, for the $49 cost of the battery repair. Sold, absolutely came out ahead on that, was starting to get glitchy anyway and it was a refurb phone in the first place, honestly was crossing my fingers they'd break it anyway.

If you have an expensive MBP I think it'd be a hard sell to not take applecare, if you end up needing even 1 display replaced you come out ahead. That's the model, Apple really wants you on Applecare and they lose money doing it, it's all part of the package deal of ownership (which of course is not offered to secondhand owners, that's where they make the money).

It's more of a mixed bag on the cheaper models... display replacement still has a decent service charge plus the applecare fee and it's not all that worth it on a say $700 laptop. You're gonna have paid a total of like $500 anyway if you need to use it, at some point the laptop is just totaled and you get a new one. Also probably not worth it on desktops (with the possible exception of imac). But on a $3000 macbook pro? Yeah I'd do it there for sure.

The Apple Silicon models will probably also benefit from being the first(?) ones to run their entire life with Apple's new optimized charging behavior. E.g. my laptop spends most of its life plugged in running a display, and so it has its battery charging kept on hold and is occasionally charged up to ~80%. I can only assume this'll help the battery life in the long term...

Check out the application "aldente" for a tool that lets you manage this behavior directly... it can stop charging at a specific battery level regardless of what "optimized charging" wants to do, it allows "sailing" mode where it won't start recharging until the battery is discharged to a specific level, and it allows halting charging when the battery is above a certain temperature.

It does what it says on the tin in terms of system behavior at least, no idea how much it will actually help in terms of battery life.

This is not an Apple-specific feature, though. Windows 11 has a similar mode on Thinkpads, although I don't recall if it's something Lenovo-specific or it works everywhere.

TLP on Linux or directly:

/sys/class/power_supply/BAT0 #

     ...
     charge_behaviour # [auto] inhibit-charge force-discharge
     charge_control_end_threshold
     charge_control_start_threshold
     charge_start_threshold
     charge_stop_threshold
     ...

Too much options for normal users. Actually one button in UI battery panel "[PRESERVE CAPACITY] or FULL CHARGE" would be optimal.

Also still using a X220 (X230 motherboard swapped) with Debian and a T430s (with 1080p swap) with Windows.

Agreed that the X220 form and function is excellent. The 7-row keyboard is amazing. The IPS screen is serviceable. The swappable 9-cell batteries give around 10 hours of battery life each. The i7-3520M is noticeably faster than the i5-8250U in my surface pro 6, even though benchmarks suggest it shouldn't be.

Just tried a new T14. The keyboard is decent. I haven't found any laptops with a keyboard as good as the 7-row.

> Also still using a X220 (X230 motherboard swapped)

Is there any advantage to swapping the X230 motherboard into an X220 chassis vs. putting the X220 keyboard on an X230?

I upgraded to an X230 from an X220 for Vulkan support, but have swapping in the X220 keyboard on my todo list. Curious if there's a good reason to go the other way.

I have a T14g2, and while the keyboard is indeed reasonable, it is a far cry from keyboards TPS used to have, and the front chassis wedge is so sharp it gave me long lasting and very painful CTS-like symptoms after a single long day of coding on a train (I’ve since fixed that issue by padding the corners with Sugru). The camera is also extremely poor, both in terms of image resolution and light sensitivity.

I wanted to like the x220s I found and then upgraded (well only the best one). I think the keyboard is great. I stuck an IPS screen into it (no nitrocaster).

The good one ended up having the power port die on me and while struggling to pull the thing a part to get to it (of course it is possible, but it's tested my patience :) ) the top case basically crumbled apart. I swapped the good parts to the other one, but it sits idle now. I just don't feel like I can be productive with a small 768 screen. I can't avoid the fact 1080 is my minimum.

I think my T430s is really good (with 1080 adapter and the keyboard is fantastic), but it can end up having the same issues with the top case with small cracks in the top case.

The TP I was able to keep from my last job has none of the problems. It is a T470p. Maybe there was some effort into material quality over the years, but it survived a really hard fall with some minor damage on the top and bottom case. It also is much easier to service :) It's the 470 that's the better overall one I have had, with the 430 being the one with the better keyboard.

> “And while aluminium is a nice material for cars, bikes and planes it doesn't feel good with skin contact. We don't use keyboards or mice with aluminium because it doesn't feel well.”

Apple does make (desktop) keyboards and trackpads with aluminium. Not to mention phones, remote controls, and the Apple Watch. No complaints here!

> MBP doesn't have a trackpoint. Still can't run Linux as well, lacks USB A so still requires constant dongles despite improved port selection.

I've never wanted a nipple mouse, but to each their own and I know some people love them. What I have wanted is a giant 6" diagonal multi-touch trackpad.

Linux is very much a non-goal for me, and if I want to, I can always SSH into a remote instance or run a VM.

I don't miss type A at all, and the 14/16" M1/2s have a much broader variety of ports which largely solves the dongle issue. [edit] the only place I have a lot of Type A devices I also have a thunderbolt dock with gigabit ethernet too.

> The machine doesn't go from frigid to boiling in 3 minutes either.

That's a feature of the Intel CPU on the 2018 15" MBP. You will not find the same on an M1/2. In fact I'm not sure it even warms up?

> You will not find the same on an M1/2. In fact I'm not sure it even warms up?

My M2 does quite regularly with only Chrome, Slack, VS Code and a few docker containers running.

I hate that sub downvotes facts that they don't like

You’re confusing facts with anecdotal evidence.

I know from extensive debugging of this issue that docker is the problem. You basically can't run docker (as of 6 months ago...I hope this will eventually be false) on an M1/M2 without causing significant heating and battery drain. Since this is the fault of the OS, maybe Asahi will eventually be the solution.

Yes, same conclusion.

I wonder if people using it for writing code are running docker at all, you read so many comments on HN of how the battery life is incredible (on any thread about comparisons between any Mac and any other laptop) while in my experience a full charge Macbook Air M2 lasts about 6 hours with Docker running instead of the usual 15 it lasts when its off.

I use my company-provided M1 Pro MBP for mobile dev (Xcode, Android Studio) and battery life and heat are both great for that use case. Very rarely run Docker, but when I have it's seemed more resource hungry than anything else running.

Can't you run Docker on a remote host? I always have a 64GB memory EC2 instance near if required.

Run arm64 ubuntu in a VM and use arm64 images and it should be very fine?

I have a 256GB (with easy/cheap room for 768gb) 28c haswell-e server sitting in my basement though too. Costs like 1/3 of a macbook pro if it comes down to it.

I write code full time. I run Docker as little as possible, preferring to run everything “natively”. It’s so much simpler than figuring out how to get whatever shitty webstack working with reloading etc. It’s faster. Battery life is better. There’s no downside in my experience as macOS is a good enough *nix that almost everything Just Works™.

The only time I run Docker is to test an image locally, which is in general only to debug my Dockerfile.

I switched to using Podman when the licensing terms came out and it was clear we weren’t going to be able to get a procurement through. The move was generally painless and the battery life is great - no noticeable impact unless I’m actually hammering the CPU in a container.

Are you running arm64 or amd64 images? I switched from docker to podman, mostly due to other issues (e.g., the weirdness with the Docker VM seemingly growing infinitely in size and refusing to trim automaticity), but running arm-native containers has never really made my battery life significantly worse.

The 12+ hours, though, I’m not sure how people are getting that consistently. I feel like VS Code and some LSPs alone make that impossible for me.

I can’t imagine if I were doing some web dev stuff and needed Chrome installed of Safari too.

You could also launch a Linux VM and run your docker containers in there. That ought to work better than just running docker in Mac OS and letting it manage VM instances on its own.

You shouldn't pay more money for a top-shelf laptop, then need to do this.

Can confirm.

By the time you have a giant 6" trackpad, then a touchscreen just absolutely makes more sense, but oh, yeah, right, Apple insists on being a decade+ behind the times on laptop hardware features while insisting they're better.

It does not. Touching the screen requires moving your hand even further away from the keyboard and requires getting your screen all smudged up. I abhor touch screen laptops. They make much more sense in convertible laptops with pen input.

I actually disagree. It's all about ergonomics. Holding your hand/wrist up to the screen all day is unnatural and tiring - not to mention smudgey and annoying. The large trackpad being planar with the keyboard allows you to use without physical stress for extended periods of time.

Their position is if you want to fing on something, fing on an iPad.

If you want to type, point and gesture, get a MacBook.

I'm very ok with that and personally satisfied that Apple didn't jump on that bandwagon.

moving my fingers on a trackpad is way better than stabbing my meat stick on a screen in terms of accuracy and personal energy use

> T480 weighs 3.6lb vs. 3.5 for a 14" M1. I'm surprised you noticed.

Without battery.

The battery itself weights 7oz, which goes up to 13oz with the extended battery (which the parent said he bought)

Is the trackpoint really that important when you have a trackpad which doesn't suck with associated drivers and software which doesn't suck? I've never been using a Mac trackpad and felt the need for something trackpoint-like.

I understand the desire for a trackpoint on laptops with non-Apple trackpads though.

Yes, because I have to move my hand off the keyboard to use the trackpad.

Fair. But don't you move your hand off the keyboard to use a mouse when using a desktop PC? Or do you have a trackpoint on your keyboard there too?

I avoid keyboards without trackpoint.

And for the rare case where I have to do something which requires a lot of mouse pointer motion (e.g. CAD modeling or reading schematics) I prefer a real mouse over a trackpad.

Yes? You don't need to move from the keyboard at all, you get physical buttons too. Your wrist is never misinterpreted as a mouse movement either.

It's just better unless your workflow heavily involves the use of 3+ finger gestures. Which I don't personally care about but seems like a necessity to not go insane on macOS.

> "Your wrist is never misinterpreted as a mouse movement either."

This just doesn't happen on Mac trackpads: they have pretty sophisticated and effective palm rejection.

Just spent about 30 seconds there testing this on my m2. Couldn't convince it to move the cursor with anything below the knuckles.

That's definitely not the case in my experience. Has this improved in the recent past?

Nope. It definitely happened to me on my MBP because of the giant trackpad.

As someone with slightly larger than average hands - Yes it does, it happens all the time on both of mine.

I think it depends on your style. I have problems with mine, because I typically type with only my fingertips touching anything. So if my palm hits the touchpad, it registers as a mouse movement. The only solution I've found that works pretty well for me is to rest my palms on the touchpad when I type, which seems to give it a better clue. But this isn't how I type on any other keyboard, so I keep forgetting.

Not sure if that's the case anymore. Had various Apple laptops in the last 15 years and palm rejection worked great. Not so with the 16in M1 MBP. It has trouble with it especially when I wear sleeves. The trackpad might be just a bit too large.

I have small hands and still have trouble with this, to the point where I almost always have an external keyboard/trackpad with me.

Yes, it does. At least to me.

You still need to shift your hand position. One of you hands leaves the home row, or at least that's how I always used the track point (and I started using them in the 90s). Is it as much of a shift as a trackpad? No, of course not. Is it a panacea of speed because your hands don't have to move as much? Not at all. Keyboard shortcuts are still much faster.

You like them or you don't. There's no real need to explain about it anymore than that. Honestly, on my Thinkpads, I used the trackpad just as much as the point. Maybe I'm just not very good at it, but it takes some skill to use the point. The physical click buttons are nice though.

I also don't use 3 finger shortcuts on my Mac either, so maybe I'm just crazy.

>Is the trackpoint really that important

Yes. The arguments for it are the exact same ones Vim evangelists make (ergonomics, speed), but having the TrackPoint there applies those advantages to every other program on the system as opposed to just the one.

I’ve had thinkpads for years, first a T420 and now an X1C (and I use vim a lot) and I can’t seem to integrate the track point into my workflow.

Either it’s too fast and it overshoots, or it’s too slow and it distracts from what you’re trying to actually do.

How long did it take you to become proficient with it to the point you prefer it over a mouse / trackpad?

About 5-minutes into first trying a ThinkPad ever

The trick is to use the stick as a Force sensor, instead of treating it like a capacitive Position stick on console controllers. In other words, you use your skin to "pull" the stick transversely so that the shearing force maximizes the feedback to your fingertip's cutaneous nerves.

The common mistake for those who gave up after 5 seconds of trying is attempting to "push" against the stick which is very difficult to do because there is barely any height to the nub, and in order to reverse directions you'd then need to shift your fingertip to get leverage on the opposite side of the dome.

When you instead use the shearing technique, it enables considerable finesse over not just the magnitude but also rapid modulation of the direction you are applying it in, effectively using the skin itself as both a sensor and a transducer.

Also remember to turn off the operating system's mouse acceleration, and turn up the driver's pressure sensitivity to max.

Thanks for the detailed explanation - you've inspired me to give it another shot.

Yeah, I tried repeatedly with an IBM laptop years ago to get used to the nub, and couldn't get accurate with it without dropping to like 1/20th my mouse-using speed. Even the shit-tastic trackpad was way, way better. But of course I just did what a lot of PC laptop owners do and ended up carting a mouse everywhere (I'd have to have the power brick anyway, and once you're in "I'll need a bag" territory you may as well toss the mouse in)

Are you touch typing? I am sincerely curious. For me, because I am touch typing, the trackpoint was a big advantage over the trackpad - I don't have to lift the hands from the keyboard. This is how I got used to the trackpoint.

Yes, and depending on preference, it's better. With a properly working trackpoint, you barely need to move your hand or fingers at all. Complete screen navigation from slight finger pressure. No swipes, no wrist movement, no carpal tunnel, no RTS. The single best control system ever invented, once you learn to stop trying to use it like a mouse or trackpad. Trackpoint combined with touchscreen is the best.

The MBP running Linux in a VM will probably give you the T480 experience - it will be relatively slow (but still fast enough) and use a lot more battery.

I can tell you now that 2022 was the year of Linux on the desktop with Apple+Parallels! :)

I have a mini datacenter on my desk right now with 5 Debian machines running, 1 Windows 10, 1 OpenBSD machine as gateway for the others. No lag.

Just now I fired up YouTube on 3 of these Debian machines in Firefox as well as one in the Windows 10 VM. All running full screen 1080p videos (a wide second display with 3 VM's, the main display showing the Windows VM). No lag.

Also, I have _never_ heard the fan on this thing. Unsure if it has one! :)

The CPU/GPU combo is of course great, but it's the 400GB/s memory bandwidth that makes all the difference I think.

([edit] oh, and the battery life is nuts.)

Would you mind sharing your machine spec please? Thanks!

Sure; M1 Max, 64GB RAM running Ventura 13.2.1 (and Parallels Pro 18).

like sibling, I'd be interested in the specs. Thanks!

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