Hacker News Reader

Comment by philliphaydon | Hacker News Reader

Living in Singapore for 10 years I talked to quite a few people from India living in Singapore.

It seems that it’s an older generation thing. The younger ones don’t care about caste at all but if their parents ask about their friends they will lie, because their parents care a lot about caste.

And while caste is illegal in India. It’s such a big country it’s difficult to enforce. So it’s still rampant outside of the big cities.

I used to donate to a charity which builds wells in India for small villages to ensure they have safe clean drinking water. They supply the materials but everyone in the village must contribute to building it and everyone must have access regardless of caste. If the village does not agree they won’t help.

I can’t remember what the charity was called :(

View on HN

One of the biggest ways in which caste discrimination is propagated is through denialism. That helps the quell the resistance against it. Caste discrimination is still alive among younger generation and in cities. Here we are - discussing caste in US cities - which makes no sense if it didn't exist in the above mentioned circles in a large way.

Now way its an old generation thing? I've seen "gang wars" among young adults of different castes in reputed Indian universities, located in cities. I have first hand experience with people who chose friends based on caste. And caste is not illegal in India discrimination is, but politicians here are mostly caste mongerers and win elections.

reputed ? sure they're?

I can give you the names, and they will feature in the top 50.

I know of six universities where what the GP said is true and all six of them made it here: https://www.nirfindia.org/2022/UniversityRanking.html

> And caste is not illegal in India discrimination is

The caste system was outlawed ages ago. It very much is illegal.

How then do you have caste based matrimony sites?

But they have their own version of Affirmative Action, notably quotas for universities and government jobs, and a very common form of caste discrimination by upper-caste Indians in the US is to claim a lower-caste graduate from a prestigious university like IIT isn’t a genuine one because he was a “diversity admission”.

IIT has a common entrance exam and admissions are offered solely on your performance in that exam. If you see someone getting in with a very low score compared to the rest of the class, they will be rightfully branded as "diversity admission". It is no wonder that 60% of dropouts at 7 IITs are from reserved categories: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/parliament-proceeding...

We literally select our caste in govt forms,I literally had to get a caste certificate to prove for my college admission.Im not sure you know what you are talking about. Caste based discrimination is illegal not caste, we have a huge problem due to reservation quotas because govt still segregates people based on caste and tries to uplift them, but in turn sometimes it misfires.

> The caste system was outlawed ages ago. It very much is illegal.

What exactly do you think is outlawed?

"Article 17 of Indian Constitution says: Untouchability” is abolished and its practice in any form is forbidden. The enforcement of any disability arising out of “Untouchability” shall be an offence punishable in accordance with law." - https://cjp.org.in/caste-discrimination-and-related-laws-in-...

There is more to the story and that's a good read, but in practice you can see cast discrimination still a lot in India, as I figured out recently when I have been a few weeks in the country.

The GP I was responding to said:

> The caste system was outlawed ages ago. It very much is illegal.

As you'll note, the actual prohibition is on a narrow class of discrimination. That is what I was trying to emphasize. I live in India and am very much aware of the discrimination that still exists.

If you cannot discriminate on class, the purpose of class is abolished. After the british left, the caste system was outlawed. The constitution was written later to rule out class based discrimination.

I never said it wasn't still practiced. Just that its much more observed outside of the big cities than in it.

Untouchable is not the only caste. You have a category error.

What are you replying to?

You're saying the caste system was banned - it wasn't. The ancient concept of being untouchable was banned after the British left, not the much more recent caste system, which survives to this day.

What others have been trying to explain to you is that only caste-based discrimination was banned, not the caste system itself.

Because they go on to say that the ban hasn't been very effective, you seem to miss that first point and start arguing that you weren't saying discrimination doesn't exist, which isn't addressing the intention behind what they were saying.

It was outlawed, and later written into the constitution.

I never said the caste system was abolished or doesn't exist. And I never mentioned 'untouchables'. It seems those replying and refuting anything I say are in favor of the caste system and want to keep it, which is utterly horrible.

If you cannot discriminate against caste, the caste serves no purpose, because you're effectively saying people are equal. But writing anti descrimination laws into the constitution obviously doesn't help society move away from it, especially when its so engrained into elders, or people who live outside the big cities.

> I never said the caste system was abolished

You literally said:

> The caste system was outlawed ages ago.

> It seems those replying and refuting anything I say are in favor of the caste system and want to keep it

This is one hell of a take. How the fuck do you fix something if you keep pretending it's already fixed.

> If you cannot discriminate against caste,

There is no law criminalizing discrimination. People discriminate and face discrimination every single day.

> people who live outside the big cities.

I've lived in the third and fourth largest cities in India and seen discrimination with my eyes.

> You literally said:

In my last comment I said exactly that. Being outlawed does not mean it’s abolished. Something can be illegal and people still do it. People still commit murder and that’s been outlawed for like ever. So it can’t have been abolished if it still exists.

> How the fuck do you fix something if you keep pretending it's already fixed.

At no point did I say it’s a solved problem. My very first comment I said it happens outside the big cities more than the big cities. I never said it doesn’t happen.

You know. I heard a saying once: “people outside America know more about America than Americans know about America” it seems like the same is true here.

How would you make a caste if you are not even in that profession. Btw this book should help you with the history

Check this out! https://a.co/d/b55ZoJ9

Here is a book for you that you can read and not just go with what other people say

Check this out! https://a.co/d/b55ZoJ9

You've got it wrong entirely. Just because you dissolve discrimination, it doesn't magically kill segregation. Castes were created way back when they were used to classify people based on the work they do, and young ones continued in the steps of their older generations in their job so it was a mere classification of their family's work. Then it started going ugly when people in respectable jobs wanted to protect themselves from "outsiders" taking their jobs away. But it just doesn't make sense anymore. No one is following their elders' job anymore. The caste system itself must be outlawed even to mention it. As long as you still try to identify someone based on their caste, you are encouraging segregation. Govt forms must not include an outdated classification. I shouldn't show proof of my caste to get a college admission. Marriages must not made based on it. I kid you not, I was personally rejected from marriage with the woman I was in a relationship based on my caste.banning Discrimination did snt do shit.

You state I have it wrong then tell me proceed to agree with me. I never said that because it’s outlawed it’s no longer practiced. I’m fully aware it’s still practiced. And while it’s lesser in big cities. And much more wide spread outside. It doesn’t change the fact it still exists and is a stupid outdated system.

After the British came the caste system got worse. They used the caste system in their government and caused a lot of people to get upset.

We could literally blame all of India’s current caste issues on the British.

The government should be demolishing the caste system entirely based on the little I know from the people I’ve spoken to. It causes more harm than good. But it doesn’t change the fact that it is outlawed.

Read this book about the history first. Don't just make things up. Any person can hate anyone..

https://a.co/d/b55ZoJ9

Lol a blanket claim of “don’t make things up” despite what I said being based on the history? Lol ok

Just one look at any Indian dating site will dispel this notion. They have elaborate caste and subcaste categories to filter your partners by.

How can reservation work without knowing the caste? You also fill it in every damned form (recently was called back to daughters school to fill it when I just left it as Hindu)

"old generation" probably means generations of immigrants. 1.5th and 2nd generation immigrants are much different from native Indians, they are basically raised outside India and have non-Indian friends.

There's no such thing as "an older generation thing" when it comes to discrimination. The haves are innately aware and will fight to keep what they have versus the have-nots. We've got plenty of other examples all across Western society and culture, from Britain's royal family to right-wingers actively fighting against the teaching of history in the US.

> right-wingers actively fighting against the teaching of history in the US

I don't think this is a fair characterisation. I have never heard of anyone wanting to stop this. If you mean CRT, that is something different, or at least the versions of it that are causing pushback are different.

There’s a well publicized fight over AP Black History going on right now in Florida.

More broadly, books like Lies my Teacher Told Me have pointed to the long history of numerous failings of our history curriculum.

For sure - I think that is a tricky one, as I don't feel I can trust anyone's take on it. I do see some of the activism training vs genuine historical education as being extremely disadvantageous, but also of course that black history needs to be taught well as a significant part of American history.

I would argue that the existing state wasn't "genuine historical education": I made it all the way through high school without ever being taught the state I was educated in had outright banned Black residents in its constitution.

My high school had our class go across the river multiple times to visit the same plantation house. They would show how pretty the property was, and give a history of the people who owned the property and how important they were.

We never got to be anywhere near the slave quarters, and it was never once mentioned that dozens of black people were brutally slaughtered there with their heads put on pikes at the entrance.

It's absolutely a fair characterization.

There has never in the history of the United States been a curriculum containing CRT at the K-12 level because children don't have the background and capacity to understand it.

And by bringing it up at all, you're proving that you don't either.

Its very much alive, though it has changed a lot. https://www.epw.in/journal/2012/13/special-articles/peculiar...

Older generations from the 90ies were much more liberal than Indian folks nowadays. The Indian politics and culture turned heavily right-wing, as in the 70ies. Caste discrimination is not open, but still ongoing. Brahmans, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras (the higher castes) will of course deny it, but still discriminate against the Dalit or muslims. If in private or in the workplace.

Indian movies became almost unwatchable lately. It's getting more and more extreme.

What does it has to do with Muslims now? Are you even aware of Indian history?

This book will help you give some context though

https://a.co/d/b55ZoJ9

Reply on news.ycombinator.com