A global addiction to plastic is turning into an environmental disaster | Hacker News Reader

A global addiction to plastic is turning into an environmental disaster

barrons.com

56 pointsSirLJ52 comments

Most plastic is not consumer but business use. As much as you think your veggies wrapped in plastic is bad, everything in the supply chain leading to your veggies was wrapped in plastic: the pallet they came on, every part that went into making the truck that shipped it (multiple times, as the truck in various states of manufacture made its way around several different geographically dispersed factories), the soil and fertilizer and pesticides that grew it, the hose that watered it, etc

this is one of the biggest frustrations i have about "making the right choices" and any other instances where organisations/governments try to make it out like individual choice makes a dent in the actual problem space.

i could throw a piece of plastic rubbish every day on the street for the rest of my life - and it would still not put anywhere near a dent in the problem. All the while - technology companies continue to create un-repairable products, released at shorter time scales, whilst convincing people what they already have needs upgrading.

Fix the system first... :/

What gets me is people will paint it as if it was you that made the mess since the company exists to serve consumer demand. Well I'm certainly not about to stop existing so it's too late to give up on that one. There's just no choice for a better option at our level.

Sure but on the other hand, let's say you buy a plastic bottle everyday (for water). There's ~ 6 billion people on earth, if everyone does that for 10 years...you know, it's a big number: 2.136e+13 bottles, that's a lot.

The thing is, bottled water is convenient as shit, I religiously use a insulated water bottle to avoid this type of waste, and I suspect a lot of people do.

So I don't think reducing personal consumption is insignificant, although I agree with you.

I definitely don't understand the love for bottled water. Maybe if the water is unsafe in an area. The insulated water bottle is better in nearly every way. It's bigger which is important because I can finish a regular bottle in moments. It stays cold for longer. I can refill it much more easily so I always have water.

I also see it more of a problem in commercial settings. Different venues will stop you from bringing the bottle in (or won't provide a way to fill it up) so you can buy the $4+ Dasani. I hate Dasani. I just want to fill my bottle.

what rankles about these pieces, is that we've seen campaigns like them before, funded by industries that output levels of waste that do make personal consumption relatively insignificant [1]

https://theoceancleanup.com/press/press-releases/over-75-of-...

Farmers use enormous amounts of plastic to wrap animal feed or cover bunker silos.

I spent some time in SE Asia. Plastic consumption is rampant there, with styrofoam trays, plastic wrap, and plastic bags used for most items in stores. Street food vendors put their food in plastic. Straws and hard plastic cups are commonplace. Litter is common and waste management is nonexistent in many areas.

One problem I’ve noticed there is the high volume of single-use plastic water bottles in use to deliver potable water. Most water is not drinkable from the tap, so this is the solution.

Ensuring country-wide safe drinking water from the tap is no small feat, so this is incredibly discouraging.

Also comes down to why the water is non-drinkable. Could it be filtered on-premises?

And/or boiled beforehand?

Depends on what the contamination is. If it's lead, you're just concentrating the lead and making things worse.

I have significantly reduced the use of plastic in the kitchen over the past few years.

* Only metal or glass containers (sometimes with plastic lids)

* But fresh vegetables/fruits (95% of these are not covered in plastic) and grains/spices from bulk barn (take your own glass containers and fill them up).

* Meat and dairy comes in plastic wrap or bottles. But I am hoping to find a butcher who will let me take away the meat in my own glass container. Also searching for a good exchangable container milk+yogurt store.

* Have reusable bags for groceries that last many years.

There is still quite some plastic used, but I am probably close to the 10th percentile when it comes to plastic usage.

> But fresh vegetables/fruits (95% of these are not covered in plastic)

That's nice but most of the plastic waste probably happens before you even buy it. If you really wanna reduce your waste in this area you should try to stick to what's in season[0] and grows locally. Also grow your own greens. They're easy to grow and the amount of waste produced and energy consumed just to get these leaves to stay green by the time they get to a customer is pretty shocking

[0] https://www.seasonalfoodguide.org/

Yes, we go to the farmer's market in the summer.

Unfortunately, can't grow anything where we live, besides herbs, which we do.

> Have reusable bags for groceries that last many years

There is another way. After you’ve paid for the items, put them back into the shopping cart. This is very easy at self checkout. Take the cart to your car and unload the items into one or more plastic bins (typically used to store stuff long-term and come with lids). Carry the bins into the kitchen when you arrive home and unload.

I can fit all groceries into one or two large bins. It makes unpacking items really easy once at home. I don’t have 15 bags to carry , reusable or plastic.

Take the cart to your car

I think it would be better if you rode a bicycle or took a public transit, preferably train.

unload the items into one or more plastic bins

whoa there.. Not sure about those plastic bins. There is another way, unload them into handcrafted wood (sustainably sourced, of course), bins.

This is an unnecessary degree of sneering and disdain directed at someone sharing an an anecdote.

It's not unreasonable though. A small, reasonably efficient car uses the equivalent of 15 plastic bags of oil for every mile driven.

That still feels very far from net zero. The train is supported by rail and concrete. It is far better to walk or better yet minimize your trips to the store altogether. Reducing your motion will reduce your need to consume.

Reducing your motion will reduce your need to consume.

So true, I've been practicing slow shallow breaths to reduce carbon output. Staying totally still most of the day reduces some of the dizziness.

Laying down in a box (of course made of locally sourced wood) makes it very easy to stay still. Sometimes I still feel the urge to move so to prevent this a wooden cover is place and nailed to the top.

There is another way... Take the cart to your car

If you’re really concerned about your environmental impact, you’re probably not driving a car (which itself is made of hundreds of pounds of plastic). Much better to take transit, bike, or walk.

My bike has a folding pannier basket that perfectly fits a reusable shopping bag.

My bike has a non-folding rear basket that fits two full-size reusable shopping bags. :-)

Totally agreed on the car. Seems silly for someone to talk about small amounts of plastic when they're driving a gigantic gas-guzzling SUV and pouring tons of carbon into the atmosphere.

Not an option for many people in the US when the nearest grocery store is too far and you need to shop for a family.

Totally an option when you choose a place to live.

“Hey I NEED that plane trip to visit my family 2000km from where I moved last year”

At least we're doing all doing our part to make those seat pitches shorter and shorter.

There are cargo bikes, but some places are very bike unfriendly and culture is very hard to change.

Why don't you just bring your bags inside the store? Then you can put your groceries in your bags and don't need to worry about a cart

Don't have a car or a license. I walk/bike/transit to the markets.

I am looking for a cart [1], that I can push to the store and back with my groceries. Ideally, it will have large tires so it can actually be used in the winter.

[1] which doesn't look like a stolen shopping cart

"shopping bag on wheels"

I've got two big reusable bags in my car for that purpose. They fold up and take very little space. If you're buying salad and leafy vegetables, a basket is even better. Next time i go to the farmer's market I'll definitely take the basket.

> * Have reusable bags for groceries that last many years.

I find that now I need to buy bags (in a box!!!) for trash. Bags that are much thicker than I need most of the time.

> Buy fresh vegetables/fruits (95% of these are not covered in plastic)

In France, supermarket customers have to self-weigh their vegetables/fruit purchases and only recently did stop making you put things like your weighed bananas in bags. Cashier used to always look at me funny when I just slapped the label on the banana peels.

I have never put produce in the plastic bags available. I just put them directly in my shopping basket. Then go to self checkout and put them in my reusable bag.

"Meat and dairy comes in plastic wrap or bottles."

I kind feel like if your butcher doesn't use butcher paper, you aren't really going to a butcher but a meat department at a grocery store.

I go to an independent locally-run "meat shop" as they call it. Thy do use butcher paper, but then put the whole thing in a plastic bag to prevent leakage.

I haven't actually asked them if I can bring my own container. Maybe they will be open to it.

Probably depends on the product. My local butcher sells most things wrapped in paper, but sausages come in a plastic bag (I have no idea why).

Do you really think paper is more sustainable? In my place they burn the rubbish and paper even if recycled is more questionable.

Paper comes from trees that extract carbon from air. Trees have a lifecycle wayyyyyy shorter that oil so when you use paper you’re on a ~50y removable scale which is more human manageable that the oil one.

Takes oil and other non renewable to cut it and process. Plastic is more or less a side product of the oil industry. https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/sustainabl...

I didn't state a position on that. I only said my butcher uses both.

Markets are efficient and fossil fuel companies are ruthless in making money. So obviously they will price their new plastics always cheaper than recycled.

Cost of recycled and new plastic can easily be inverted by just taxing new plastic until it’s twice as expensive as recycled. Recycled can be subsidized with new plastic taxes. Problem solved!

Globally only 9% [1] of plastic waste is recycled, and there's a lot of reasons why. It can be dirty, contaminated, low-grade, or simply require more inputs than producing new plastic. The idea that plastic can be meaningfully recycled was an oil industry propaganda campaign to make people feel better about consuming it.

The only way to really make a dent here is to reduce consumption.

We do agree though that the externalities should be priced in and that is a good use of government.

[1] https://www.oecd.org/environment/plastic-pollution-is-growin...

I cannot agree enough with this statement. While some products such as glass and aluminium can be recycled quite effectively, I can’t help but cringe when literally every recycling bin I peek into is filled with 90% contaminated or flat out non-recyclables, because people just put everything in the wrong bin to avoid guilt. I wonder if recycling is even a net positive at this point? Ie, would we be better just throwing everything in the trash if it meant people actually considered their consumption?

Another crazy invention is “compostable” packaging. This has really taken off in the past few years. Yet no one seems to understand that it needs to be composted commercially, yet virtually none of it is. It can’t be recycled, and if you put it in the bin, it won’t compost. Conveniently this is never mentioned. These products are basically a trick designed to keep consumption high by allowing individuals to absolve themselves of guilt.

Reducing consumption is the only solution.

It's even worse when you put contaminated plastics in the recycling bins because if a container load exceeds a certain threshold level of contamination the whole load has to be landfilled.

Fossil fuel companies certainly are ruthless. Though, there's no need for them to play pricing games with recycled plastic. Tax-wise, there is not nearly enough recycled plastic. It turns out most plastic cannot be recycled at all. A number of stories broke not too long ago that the myth of plastic recycling was pushed by oil industries to make everyone feel good about using plastic because they were then "recycling" it.

Some references:

"How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled" - https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-...

"California is investigating Big Oil for allegedly misleading the public on recycling" - https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095305949/california-is-inve...

"Big Oil Sold the World on a Plastics Recycling Myth. It May Be Too Late to Undo the Damage" - https://time.com/6173859/plastic-recycling-big-oil-damage/

https://archive.ph/KFE3L

Plastic is just too good a material for too many use cases.

On a side note, I had a shower thought the other day. Isn't plastic one form of carbon sequestration? It doesn't decompose easily and holds carbon in place. If plastic is land filed then it will remain out of the atmosphere. I know this is an overly simplistic view, but given plastic is a byproduct of oil refinement, I don't see too much to hate.

I don't think we can count it as carbon sequestration, at least not in a useful sense: we burn lots of energy to pump it out of the ground (i.e., where it actually is sequestered) and to refine it and mold it into shapes. Throwing it into a dump is probably better than burning it, but the best thing of all would be to only extract the bare minimum we need.

Look at East Palestine. Those chemicals are chemicals used to make a type of plastic.

PET is made of ethylene glycol and dimethyl terephthalate. Ethylene glycol in particular is known as a teratogen (a chemical which causes physical deformities).

In addition, there is a big difference in forever chemicals that are now geographically distributed throughout the world, especially the ocean seabeds, vs having it all in one place. And the environmental and health effects of certain microplastics are still being studied but research in mice and rats shows they accumulate in the liver and kidney and induce significant alterations in blood biomarkers for neurotoxins

That’s will do the job for you, not your kids. Not an expert but pretty sure most of our plastics degrades pretty quickly with by the UV, wind and rain.

Also the article is focused on PET, I don’t think your shower is made from this crap.

It's interesting to see headlines like this a few years after people were worried about peak oil.

Don’t you ? Nearly all what i (need to) eat, drink, travel, work is based on oil in a way or another. While this, others headlines promisses cheap oil sand extraction, co2 capture, oceans cleanup and so many VC bait. Want to bait with them on our kids future ?

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