There is always bashing if there is something about the EU and its national projects, not always deserved. However sometimes I wished HN showed more of local projects. For example: has there been a post about the European AI?
It sometimes is almost reminiscent of the eastern European oligarchs that emerged at the end of the coldwar.
The documentary "Downfall: The Case Against Boeing"[1] goes into this topic, and I believe the wiki page[2] summary captures it nicely:
> "There were many decades when Boeing did extraordinary things by focusing on excellence and safety and ingenuity. Those three virtues were seen as the key to profit. It could work, and beautifully. And then they were taken over by a group that decided Wall Street was the end-all, be-all. [...]"
Of course, I have no idea if this is just cherry-picking information, but it does seem plausible why things "suddenly" changed.
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11893274/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boe...
You just said it. When we prioritize the money over the activity that makes the money... We deprioritize the activity - it's at least second place if not worse.
Boeing was heavily criticized by HN in every thread I saw about it. You picked a wrong example.
And at the same time, if we stay within Aerospace, why is SpaceX utterly dominating anything from Europe. Is US business culture to blame?
Sure, you can make bad bussiness decisions but this doesn't mean you cannot build proper airplanes.
This is bit of a glib view of Boeing.
Boeng and Airbus will trade spaces for a while, until China starts stelling it's gear at 1/2 the price and then we will see some material changes.
They just don't like that it exists.
I'm guessing this is due to stupidity manifesting in different ways in their respective regions.
Like apparently the UK bring a knife-ridden crime epicentre, when the knife-crime rate is, while unacceptably high, actually rather lower than the US, and that's before you consider guns which are about 10 times more on top of that.
(And let's please at least pretend that the UK is still in the EU for argument's sake :)
Then again, my perspective is from someone not originally from Europe, that chose to migrate here and declined job offers from the US even though I would receive considerably more money had I accepted. I have zero regrets, by the way.
So take my opinion as one without the social nuance from someone born here.
The reality is also that almost non of the people in the countries were actually asked if they wanted to join.
There is a difference between being pro European integration and pro existing EU structure.
mind you, European integration is a major political pillar in national politics of basically all countries inside of europe and its periphery.
People vote on parties based on there political program, and most people seem to want to vast economic benefits being a member states brings. (heck, ukraine is basically fighting a war at the moment about an issue which basically boils down to European integration).
People definetly had a say if they wanted EU membership through the political process of there country.
The only case where this is a bit of a grey area is of the founding countries of the precursor of the EU. (european community of coal and steel). Most of those measures got passed as policy without a lot of democratic process by the populance.
But we cannot change the past, and considering the state of most of europe during the 1950's i wouldn't judge them so harshly for it.
The reality is most people vote primary for domestic polices, and the extent what the EU would do was not understood by voters at the time. There is a difference in initially joining and then having very little choice in the continue growth of that institutions power.
And in fact, in many places where aspects of the EU were put to a popular vote it actually fails.
There is also the reality that things like the EU/Euro were political projects and that Germany after the Cold War had to agree to some of these things in order for France and Britain to accept its unification.
People certainty were not asked if Eastern nations should be allowed to join the EU. Again, shouldn't a popular vote be in order when an institution like the EU considers adding a new member that can massively impact its economy and will receive untold billions in subsidies?
I'm Swiss so for me, a decision of such huge importance should actually be based on a popular vote. Not 'well in the 70s leftist parties were broadly more popular'. And once you are in, its incredibly hard to get out, and that is by design.
A real European Union based on fundamentally pro European pro Democracy principles would have been established over many steps and many votes. This would give some granularity to the choices. Maybe the population like one aspect of the many EU polices, but not the other.
In Switzerland we rejected the EG, but we joined Schengen, both based on popular vote. We join institutions such as ESA and many others. That seems to me to be a much better process of incrementally growing together.
> the state of most of europe during the 1950's i wouldn't judge them so harshly for it.
Lets not pretend the EU was formed in the 1950s.
This is democracy at its finest.
edit: apparently this is a controversial statement
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?con...
My personal suspiction is that UK citizens were mislead about the consequences of leaving but, hey, democracy is about taking decisions with incomplete information. People have spoken and their decision is sacred. I wish the UK the best luck and it's with sadness that I believe they will need a lot of it.
Besides their xenophobia and racism, at least the Nordic countries are closer to informed voters.
In the EU as a whole it's slightly higher because of the East countries (Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Estonia, ...) where inflation is crazy high because of their dependency on Russia for energy.
UK is in the very West of Europe, not East, and not reliant on Russia as East countries are. The economic impact of Brexit has just been significant, as it was supposed to be. Everybody knew it would be. Brexit was never about economy, but mainly sovereignty. That's a legitimate trade-off, of course, and many in the UK prefer to be a bit poorer in exchange for less dependency on their neighbours. I respect that. But it's important not to fool oneself thinking that leaving the highest economy in the world (EU economy was bigger than US' before UK left) was going to be good for the UK economy. That's just nonsense.
That said not all the good stuff actually was caused by the EU either. I'd recommend watching Yes Minister but apparently that will get you put on a watchlist these days... https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1153smh/yes_min...
The fact is politicians at all levels including EU take credit for things they didn't do and try to ignore the fallout from things they did. All the while blaming the voters. Mainly because changing public perception of policy choices takes time and effort and they have limited of both and tend to want to focus on things they actually care about.
At the worst times, you could phone to thirty pharmacies with a relatively standard recipe (Augmentin etc.) and be turned away everywhere.
Been there, done that.
Sounds precisely like Czechia right now.
The reality is that most of the UKs problems were not because of the EU before and are not because they left the UK now.
The US is used to this. The EU still have to adjust.
the comments basically boil down to "EU bad, US better"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_Franklin_(rover)
Oh well, one way to avoid it crashing I guess. ;-)
Still, Europe being responsible for Mars having two Shapirelli craters is cool as well. ;-)
As an Australian, that's a pretty glowing interpretation of the US intervening where they aren't wanted or needed
Was the US protecting 'democracy' when they annexed Hawaii, or how they've treated Cuba? Or Vietnam or South America or Iraq or any litany of other countries
Hell. They helped depose Gough Whitlam because he dared threaten to nationalize our mines ala Norway, not to mention that worthless spying ring that is Pine Gap
Nor the mid 1970's
The same way I think it is super important to challenge Russia's current defense against Ukrainian aggression.
If you’re in NZ you don’t have to fall for American capitalist agitation propaganda. It’s obvious the US only cares about advancing capitalism and its own imperialist whims.
Comments which can be adequately summarized as "nuh uh" are noise. There is no information whatsoever being communicated with such low-effort posts.
It's silly to blame HN for this. This sort of headline is just asking for the conversation to be derailed. Which is exactly why your comment is #1 and the comments below it are quickly derailing into it's own version of EU vs US.
[1] which is apparently a political group's website https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renew_Europe
I don't know why the EU / Europe can't just do interesting things without coming across as so desperate to prove something – can we not just start a cool AI company without branding it a "European AI company", as if that's something so unlikely we should be proud of it?
An AI company started by kids would be something worth noting, an AI company started by the world's most prosperous and well educated continent is kinda cringy. I can't think of a single American company which does this.
what’s your position on the EU? perhaps I notice the negative comments more because I’m very pro-EU, and vv for you?
Which reminds me that USA != America, also. It would be perfect we should not have to deduce from context when 'American' refers to anyone from the whole continent, from Canada to Chile, or just someone from the US. I guess it would be more practical to use 'US' and 'US citizen', for clarity...
I guess I have a generally slightly negative opinion of Europe (or more accurately, of the portrayal of Europe I generally see online), having lived there for a little while. I guess it's that I honestly see a lot, lot more of harsh america bashing than criticism of europe. But ultimately, I'm a bit of an outsider to both the US and Europe and it might be that the constant, louder "america bad" makes eu bashing less apparent to me.
And far more sensitive about it.
All Americans are cynical about their own country and government.
The EU is a wierd entity, and few Europeanns have a true understanding of the mechanisms of power, the horrible democracy deficit; a result of a kind of 'blind faith' in institutions, and a naivte with respect to the power and motivation of their leaders.
I guess it's a bit like the 'faith' we have in something like the UN, it's all well meaning, but when you look at operational elements it's bizarre. There's a kind of utterly detached academic view that permeates UN culture, it reminds me of Brussels.
The French population roundly rejected the trety of Lisbon, the French government went ahead with it anyhow, and future referendums in Europe were annulled because the elite had no will to allow the plebes to have a voice. In their view, the plebes woudl be too dumb to make the calculation.
The European Court of Justice is one of the most insane things in Judicial history of the world - it was never granted the powers it has (!), rather, it 'took them'. ECJ 'Judicial Supremacy' is the longest political sleight of hand in history. It's a bit mind-melting and the smoke that the institutions throw up to try to imply legal foundations are established. In Germany, they still contest the legitimacy of ECJ Supremacy, as they should, but it's not allowed to be talked about outside Germany. If they bring it up in the UK or Poland it's considered 'alt right' inanity.
Nobody ever voted for Ursula Von Der Leyen and nobody even knew who she was (outside of Germany) before the election - and yet - she speaks for everyone now! Because Democracy! All of the arguments in support of this system of choosing leadership fall flat, like Russians justifying their invasion of Ukraine. European elite could 'fix' that specific representation problem instantly, they very actively don't want to.
Those are tiny examples, there are so many more.
Commenters here and other places are super pro-EU in a way that if it were some other country we'd recognize it as being very nationalist, but for some reason, maybe because the EU is not quite a country, we judge the defensiveness by a different standard. Americans might say things that are effectively pro-America, but rarely in a directly nationalist manner. No Americans is going to run on about some government program, rather more like a story about something that is 'great', but which happens to be in America.
Also, for some strange reason the Swiss are the other hyper-sensitive nationalist group here in that if you say anything they will come out like an Army. I'm not necessarily complaining, just nothing that oddity. Also maybe Canadians, except nobody ever talks about them (or rather 'us' as I am Canadian).
As for satelites, we have every right to be skeptical - the EU is 20 years behind in this regard and talk is cheap.
They are 'reacting' to this war, which is a function of careless strategic orientation of the past.
Maybe this 'wake up call' will reveberate into other sectors.
.... it was amazing to see Germany drop it's dependance on Russian Oil very quickly, I'm sure we are all as impressed by that as Ukrainian resilience in the face of invasion. So let's hope for more than Satelites.
Americans don’t know anything about America. They love the Founding Fathers and founding of the country. There’s nothing critical to them. Holding the govt or corporations accountable is never done.
Americans can’t talk about great govt program because there’s so few of them. Of the Govt programs they do talk about, the major ones are: Defense, Social Security, Medicare. That covers most of the usefulness of the government. That’s unfortunately capitalism.
I’m first gen POC American, but I don’t like America. Anything Europe or EU is going to be better. Or Canada.
Remeber 'Rambo'? The simple Vietnam Vet who comes home and is harrassed by the Police for no reason?
Or the 'Most American Film Ever' aka the Godfaather, which is criminal family's rise to power - and the Patriarch wanting the son to be 'something legit' aka a 'Senator'? That's JFK.
The American military, DARPA etc. are all amazing things, and frankly so is the Constitution and major institutions aka Congress even as people are cynical they are 'believers' in the end.
Anyhow - 'crude nationalism' isn't that common in intellectual circles where as defensive pro-EU (as an institution) commentary is all over the place and people who don't go for it are 'alt-something' etc. This is unique.
Meanwhile the whole US government gets shut down seemingly every other year.
You'll note that I didn't say "Galileo sucks," or "those guys are morons," or that there was no reason to build it. But the fact that it took longer to commission than the original NAVSTAR GPS system doesn't augur well for a Starlink clone. Which, in any event, will probably be so highly regulated and censored that it will be more like an orbital Minitel than a conventional ISP.
I presume thats the gripe with a lot of these ”EU” technologies