Apple gets a cut of search revenue from Chrome as part of secret Google deal
9to5mac.com
9to5mac.com
Not as strongly anti-competitive as not competing with a giant, but an angle on the App Store transaction tax that had not occurred to me before.
They're paying for access, not to keep Apple out of search -- otherwise they'd pay a few extra billions on top so that users on Windows can't use that potential Apple search.
Why isn't Google paying Microsoft billions per quarter to stop Bing? Because Bing isn't a threat, and neither would Apple Search be. What is a threat is Apple making it hard for users on iOS to use Google Search. That's what the money is for, it's the rent they pay to have their little shop in the walled garden.
Could you expand on what you mean here?
It’s cheaper to pay Apple than to keep Android relevant. No different than Microsoft sending a firehos of cash to OpenAI.
My guess: Apple didn't compete with Google in some market with their ad platform.
However it doesn't arise naturally. It must be forced by external incentive because in the absence of it selfish interests of system participants strongly disincentivises it. When it's forced it benefits all, saving all participants from making bad calls.
As it relates to companies it stifles innovation for starters.
> It must be forced by external incentive because in the absence of it selfish interests of system participants strongly disincentivises it.
Are you saying here that transparency must be “forced” because the absence of transparency disincentivizes transparency?
There are places where there's transparency about this. And they don't fare worse than other places.
The key is for the transparency to work, everyone needs to be transparent about the thing. Voluntary transparency doesn't work as you noticed.
I wouldn't mind having my home address, email, phone number and salary public if everyone elses is too.
Transparency doesn't stiffle innovation it allows any innovation to spread quickly across the whole market which enables further innovation. Every innovation is built on the shoulders of what came before. Letting the before stay secret stifles innovation.
> Are you saying here that transparency must be “forced” because the absence of transparency disincentivizes transparency?
Yes. Exactly. I'm afraid of disclosing my address because published addresses are rare. If my address was one of millions published addresses I would have way fewer objections. People with personal enemies might have more objections but then again if they couldn't hide it would force the society to deal with their oppressors better.
Not necessarily. It can happen in some cases, but in others it leads to a lack of innovative behavior because you shouldn’t invest in generating trade secrets or better products because you can just wait for your competitor to do so and then just obtain what they do. This is well understood.
> There are places where there's transparency about this. And they don't fare worse than other places.
What are you basing this claim on?
> Yes. Exactly. I'm afraid of disclosing my address because published addresses are rare.
Well your address is public record and can be obtained easily, but if transparency is a moral virtue as you claim I find it odd that you need others to engage in moral behavior before you do so.
With that being said, I publish my real name and a link to my LinkedIn profile so anyone who reads a comment can attribute it to me (good or bad). I actually find it helps engage better online, so I guess there is some virtue to transparency. Why not do the same in your profile?
> What are you basing this claim on?
Continued existence of the entire country of Norway.
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/norway/articles/norway-cou...
> Not necessarily. It can happen in some cases, but in others it leads to a lack of innovative behavior because you shouldn’t invest in generating trade secrets or better products because you can just wait for your competitor to do so and then just obtain what they do. This is well understood.
It's a theory proposed in the defence of intellectual property system. There's zero actual evidence for it that I know of. But there's evidence that economies that disregarded intelectual property rights can grow and become dominant or at least seriously challenge current leaders. UK, USA, Germany, China and others became what they were and are today by blatantly copying innovation with complete disregard to any intellectual property which they introduced only after they rose to prominence to stifle competition.
> transparency is a moral virtue as you claim I find it odd that you need others to engage in moral behavior before you do so
People are immoral by nature. Being moral while others are not puts you at a disadvantage. I have no idea why are you surprised by my reluctance.
I don't do what you do because it wouldn't bring me any benefit.
Compared to what? Quality of life? Median income per-person? Longevity? Norway existing and having this feature in absence of some comparable isn’t very helpful.
But also how are you going to account for cultural differences and expectations? Or are you asserting that this is good for all countries no matter what?
> It's a theory proposed in the defence of intellectual property system. There's zero actual evidence for it that I know of.
I don’t think it’s a defense of the intellectual property system although perhaps others have mixed the two. You don’t need an intellectual property system to find the behaviors of companies or other mercantile endeavors where secrets were kept to obtain an advantage. Many companies today don’t publish or try to protect their IP because the act of publishing it makes it open to reverse engineering.
Do you know of any country or even company for that matter that is completely open about all trade secrets, strategic plans, hiring decisions, or other business related activities? Can I see the CEO’s calendar, or read their internal chat messages or email?
> I don't do what you do because it wouldn't bring me any benefit.
> I have no idea why are you surprised by my reluctance.
I wouldn’t say I’m surprised, but it undermines your strong moral claims around transparency in my view. If you won’t be transparent, then why should others? Someone has to be first. Why not you?
Whatever. If the argument is that transparency of income inevitably leads to some kind catastrophy then it's your burden to explain why it didn't lead to any catastrophy in Norway. And that's impossible since there are so many factors at play as you noticed that you can't really convlusively prove that income transparency is not benign or even beneficial by itself.
> Many companies today don’t publish or try to protect their IP because the act of publishing it makes it open to reverse engineering.
That's true. Because for them it's not worth it. You could make it worth it for them if you strengthened the external incentive. For example let products on the market only if details of their operation are properly documented and published. We are doing something like that about impotrant products like food which composition must be revealed.
You want to keep your secret ingredients in your food a secret? Sure, but you need to sell it in some other country. We could be doing that about all products which would offer immense consumer protections.
> Do you know of any country or even company for that matter that is completely open about all trade secrets, strategic plans, hiring decisions, or other business related activities? Can I see the CEO’s calendar, or read their internal chat messages or email?
Unfortunately not, but there are some rules about public companies that let you get a lot of very enlightening information about them. I really see no downside to extending those rules to all companies and extending the scope of those rules as much as possible. Imagine how many environmental and health disasters could be avoided.
> Someone has to be first. Why not you?
Because it doesn't work like that. If I do it, it doesn't improve probability of others doing it. It might even lower it because being moral among a morals puts me at visible disadvantage. And benefits of transparency grows with the number of transparent entities.
It's the same argument as with millionaires whi want higher taxation on millionaires. Why they don't just tax themselves voluntarily? Because others wouldn't follow and it's not about taxing them and putting themselves at disadvantage. It's about taxing all, so that the poor can benefit but it's still fair game between the rich.
> I wouldn’t say I’m surprised, but it undermines your strong moral claims around transparency in my view.
I never claimed to be a moral person myself. I won't do things I consider moral and benefit to society if they put me at a disadvantage. But that doesn't make me not see that those things in fact are moral and would benefit the society if they were enforced on everybody equally including me.
They are codependent in a way and AAPL seems to have the upper hand, currently.
I'm thinking Satya is pretty jealous of this arrangement. Recent comments of his suggest that he thinks Google should be paying Microsoft every time a Windows user searches on Google.
I don’t doubt Satya feels that way, but for the situation to really be analogous, Google would need to be the default search on Windows instead of Bing. Google has to deal with Apple because Google wants to be the default on the iPhone.
This is short term thinking
Subsidies from apps, while they are usually bundled apps, which Apple doesn't do, are commonplace in hardware vendors' income. For PC makers, it is a more significant part of their business model.
This is the amount of money Google pays to third parties to get traffic into its services.
It is interesting, however, to see the amounts:
2007, 25 million: https://daringfireball.net/2007/06/wwdc_2007_keynote
2009, 82 million: https://techcrunch.com/2013/02/12/google-to-pay-apple-1-bill... (sorry couldn't find the original article)
2013, 1 billion: https://techcrunch.com/2013/02/12/google-to-pay-apple-1-bill... (same as above)
2015, 1 billion: https://searchengineland.com/prediction-apple-will-not-renew...
2016, 1 billion: https://www.macworld.com/article/227243/report-google-is-the... and https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/22/google-pa...
2017, 3 billion: https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-paying-apple-3-bi...
2018, 9 billion: https://searchengineland.com/report-google-to-pay-apple-9-bi...
2018, 12 billion: https://fortune.com/2018/09/29/google-apple-safari-search-en...
2019, 9 billion: https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/02/12/apple-may-have-be...
2020: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-24/deals-wit...
This new claim is that Google pays Apple cut of search revenue, in addition to that.
Yes the Safari deal has been well known, but Chrome deal was not known and raises questions.
My only guess is that apple was gunna force all browser apps to respect default search engine settings unless Google paid the money.
TFA claims that in section 5.118, Google pays a cut for people using Safari as well.
"Under these agreements, Apple receives a significant share of revenue from Google Search traffic on Safari and [x] on iOS devices."
Many distribution agreements have a clause saying the distributor can't create their own product and compete. The reason is, as a distributor, you get a lot of insight into the customers, the product, the pricing. It's completely reasonable when you consider the full value chain of a product. Further, if Apple did compete in the search engine business, many would claim they would be unfairly competing by using their dominant market position in smart phones to dominate another industry.
Competition issues are complex.
Alternatively, Apple could have forced Google to pay, as part of a money skimming exercise because Apple has Google by the balls so why not get a cut?
Without more information, it is just picking sides to speculate that Google is the bad guy and Apple is the good guy.
Although it occurs to me that you might mean Apple should build their own search engine - which is a terrible idea. Google is really good at search engines and Apple wants their customers to have the best experience. Forcing Apple to build and promote an inferior search engine would be terrible for everyone.
I agree Siri would make sense, but on the other hand I can't imagine any reason Siri would be redacted.
I'm sorry what? On iOS, Safari is superior to Chrome in every way.
People use Chrome for the cross-platform Google account integration
Also it argues that Apple takes more time to think through features rather than just blindly adding them. For example only allowing Web Push for apps installed to the phone rather than the bombarding the user.
I haven't run numbers but it feels similar to Safari in that I can use it pretty much all day without reaching for the charger - that is, unless I'm doing a lot of video confs.
Unless I'm using video conf or other very heavy websites, CPU usage tends to sit between 2 and 5% with an occasional spike.
12 hr Power in activity manager shows 19.50 (Watts, I presume) which is by far the largest in the list but it's also more or less the only app I've used in those hours :D . Activity Monitor itself usually has an energy impact of ~30.
The other day I was at the local climbing gym where they have a "Moonboard"-clone - basically a spraywall with LEDs so you can program different boulder problems by selecting holds and having their LEDs light up to indicate which are part of the problem.
The application to control it is a web app. It didn't work for me on Safari, but it did on Firefox.
I thought it could be some difference in configuration but another iOS user confirmed it worked for him on Firefox but not Safari on his phone either.
I know for a fact that Firefox uses WebKit as a rendering engine on iOS. I'm just responding to the claim that "On iOS, Chrome is Safari" and "what they allow is reskinned versions of Safari, which is basically a way to allow Chrome and Firefox to save face and support bookmarks-syncing".
I have given one example where Firefox behaves differently than Safari on iOS, and my experience was further validated by another iOS user who had never been able to use the system until I suggested they try Firefox.
I have seen other websites that behave subtly different between the browsers. Orion is another example of a browser that behaves quite differently on iOS despite also using WebKit - which they also use on the desktop apps and those also behave differently from desktop Safari.
This is a behavior that has a long history there, the no-poach agreements with Apple, selling Pixel in an extremely limited market, etc.
This inexplicable fear in dealings with Apple means their situation is worse now when Google Search is in trouble