Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
economist.com
economist.com
People get sanctimonious about not owning or using a car, and that's annoying. I just wish there were more options. I don't see us (in the US) removing car infrastructure. I could see additive changes, though, which include national public transit, with some political will and creative thinking, which means it'll never happen.
I'd argue it's a combination of money and aging infrastructure. Money is the big one (cars used to be a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain. Incomes for most used to be much higher). Infrastructure is another, in a lot of places, they haven't meaningfully upgraded any of the public driving transportation infrastructure since the 1950s to 1970s, so a lot of infrastructure is handling car volumes 200% to 600% higher than they were ever engineered for.
In Michigan, there's still very much a lot of "fun/freedom" around cars. But our population has been pretty flat this entire time (+/-2% pop change YoY since the 1960s), so even though the infrastructure is old, it's usually appropriately sized for the population in all but the newest-growth places. If you live in, say Seattle, you very much don't get that experience, public vehicle transit infrastructure has not kept up at all, and so driving is artificially a lot more of a painful burden there.
This is objectively false, cars absolutely did get more expensive in the last 30 years, they cost about double what they did in 1990, even after accounting for inflation. (see https://thesoundingline.com/since-1990-the-price-of-a-cheap-... as just one example of the math on that).
They may "last longer", sure, but that can itself also carry negative impacts (particularly on fuel economy, safety, and air pollution)
It's easy to look up prices for something average though. A 1990 Toyota Camry was $11,588 MSRP [1]. A 2022 Toyta Camry is $25,395 MSRP [2]. That's a nominal increase of 119%. Meanwhile, the CPI increase from 1990 to 2022 was 124%.
So, a Toyota Camry has decreased slightly in price, in real terms. But it's also a better car, e.g. the 1990 one got you 24 MPG combined, while the 2022 gets you 32 MPG combined. Not to mention a host of other improvements over more than two decades.
So your assertion that cars cost double even after inflation doesn't seem to hold up, at least not for an average representative car, from the data I'm able to pull.
[1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/1990/toyota/camry/4-door-sedan
[2] https://www.kbb.com/toyota/camry/2022/
[3] https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/infl...
Cars have inflated at a rate significantly lower than general inflation (typically by about half as much), meaning they've gotten cheaper in real terms. They've also gotten much safer, more fuel efficient, reliable, lower-maintenance, and long-lived.
https://www.in2013dollars.com/New-cars/price-inflation/1980-...
Median: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
Lowest quintile: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXU900000LB0102M (before taxes) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUINCAFTTXLB0102M (after taxes [which is what is spendable])
That's just not true. Maybe for some outlier car models.
For example my parents bought a base model Toyota Corolla in 1998 for 16K. A 2023 Corolla has MSRP $21,550.
16K in 1998 dollars is $29,366 today.
So, the Corolla has actually become substantially cheaper over the years!
It’s shocking how much cars have improved in only a few decades.
Everything else yes, but more reliable remains to be seen. Cars are way more complex today with tons of more fragile electronics.
That 1998 Corolla I mention above is still going strong, just drove it today. It's a very simple car, so it might well outlast the 2023 model, perhaps.
Hell, a lot of our municipalities have transport infrastructure designed for larger populations. Driving around Flint or Lansing is easy for the most part (Detroit proper can also handle much bigger traffic numbers but the roads will kill your car so that's not easy).
I hated driving in the PNW though. Especially Vancouver, with its refusal to allow highways.
Not sure if rich people worry about this, which is what the article is about, rich people.
Agree wit everything else you said though.
The richest 1% of Americans are much richer than worrying about the costs of cars, certainly, but the median American income is just very high relative to the cost of car ownership.
I live in a city now with amazing public transport and I don't miss my car at all.
They also restrict themselves to jobs they can easily get to. Which in tech was basically impossible in, say, Boston 25 years ago.
A friend of mine made the observation that people mostly just don't do optional activities if they're hard or expensive to do. So if you live carless in a city with decent public transit, you mostly restrict your recreational activities and people you get together with to what's convenient and tend not to do things that require renting a car on a Friday night and returning it Sunday or Monday.
Mostly true in my experience. I used to get away a lot more when I had a car and could just decide to hit the road whenever I wanted than I do now that I either have to rent or plan earlier and buy train tickets. It's purely friction linked by the way. I could still do all the things I did and it would actually cost me less money in the end. I just don't.
We tend to take more rides in the decoupled model, I'd think.
It might make more sense to say "in a car ownership window" than "in a month" to prevent heavy months (say, holidays/vacations) from seeming problematic and lighter months (not doing much besides working) from implying that you're winning more than you really are. Assuming sufficient buffer of funds, that is.
Really? There was plenty of tech in Kendall Sq area within an easy walk from the T. I worked for three different companies in that area and regularly walked from a couple of different apartments (generally leaving my car in the company parking garage).
It might have been impossible to do that in tech in other cities, but Boston/Cambridge has been strong for 3+ decades.
Maybe it's more like 30 years than 25 at this point but there was very little in Kendall Square a few decades ago.
The other thing that throws me off is that when I started working in Massachusetts in the mid-80s and certainly when I was a student there five years earlier or so, the area of Cambridge over toward Lechmere was sort of a different world with east of MIT being sort of a there be dragons here area of old warehouses and the like left from industrial Cambridge. Coming from the west, you mostly didn't walk much past MIT. Things were starting to pick up more in the nineties.
If I'd lived somewhere a car was needed, I'd have learned. It's not an ideological opposition to cars by any means. Occasionally I consider getting a drivers license, and then forget about it, because it's just never felt worth the hassle.
Like you I've just never felt that emotional association with freedom from a car. I think an essential aspect of that was growing up somewhere where I felt I had the same options without one.
Or learn to drive, at least. I don't think lack of a licence would stop you driving in a real emergency.
Note that this is how I evaluate my risk. I absolutely accept this will be an issue for people who live in places where getting transport might be a problem. If that's a problem here, civilisation has ended.
None of those except cooking are in any way "basic life skills". Least of all shooting a gun.
So, yeah, it'd take pretty much the end of civilisation for it to be an issue. If I had no money, or lived somewhere rural, the considerations would be different.
And not being able to drive has never been a factor for me in deciding where I want to go.
If I had any desire to regularly go to anywhere so remote that I couldn't justify hiring someone to drive me there, I'd learn to drive, but in 47 years that has happened exactly zero times.
I live in a city in a functioning society, not in a rural location or third world country, and my interests don't include anything that will see me end up in the middle of nowhere. That this might not be true for you does not mean it isn't true for me.
It was possible to do that before cars, but mass car ownership & a modern road network made it something the average consumer could do semi-routinely, instead of something that required more spare time & energy than people had day to day.
When you know not only what businesses, facilities etc. you'll find in the town 50km away, but have a fair idea of what they're like (google reviews..), the world is so much a smaller place than it was even up until the mid 1990s. And with social media, you're no more or less a stranger in your own town than anywhere else.
On the flip side, it's a fun activity to do with my kid. Pick a random country, "drive around" on SV to see what it's like there.
I'm sure we lose something from the watered down interaction though. Walking into a faraway bar or diner and chatting up the locals is much more enriching.
For an occasional weekend away I might get a car from a regular hire company as they workout cheaper for longer distance.
I suppose I never drove that much before in the UK, never really had to commute as I always try and live within walking distance to work, although I would sometimes drive if it was bad weather, but that was because public transport wasn't really an option for that, the buses were frequently backed up in the rush hour traffic and all would arrive at once instead of being evenly staggered, meaning long waits in the rain where it would have been quicker to walk anyway.
They are addressing a large scale building. I will only have 8 people and can get as many cars as 8 people are willing to pay for.
Anyone looking for a mixed-use studio apartment with a fiber line get in touch. If you like to walk in the woods and internet access this is a great building.
We are practically net-zero and survived that -15 F cold snap on heat pumps.
view.cogs.com
This is something I wish were more common in the US. I'm in a relatively high-density suburb of one of the largest US cities and they're practically nonexistent here, and even in the city are hard to come by.
Or put more succinctly, you agree cars suck. Some of us just go one car further.
I don't have a lot of money, some might even say that I don't have money.
I drive a Citroen Saxo 1.0 year 2000 in the golden colour and the incredible sense of freedom it gives me is strong enough where I don't care how much a car costs ( It cost 350€), I don't care for luxury, I mean my radio stopped working about three years ago.
I still remember my father telling me many years ago, not being able to drive is like not being able to read or write, you're basically illiterate, and to some extent I have to agree.
Having a car gives me the same feeling of freedom that I've felt when I was able to walk again after getting my legs messed up.
Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do.
Not to mention, when this idea of "the freedom of a car" came about, even many smaller cities still had decent transit systems, and were denser. A car truly was freedom, because you could choose to walk downtown, or take the car, or go to the next city over because they have a really nice cafe that you like. Nowadays if you want to go anywhere, unless you're lucky enough to live in a dense city with good transit, there's no choice. It's not freedom anymore, it's a sentence.
I'm also an older millennial and like GP have no emotional attachment to cars. I also mildly resent my dependence on them, having traveled in places with fantastic public transport. I find them lonely and isolating.
I agree about the enviromental cost and other forms of entertainment. I think most of the rest can be explained by the combination of novelty + nostalgia for previous generations. Older Boomers caught the upswing out the highway act when there were new roads everywhere and an explosion of innovation in car design. The country wasn't yet totally built to enforce car ownership via sprawl, so I imagine a nice afternoon drive in the country was a thing many people enjoyed and created fond memories around.
He claimed that the sweet spot for actually-liberating transit technology was bicycles.
I ran some conservative numbers and, sure enough, take out the time worked to pay for my car and make some reasonable (but, conservative) guesses about how much closer my house would be to where I need to go if you cut out all the stuff that's only there for cars (really wide margin-zones and medians for highway, huge interchanges, gigantic parking lots far bigger than the building they serve, front lawns generally, et c.) and, despite my living only a medium-distance from the city center and making way above median income for my city... I'm roughly at break-even versus that alternative bikes-mostly world where cars are just for emergencies, deliveries to businesses, and public transit buses & elderly assistance and such, and aren't owned by individuals near the city.
The numbers get worse fast if you live any farther out, or if you make closer to median income. Like, plainly-negative-value from cars being widespread.
> We think that the car due to its speed saves time. But when you are traveling by car, you not only lose the time it takes to go from A to B. You also have to work many hours to pay your car tax, insurance, maintenance and fuel.
My addendum: Also the capital cost of the car, whether it was bought outright in cash or with a loan.
[EDIT] FWIW, I was skeptical, is why I ran the numbers. He's so right, for the average person in (I'd bet) most US cities, that it's not even a close call, it turns out.
See also: national parks
Now they're smaller, with thick heavy safety beams providing much worse visibility, and there aren't many convertibles around.
There are exceptions, but they're mostly fun for the driver, not passengers. And they're usually expensive.
Plus, at-home entertainment is far more engaging than it used to be.
Save the manual transmissions!
I joke mostly, but I'm convinced it's the only thing keeping me engaged while stuck in traffic sometimes.
If it wasn't for that, I'd have been distracted by a squirrel and love tapped something by now. Traffic is boring.
I am curious if you do not live in the US. The cars here have only gotten bigger... much bigger. Pickups and very large SUVs rule the roads now, with huge lifts and massive footprints.
Many of the most popular large SUVs, such as the Jeep Wrangler or the Ford Bronco, are in fact convertibles as well.
[EDIT] And even with the added height, the view from a truck or SUV sucks compared to those old cars. The only modern car I've been in the comes half-way close is some model or other of Tesla, and even that wasn't terribly close. Modern windows are shorter (they start higher up the door), windshields more-angled (for less actual viewing angle), and pillars have gone from a thin strip to big ol' things that are far thicker, both width and depth. One feels far less closed-in in most old cars than in most modern cars.
But I also wonder if you were a kid back then. Everything seemed larger when we were small. I can look at the garage in my parents 50 year old house and realize that cars back then fit in the same spaces as cars now, and were roughly the same footprint as far as worrying about the exact position so that you could still open the door to get in or out of the parked car.
I've been in some of those older cars more recently and yeah, they're just big and feel very open—and, anyway, these cars' being common pre-dates my childhood; though, even my sporty late-90s high school sedan felt more open than newer cars, because it was, due to all those safety changes—better visibility, less of a feeling of the car's interior trying to crush in toward you—and it wasn't a spacious-interior car for the time.
I think as time progresses, I have truly learned to dislike my car(s). Insurance where I am is out of control (one of the highest in the nation), a new car is so far out of reach it is not funny, and used ones cost far more than the last new car I purchased. I think as others have noted, there may be a number of factors leading to people not wanting them... A few young people I know do not have cars, when asked the reasons are typically money (biggest one) and pure need / desire. I think when we were young it was as symbol of freedom. I think now it is (rightfully so) either a status symbol to some, or a ball and chain that costs money just sitting in your driveway (maintenance, depreciation, insurance).
Drawbacks: It’s only free for 30 minutes per trip; Sometimes you still get the bike stolen for 150€.
I'm not interested in banning cars, but I am interested in charging appropriately for sprawl and air pollution.
That sounds like a parody of car-centric living. I can hardly believe that this is a serious suggestion.
I thought I had heard it all but "take a lyft back to the parking lot your car is in" is a new low in car culture degeneracy.
Sitting on a train or bus with screaming kids and breathing everyones air is not something that enjoyable. I prefer my own car it's more freedom.
Cramming as many people tightly packed into small cube apartments in one area so you can build a train or have a bus is highly detrimental to peoples mental health and every study proves this.
Space is important and cars solve this.
Most people live in large cities
It appears that the median resident of the United States lives in a town or city of population 18,290 (as of the census date April 1, 2020).
As a quick sanity check, the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... cuts off at population 100,000 and mentions that > The total 2020 enumerated population of all cities over 100,000 is 96,598,047, representing 29.14% of the United States population
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_are...
I hate being in traffic. On a bus, people are around but you usually don't have to think about them. You can read a book. In traffic, people aren't next to you, but you have to constantly pay attention to them.
Sounds like someone has never had to take a bus or public transport in a rough area.
In Florida everything requires a car, even in the cities you still need one let alone the suburbs. From other places I've visited in the US it seems like Florida is far from unique in this regard. It can easily be a 20+ minute drive to get dinner, go to the grocery store, etc. Driving requires constant focus to be safe (and is still pretty dangerous) while I can read on my phone on the metro (plus most trips are shorter). Most of the time I can just walk and don't even need to take the metro which is good exercise and a good time to think. Sitting in traffic was a common occurrence and and I can't think of anything as annoying that happened as often.
If I do need to take a long trip I can rent a car or use Uber, ends up being far cheaper than frequently filling a gas tank and all the other maintenance involved in car ownership even though I had cheap insurance and no car payments.
To each their own but those are the reasons why I personally much prefer public transit to driving, although I wouldn't say I like either. Walking however I enjoy greatly.
I think you may have forgotten that countries other than the US exist. Public transport in most European cities is absolutely phenomenal. And people like it because it’s cheaper and more convenient (when done right).
Public transport sucks in the US, but that's just because the US has a weird hostility towards it, so doesn't properly invest in it. There's nothing about it that makes it have to suck.
I don't think this is actually true. I can think of two cities that have decent public transit: New York (so I hear, I haven't been there) and Chicago. I've been to a lot of the other cities, including many who have won awards for their public transit, and I would call the best of those "poor".
There is no good transit system in north America. If you want to see good transit you have to go to Europe, Asia or Latin America, where even small towns can have robust transit with high ridership.
North America is comically car dependent because we build everything only focusing on how cars are going to get in and out, and require ludicrous amounts of parking onsite basically everywhere.
Our transit systems are almost always an after thought in the land use planning process. We surround places in seas of parking and put transit stops on the edge of them or put transit stops on highway access road with no sidewalks. The transit systems are often viewed and built as a charity service provided for the poor that no respectable person would use daily. The schedules rarely have sufficient frequency to make the service actually usable.
Our zoning codes make building walkable places that could support and be supported by transit illegal or restrict them to only small specific TOD projects.
Here's a great video essay on what north America gets wrong when building transit https://youtu.be/MnyeRlMsTgI
Do you feel the same way about your home? Your day's itinerary will inevitably have to see you return there, too.
Too see the other side, it may be useful to think of a personal car as home-like transportation infrastructure and always using public transit like living full-time in hostels.
If sitting on a train is like being in a hostel, then driving is like doing tedious office work in a cubicle. I’d rather hang out at the hostel.
You're unreasonably expecting the analogy to be a perfect map between the two situations, when no analogy ever is.
My car is more home-like than a bus, because the car is my space.
Even a Honda Civic can accommodate these things far better than a bus.
As you say, it’s our space.
> Do you feel the same way about your home? Your day's itinerary will inevitably have to see you return there, too.
This doesn't make any sense and misses the point that was made.
The only thing I can do in my car is sing as loudly as I like. Otherwise I am forced to focus on ensuring myself and others stay out of mortal danger, which requires a lot more energy than lounging in my home.
People who spent their life in vim don't miss the tiniest bit of whatever Jetbrains products have that isn't in vim, and likewise people who spent their computing life in IntelliJ and the like don't miss anything of what the vim crowd considers essential.
Meanwhile, with the car, I don't have any of those frustrations. During rush hour I'll sit in my car rather than waiting in the cold or standing up in a train. Given, finding parking can sometimes be frustrating, but it's a minor frustration. Going grocery shopping (or anything larger and heavier) is way more convenient with the car as well.
That said, bicycling is still one of my favourite ways to commute when the weather permits. :-)
I know people always respond that motorcycling is more dangerous than driving a car. I think you have to look through the statistics. For example, over 70% of motorcycle accidents are single-vehicle crashes - typically the motorcyclist failing to properly negotiate a curve or turn. Many of the remaining accidents are caused by high-speed riding. In my own experience, I've had normal encounters that were I driving a car would have resulted in an accident, but by riding a motorcycle I have the ability to easily maneuver to avoid the accident. A motorcycle is the most maneuverable vehicle on the road in terms of swerving, braking and accelerating. Despite those facts I have friends who act like riding down the street is a death-defying experience and are amazed I'm still alive.
I have an ulterior motive for advocating for motorcycles - electric motorcycles are becoming a thing. The Ryvid Anthem is under $9K and has a removable battery that can be easily removed and taken inside to charge using normal household current. It's going to be interesting to watch this market over the next few years.
To make sure this isn't downplayed. Having riden a motorcycle for years, many car drivers _do_ _not_ _see_ _you_. That car that just pulled out in front of you at a T stop would not have done so if you were a car. This is one of my biggest peeve that people who can't see a motorcycle are allowed to drive. You know whats smaller than a motorcycle? Pedestrians.
That said, parking a motorcycle is the best thing. Fits everywhere, just try to avoid backing up a slope.
I was a rider until I got in an accident (in the car) last year. Someone not paying attention blew a stop sign at nearly 50 mph and t-boned me. My car was totaled but luckily I walked away with only a bruised ego. Had I been on the motorcycle I'd be a smear on the road today. There are too many idiots and reckless people on the road to make it worth it to me any more.
FWIW I do agree, the safety aspect is by far the biggest downside of motorcycles/bikes. But there's plenty that can be done to make both a lot safer, and examples of countries that have pulled it off successfully. And once you have a significant fraction of people no longer using cars, roads tend to become safer for everyone.
Even guarded crosswalks are hit or miss (no pun intended). The lights are all timed for vehicles and most drivers around here think stop lights are more of a suggestion than a rule. I've lost count the number of times I've almost been hit crossing the street by a person trying to turn left before the light changes.
Having grown up in a much smaller town where we walked/rode our bikes everywhere it's jarring.
Rider here. I score you one out of three.
Motorcycles turn worse and brake worse than four-wheeled vehicles.
It also works when you live in a rural area with good connections.
(I live in one such. I was going to say “I’m lucky enough to live in one such” but there’s no luck involved: I chose this place because of it.)
I always enjoyed reminding my car-enslaved colleagues, "I never have to park the bus."
People fail to notice for all the time (and distance) spent walking back to retrieve their car. It always felt like such a victory to hop on and off busses, taking care of four or five errands, and never once having to retrace my steps.
Clearly spoken as someone who's never played (defensive) football!
What I really dislike though is living in a place that's made for cars. I miss walking to a grocery store to pick up a few things, walking to a friend's to hang out or just walking to a bar or restaurant to meet up. I've lived in the American suburbs now (mostly due to affordability) and hasn't had that experience in a long time. However, I recently had to do a unusual trip to a city in Germany near where I grew up and stayed at a downtown hotel. I mentioned to a friend that I was there and he texted me that he and his girlfriend happened to be having dinner in a restaurant not far away. Just being able to walk over and sit outside on a street filled with other diners, playing children and some guy playing piano was incredible. I'm not sure if this is all due to car centricity or other circumstances like having childhood friends in that city, it was a beautiful summer day, I was going through a tough emergency and seeing friends is extra nice then. However, given all the caveats I don't think I'd headed over to meet them if I had needed to get into a car, find parking etc since it was very short notice and I didn't know if I had 10 minutes or 3 hours till I had to go back to the emergency situation.
What I do know is that I do badly want more of that all the time!
To me cars, equal freedom. I grew up in a small neighborhood, I rode bikes to my friends houses there but my neighborhood was so far removed from other places and stores that there was no other place to go. Getting my license at 16 opened so many doors for me. Now I could go hang out at my other friends houses that lived 10-15 miles away from me. I could get a job, go to the store and movies, and just cruse around without having my parents question me. I didn't have a cell phone back then, so being able to leave and not be contacted was glorious.
For college I moved out to the Texas Panhandle. When gas was cheap I'd often go out for long drives into the country with friends, to talk, so explore and see what was out there, to visit family, and to make beer runs because our city was dry meaning you had to go out of town to buy a six pack.
When I have had extended periods of not having a vehicle I have get a visceral sense of foreboding and dread. I feel like a caged animal, unable to leave any situation, escape in case of danger. These feelings mildly lessen if public transit is available, but they are still there. Having any kind of vehicle feels like safety as I know I can flee if I need to, even if I don't.
I think your point of view aligns well with the idea that increased density and good alternative transit options lead to less need and want for cars.
But rural and isolated areas can’t live without a car (or a credible alternative).
As much as I’d like car to disappear, there’s a lot of use of it that we can’t replace without severely altering some of the population’s quality of life
I'm sure when everything is in walking distance, that the costs to store a vehicle becomes unmaintainable, and largely unneeded. But for a large swath of American's living outside of the major metros in the north, having a car is just a way of life.
This is probably why. It's less clear cut when there's an abundance of places to go and things to do within easy walking/biking/transit distance.
I'm always fascinated by the idea of high density cities, because that kind of lifestyle is so foreign to me. While I would love to have stores and restaurants that stay open past 9 pm, I don't think I want to live in such close quarters to so many other people.
I've just moved to a suburb of Philadelphia. I'm on a quiet residential street, but there's a train station to Philly about an 8 minute bike ride away (with trains every 7ish minutes at rush hour), and the route is reasonably comfortable. Likewise there's a main street about a 5 minute ride away with several restaurants and shops, and the neighboring towns are similar. (Riding on the main street itself is less comfortable, but there's at least a documented plan to add bike infrastructure.)
There's also a big-box shopping center that would be a 12 minute ride away, but there's currently no safe route there without a car. That's a policy choice though, there's nothing about the distances involved that would make it infeasible.
Despite all this, I would guess that my neighborhood doesn't fundamentally look much different than those you're familiar with. It's maybe slightly more compact, but unless you're really far out there my guess is it's just better-connected.
Not showing my actual house for obvious reasons but this is representative: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MidgjesXcKjgTFnt9
I love having a car! I can't imagine not having a car when you have KIDS! Driving them to their various sports games, with a car full of their equipment. Going camping with them. Getting groceries for a family of 5.
I can't imagine doing that on public transport.
It is possible. It just depends on where do you live and how comfortable you are.
Rain or snow doesn't really matter either; that's what fenders and a jacket are for, and in any case it rarely rains heavily non-stop, but comes in waves, so I can just wait until the rain pauses for a little while.
It's great fun, actually. I hate getting groceries by car now.
The worst part is that the shopping carts aren't near the bike rack, so its quite a hastle to deal with toddlers trying to run away.
It's 100% about the equipment. Gore-Tex. Neoprene. Fenders. Front and rear racks. Waterproof panniers. Lithium-ion batteries. Motor.
Park right in front of the market. Pop the panniers into a cart. Stow the groceries directly into them. No hauling bags out to your car, loading them into the trunk, and then unloading them at home. Instead, transfer straight from the panniers to the fridge and pantry.
I do it year-round in the hilly and rainy Pacific Northwest, and it's actually kind of fun.
40 years ago I walked to school, played in parks, rode my bike with friends.
Now my grandchildren would be confiscated by Child Protective Services and their parents face prison if anyone under 13 isn't accompanied at all times, both inside and outside their homes, by an adult.
My Boomer parents, on the other hand, own five or six cars, including several Corvettes and still go on long drives just for fun. We just can't understand each other.
I also live in a place now that has a "car culture," like people come to visit for races and car shows, and to do scenic drives in their exotic Ferrari and Lamborghini sports cars. To a first approximation, it's all Boomers.
People who collect things, or have a workshop in their garage, or go fishing, or hunting, or real hiking, or any outdoor activity really, or who have children (especially more than one).
If I lived in the city, I would probably get rid of my car and just rent one when I needed it. But I just don't really want to live in the city because none of the stuff I enjoy most is there.
Even with all that goodness, roughly half the population in the neatherlands owns a car, despite how outrageously expensive it can be there. There are still great reasons to own a car, and frankly I think everyone's experience would be better if walking, biking, and public transit were safe and viable. That could get so much traffic off the road. It would make driving much more pleasant.
Owning a car should be a 'nice to have' and not a 'need'.
Absolutely no question, living in the city (in this case, Manhattan/NYC), a car is a liability. Parking was either insanely expensive or a game of musical chairs 2X per week as the no parking times for the streetsweepers come up (and that was decades ago).
But anywhere else, the car is basically a necessity. Doesn't have to be fancy, but it does have to be. I keep looking at electric motorcycles/scooters for a relatively short commute, but not keen on the hazards (and I'm not risk averse; I've had sportscar racing licenses & experience, rock climbing, etc., but when surgeons I know call motorcycles "donor-cycles", I take the hint).
What is sad is that only rarely is driving fun anymore. A long drive in the country on a nice day was a real joy, but there's just too much traffic now...
When I was in Europe, my daily routine was get up, grab a donut from the corner shop connected to my flat, walk one block to the subway. If I was lucky, there would be a tram waiting at the other subway station and I could just jump on, or walk the 8 blocks to the office. When I stayed at the office late, the subway was closed but I could always take the night tram the long, long way around.
It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. You buy a ticket, then you can simply walk onto any form of public transit. Subway, tram, busses, even a ferry over the river. And it cost the equivalent of $1.50 to go all the way across one of the largest cities in Europe. It's easy and pleasant, and leaves you free to read a book or work on your laptop if you really want.
Meanwhile in the US, I have to maintain this car, I have to pay something like $30/week in gas and parking. I have to deal with our inadequately maintained roads that damage my car. I also have to deal daily with the incredibly high-stress situation of not letting other drivers fucking kill me. I have at minimum two close calls a week.
I could take the bus here, but it turns a 20 minute commute into 2 hours.
I'd take a subway and a sidewalk 100% of the time. Zero question, no hesitation. It's simply superior in all ways.
The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car.
Okay, so what about used cars? The average used car price in the U.S. is now over $28K (KBB). That's more than I've ever paid for any new car I've ever bought!
What does that look like for a monthly breakdown? The finance costs for $28K is $525 per month. The average car insurance is $130 per month (US News). The average fuel costs are $100 per month (1,000 miles per month, 35 MPG fuel consumption and a fuel cost of $3.50 per gallon). Finally, the average maintenance costs are $25 per month (Consumer Reports). That cost goes up as the car gets older and doubles after the car is 10 years old, according to Consumer Reports.
Add it all up and that's $780 per month. Now ask yourself, with those costs are you really surprised to hear the young are falling out of love with cars?
The average sale price is skewed by people choosing luxury purchases by buying larger (and fancier) than necessary vehicles. Also can be skewed by vehicles lasting longer in the first place, meaning poorer people do not need to buy cars as often, but richer people can choose to buy cars more often.
That still leaves you paying a little over $600 per month. From that point as you start lowering your finance costs you're going to increase your maintenance and aggravation costs.
The idea that cars are only reliable for 5 years and 60K miles is, IMO and IME, quite out-dated. That was more true in the days of carburetors, points-based ignition, and mazes of vacuum lines. A modern (meaning post-1996 at least) electronic fuel-injected car with electronic ignition and closed-loop fuel control tends towards very reliable for 15+ years and 200K+ miles.
They're very reliable.
They're also not for sale.
There's a famous economics paper on this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
Used cars are an example of information asymmetry. If someone has a "bad" car they'll want to sell it. If they have a "good" car they'll want to keep it. Especially if both cars have the same market value because the buyer can't distinguish between the good and bad cars.
Myself and a few of my friends drive exclusively Honda/Toyota and drive them to 200k and then sell them to people who know how to do their own car work.
A few of my friends are from well off families and they buy cars brand new and drive them to 60-80k and then act like the car isnt reliable anymore for some reason despite the fact that I usually buy my car with 60-80k miles on it.
* all distance here is miles sorry for confusion
Prior to the 1980s, very few car makers used galvanized steel. After the 1980s, most cars are galvanized, meaning they'll stay structurally sound in the snow belt far longer than before. (They'll still show some cosmetic rust long before becoming in any way unsafe.)
That said, with my 1997 Honda del Sol that I got rid of a few years ago, the mechanics at the dealer took to coming over and looking at it because they said there were very few on the road any longer because the wheel well rusted out. (I had garaged mine in the winter for a number of years.)
About five years ago my mechanic told me there was a Lexus I needed to look at. Single (obsessive) owner, extremely low miles for the year, extremely clean, my mechanic had done all the work since the time the vehicle was no longer under the Lexus service and warranty.
The catch? It was over 10 years old. That's when I learned you can't get a loan for a car that's over 10 years old. I had the wherewithal to pay cash (it was over $10K for the car, but it was a steal!) but that's not something young people are going to be able to do.
All of these cars ended up with significant markups over MSRP due to COVID and some (e.g. type R) are still massively marked up.
Used car prices have really went nuts since mid 2020 though, well beyond what can be normalised out. I'm not sure that's long enough to explain the phenomena on it's own, it certainly started before young people wanted to buy cars in 2021, but if you're looking for where it got more expensive for young drivers the very recent used car price explosion is it.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2017/article/teen-labor-force-p...
But I literally could not have done my first job without being able to drive to job sites. And I couldn't really have worked at the next company in an office park either. To say nothing of countless recreational activities and vacations I've done that required me to drive.
I've spoken to friends with teenagers and they've told me their kids aren't excited about getting a driver's license but understand it's a probably a practical necessity.
To me your statement logically is worded something like: "I require a car because I require a car"
But, yes, there are also many company locations out in suburban office parks that are generally not accessible if you don't have a car.
Even if I had a company car, I'd still have to be able to drive. Lots of jobs require being able to drive.
A great many teenagers will be in situations (especially after college) where they want or even need to drive a car. So it makes sense to "encourage" them to get a driver's license before there's an urgent need.
The actual problem is two-fold: parents who enable this dependency by offering rides and don't charge rent; and the daughter who evidently has no personal need whatsoever for a driver's licence. If she doesn't want a job, why would she care that she can't drive to one?
If they're planning on becoming a lifetime Manhattanite who rarely leaves the city sure. (Substitute international locations.) Sure.
But I think parents insisting that not being able to drive is a poor life choice for a bunch of reasons--that they're not going to support through driving their kid around--seems pretty reasonable.
Strictly in terms of employment (and even job interviews in my experience) the ability to rent a car, even if not owning a car, is pretty common.
"The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed."
When they wanted to drive, then they'll learn to drive with great passion.
Now that it's become clear that services like lyft/uber are unsustainable at their current prices, the days of cheap taxis are numbered. Soon, unless you live in an urban center (or university), the only choices will be: drive yourself or walk.
I wish bikes were among the viable alternatives. But with their theft wildly out of control, pedal pushing just can't become a mainstream alternative to cars.
walk is actually fine as well
Nederlands has a lot of cycle infrastructure and is mostly flat so it's very convenient to ride. But lots of people still drive for all the usual practicality reasons.
If you have no vehicle whatsoever and you need to get one, you're looking at $500-$600 per month in total costs to get something that's reasonably reliable. As I noted in another response those costs don't even include parking. I also didn't account for things vehicle registration costs and emissions testing costs. It all adds up to make vehicle ownership quite expensive. I'm not surprised at all that young people are re-thinking the premise of owning a vehicle.
So while I'm sure costs today have pushed people who were on the fence, there are so many other things to spend money on now. And cars are just...boring.
There are cheaper new cars available, though. You can get a little penalty box like a Mitsubishi Mirage or Nissan Versa for much less.
As one data point, the 2004 Corolla LE's MSRP of $13,570 is $22,063 in 2023 dollars. The 2023 Corolla LE's MSRP is $21,550. And that's a larger and more featureful car.
Used cars are still really expensive though.
So it's gotta be partly because preferences have gone towards trucks and SUVs that are not only larger, but more expensive.
If you look at cars/1000 people though the US is top with 890 sure, but New Zealand, Canada, Finland, Austrailia, Poland, Italy are all above 750.
France, Germany, UK, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Japan are all above 600.
Switzerland especially is often cited as a great example of how a well run public transport system works, yet 82% of people have a car
I'm in my mid 30s, lived in 5 different countries (incl. UK, Austria, Poland, Portugal) and use a car perhaps 4 times per month (cab, when I'm feeling lazy).
Again, I put the emphasis there for a reason: I'm not saying that we don't need cars _at all_. What I'm saying is that we need _much fewer_ cars and there are many people like me. When I need to take a longer trip, I rent a cab. It costs me a fraction of what I'd need to pay if I drove.
Owning a car is a bit like watching TV vs. YT/VoD: it's partially driven by habits (also generation, culture, social status). I'm not speaking in absolute terms here. With better infrastructure we could reduce the need even further.
These include countries with very good public transport. Japan, Switzerland etc.
You are very much in the minority.
I know so many people, even in places like London or Vienna, so with extremely good transport systems, who bought expensive cars because that's what most people in their families do. Sometimes it's a status symbol, sometimes a pattern people fall into due to upbringing. It's similar, although not identical to people in their 20s or 30s owning a TV set yet spending most of their screen time on their phones or laptops.
And, again, this is not a binary issue. The point I'm trying to convey here is that:
1. cars are useful, but
2. it's perfectly plausible to have a _significantly smaller_ amount of cars than we do and it would be a net improvement
3. with improvements in both transport systems (3.1) and _also_ education (3.2, also sic!) we get more people closer to 2.
4. 3.1. and 3.2 can be done in parallel, which means that now, more people than we think _don't_ need cars
We're not there yet but were getting there.
> You are very much in the minority.
Of course, what made you think I implied otherwise? I feel like our discussion started with a big misunderstanding of each other's opinion earlier in the thread.
it is possible to get out of it in certain areas, usually cities - but even if one manages, they still have to pay the cost: not just the financial burden, the health problems, but also the reduction in safety (especially for kids) and quality of living. vienna has excellent public transport and the car ownership rate is less than 400 per 1000 inhabitants. of those 400, how many are necessary and how many are just out of convenience?
as for my (austrian) country-dwelling extended family: every adult owns their own car, but i'd estimate at least every second car is not strictly necessary.
This. I think what got lost in translation in the discussion between iso1631 and me is that we read the phrase "we don't need cars" differently. We need cars because we're making ourselves need them more than we should.
This.
Thank you, 50+, living in Germany, never owned a car (have a drivers license), never going to own a car.
When friends say "we need a car" they mean that they moved outside the city in a big house but want to go to the city every day and drive their children to a sports club every second day. Sure they "need a car". It's like I go diving and I "need an oxygen tank". Yes, sure, if you go diving.
Or maybe a reflection of higher expectations? Housing, healthcare, and vehicles are all examples of things that both cost more and are much more advanced than the same version previous generations had.
Also young people are living in cities more than previous generations and those cities are denser. The value prop of a car, price aside is less than it was for previous generations.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4518-Rosedale-Ave-Austin-...
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1339-46th-Ave-San-Francis...
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/677-Harmony-Ln-Ashland-OR...
I'm not sure about the exact causes, but at some level it has to be supply and demand, I agree. Maybe just growing population. Certainly the bay area is, in my opinion, very over-populated.
It's a magical physical location, and there's too many people that want to live in it, for it to be pleasant.
(Though the horrible government also isn't helping.)
Advice to younger generation: forego that shiny toy and invest your hard-earned money.
[Zoomers stop spending money]
economy collapses, boomers investments go negative
Boomer: No, not like that!
And, yea, I know you're Gen-X from your other post, but you're talking like a Boomer at this point.
I don't doubt the average new car price could be 47K, but averages are pushed up by the very expensive ones. And today there are a lots of cars at the very high end over 100K which skews the average.
Regular cars (entry-level Honda/Toyota/Mazda/etc) haven't gone up much, probably about tracking inflation (would be nice to see a graph for e.g. an entry level Mazda 3 (323) MSRP vs. inflation over the years).
But, I see it differently as far as long-term trends. I'm actually surprised at how stable new car prices have been, while the quality and capabilities have been expanded. Let's consider two benchmarks, because these are ones I've thought about before. I'll consider a two decade period from late 1990s to late 2010s, so also ignoring the recent pandemic market distortions.
One is a practical economy car, e.g. Toyota. The other is an entry-level, all-wheel-drive luxury/sports sedan, e.g. Audi.
A 1997 Corolla at $14k compared to a 2017 Corolla at $18k (28% increase).
A 1997 A4 at $28k compared to a 2017 A4 at $38k (35% increase).
But, this ignores that the newer cars were up-classed and almost competed with their larger sibling models from twenty years before. The 2017 Corolla and A4 were nearly as big and well equipped as the 1997 Camry and A6, respectively. To try to stay at more similar size, power, and features, consider a lower model class for the later time period.
A 1997 Corolla at $14k compared to a 2017 Yaris at $16k (14% increase).
A 1997 A4 at $28k compared to a 2017 A3 at $32k (14% increase).
During the same time period, other living expenses like housing, health insurance, and energy pretty much doubled for me in California. The median US household income also grew from $37k to $60k (62% increase) in this same time frame. So, I see the new car market as having significantly "beat inflation" in a practical sense.
Safety/pollution laws have made small cheap cars non-existent. You cannot buy anything like those 2004/2005 cars on the market today, the cheapest featureless models have mostly disappeared.
Seemingly while building the digital world that we both live in, you are missing the ramifications of the monster you created. Before the digital days I bought and sold a number of underpriced items effectively doing difficult in person arbitrage. If I wa willing to find things like cars cheap, I could make money buying them and selling them to/at dealers for more. You and I have effectively destroyed that market. Sellers of those items now can effectively make far more by understanding how much their car is worth and selling it direct to market. And, in the cases where the seller is underpriced, digital buyers monitoring the market quickly and efficiently buy up these underpriced items. This is true true for almost any investment item, there is really far more money than good investments these days which leads a huge portion of investment to be pure luck.
As young person who has fallen out of love with cars (despite once having earned my money driving): It is not as simple as that.
Money plays a huge role for sure, and the more you live in an environment where cars are needed the more this is true. But living in a big european city I can assure you that for most people my age not owning a car isn't a thing you do because you couldn't afford one. The benefits of owning a car just don't outweight the cost of having to constantly think of caring for it.
Most of my daily mobility I can do on foot and with a bicycle, with the benefit that my commute takes half the time of a typical rush hour commute for the same route. I need a car if I need to transport something which is roughly once every 3 to 4 months and then renting one is a good option.
I honestly have trouble imagining a happy life without a vehicle. It enables me to go places I want to go, where there is no public transportation nor would I want there to be.
On top of that, there's the utility of being able to build things like homes and shelter.
To me, it does not imply using a car as much as I do now and simply paying more to rent instead of owning.
"A lot of us dont need cars"? what an biased onesided view of the world, how travelled are you? Because outside of your soy latte zones vehicles are a huge need for day to day life.
I think what you mean is that enough Americans are stupid enough with money to pay 47k$ for a car (or worse, a 15mg truck/jeep), plenty of $15-25k cars exist, 45k$ cars just look cheaper with 5-7 years financing.
As I responded in other comments, my calculation didn't even take into account for parking, registration, and vehicle emissions testing costs. Young people are looking at the delta to their monthly expense outlay for getting a car and it's quite considerable.
Have you compared to how things used to be? These numbers all seem to assume that it used to be much cheaper relative to income. That seems like a rosy look at the past but the numbers don't support that assumption.
Yes it would be dumb for a young person to pay 47K for a new car! (I'd say it's financially dumb for any person of any age, unless very rich, to pay 47K for a depreciating car.)
Since when do young people (on average) buy new cars? Aside from wealthy families, that was never a thing.
My first car cost $500 in 1988 was 20 years old with the floorboard rusting away so the road was visible through the floor while driving. And a starter that didn't work so it had to be push started every time. That's $1264 in todays dollars. That doesn't buy much, but I see a handful of beaters on craigslist that can be had for that money, and most seem nicer than the rusted beater I bought for $500.
My first new car (nothing fancy, a Mazda) cost 42% of my gross salary at the time.
A Mazda 3 can be had for $23K today, so at a similar price proportion a $55K salary would feel the same as when I bought.
So, none of it feels proportionally more expensive than 30+ years ago.
I think what is different today is the very high end of the market has grown a lot. There are endless cars over 100K whereas back in the 80s the list of hyper-expensive super cars was a very short one. Maybe this twists the perception of the market.
But the basic beater cars and new Toyota/Mazda/Honda/Kia-level cars are about as affordable as they ever were.
In the past 3 years they've gone up an extraordinary amount, so I have some doubts on that.
I was a teenager in the 90s and would help out at a friend of my dads car lot. As a benefit they'd let me get first grab at the 'cheap beaters' that came in the lot, and before I even had a drivers license I had bought and sold around 20 cars. Things are significantly different now when looking back. First is inspections/insurance. Most of those cheap beaters back then you could buy would be in no way road legal now. At best they are parts, or you're spending thousands getting to the point of passing inspection.
Then you add in Craigslist, which is also a major change in how car buying works. Don't think of this as significantly different than how GPUs were scalped during the pandemic. There are numerous individuals that watch the common digital markets where cars are posted and quickly buy up any cheap deals, and turn them out for thousands more on a lot.
MSRP for a 2020 Toyota Corolla was $19,600 (these would've been for sale in the fall of 2019, so fully pre-pandemic pricing).
MSRP for a 2023 Toyota Corolla is $21,550. So that's a $1950 increase (~10%) over three years. So it'a noticeable increase for sure, but I wouldn't call it extraordinary given the inflation of recent times.
(Also, your calculation doesn’t include depreciation, which people don’t often think of as a cost, but economically it absolutely is.)
That's more than I've spent on buying, taxing, insuring, MOTing, and repairing every car I have owned since I passed my driving test nearly 30 years ago.
We live in an age of ubiquitous information. It has never been easier to learn how to repair things. Why would you pay more than most new cars cost, when you could pick up some shiter for a few hundred, run it until it breaks, and then figure out how to repair it from a couple of youtube videos?
In this thread and IRL it seems people are deathly afraid of a car breaking down. When I bought my most recent car (2001 Corolla) people were like “ooh what if it breaks down”. Wow, IDK, maybe I’ll fix it? Or maybe I’ll junk it. Still cheaper than buying a newer car. And it’s not as if newer cars are immune from problems. If anything, newer cars seem both less reliable and less repairable due to the ever increasing complexity. The cost to repair the CVT transmission in a 2017 Subaru is twice the cost of my entire car and their failure rate is through the roof.
I'd jump in that thing and drive it anywhere, at any time, in any weather conditions, for any distance.
This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. A £50 toolkit from the DIY chain of your choice and a couple of Youtube videos will get you started with at least basic maintenance like changing your oil and filters, and replacing brake pads.
> Right now it's winter and there is melted slushy ice everywhere. I only have street parking available where I live.
Yes. It sucks. No way but the hard way. I did a set of head gaskets on one of my Range Rovers during the Beast from the East in the driveway outside my house because I still needed to get to work. They went back on ridiculously clean because of the amount of time I spent inside cleaning them up and defrosting.
It sucks, but that's the way it is.
> It's not feasible for me to maintain my life while also going out on the street and trying to learn how to fix whatever issue went wrong
Yes it is.
It's like a credit card. They are easily misused, but there's not really a downside if you use them responsibly.
If you think about it, the prospect of getting a loan to finance some expensive vehicle that costs tens of thousands of euros/dollars and then paying loads more every month for insurance, taxes, maintenance, and fuel is not very appealing. Some people spend many hundreds of dollars of their own money every month on a thing that they arguably could do without. And then there is parking as well. Parking is not cheap in bigger cities. There are cities where you need a mortage to be able to afford to buy the right to have your own parking place.
If you add all of that up, you can free up quite a nice budget for alternative ways to get around. I use taxis/ubers when I need them. I walk short distances or use a bike (nice and its good for me). I can hop on public transport at a reasonable cost. Total cost for all of this per month is probably around 50 euros in a typical month. I have a lease bike that costs me 22/month. The rest is public transport and an occasional uber. I technically also have access to car sharing but I rarely use that. Price is similar to an Uber and Uber is more convenient for me.
So, that's my day to day travel needs covered. I don't need a car for that and here in Germany, even a really shitty old car would probably cost me way more than that. I could double or triple my uber usage and it would still be cheaper.
For longer distance, I take trains and the occasional plane. If I need a car, I rent one. Happens maybe a few times a year. Total cost for car rental would be at best a 1000-1500 in an average year (including fuel). I can't make a case for owning a vehicle to cover any of that. And I don't think I ever will.
For the future, self driving cars might add some more options and flexibility. Getting a self driving car to pick me up would allow me to be driven while I nap at night to some far away destination. Door to door service, private, comfortable, etc. No need to own a car for that. And that could probably be cheaper than a train/flight + hotel. Not that hard to build a business around having something like that with some luxury options. Why would you ever own a car if you can get something like that to pick you up to go wherever on a moment's notice? How often could you do that before it becomes cheaper to own the car? Self driving will turn car rental on its head. You don't go some place to pick up the car. You get picked up by the car.
This era is probably the sweet spot for reliable cars. Post 2010 cars have gotten extremely complicated both mechanically and electronically. Manual / slushbox auto transmissions are difficult to find, replaced with CVTs which are extremely unreliable and for some reason unrepairable (usually needing a full replacement), or DCTs which are slightly better but nowhere near as reliable as a manual or slushbox. And significantly more expensive to fix.
In 15-20 years the used car market isn’t going to look like it does today. Modern ICEs aren’t going to last. However, I’m looking forward to used electric cars as they age. The mechanics are much simpler which only leaves the electronics, and more people are going to become competent with diagnostics and repair in step with the popularity of electric cars.
I've exclusively owned vehicles from the time period. They've all been around 120k miles when I got them. They aren't any more reliable than any others. They've all had issues that caused me problems. Some of them have even been incredibly difficult to diagnose. I've never put more than about 10k miles on any of them. In part because I couldn't trust them to get my home
You look at all the cars within your budget and rule out red flags, for me it’s timing belts and CVT transmissions. Then Google the rest and look at the common problems.
> And even if you can is everyone supposed to buy those cars? This only scales for a small amount of peolle.
This is no different to anything else in life. People who do their due diligence more often than not end up in better situations. I don’t really understand what your point is here, that no one should do due diligence because it can’t work if everyone does it?
I was able to do my due diligence and bought an old Volvo, and we knew a mechanic who specialized in Volvos, but even if it's not an expensive repair like a timing belt, the repairs will still be more frequent. And I think this situation will get worse for the next generation as it's more common to have proprietary parts and tooling, drastically increasing the cost of repairs as time goes on (which also makes self repairs a lot more difficult).
Will also add.
- Why buy a new car when one cannot afford a proper home to put it in? - Why buy a new car when one cannot be sure about their job security? - Why buy a new car when there's less of a need to be in an office every weekday?
But wait it gets better. Some car manufacturers have come up with the innovative idea to require the car's owner to pay monthly subscription to "unlock" all the features of the car they bought.
Yes, why indeed are young people losing interest in cars.
In doing that, though, I've discovered that cars are kind of miserable! Walking, biking, and riding the train are all much more pleasant ways of getting from one place to another. I feel more engaged with the world around me and more active. I also have a little kid and feel much more concerned these days about car crashes (with cars, but especially with pedestrians).
So with all that, we're trying to form a plan to move to a larger city that prioritizes other forms of transit over cars. It'll be more expensive. Although maybe it'll all even out if we stop driving?
For comparison, back in December 2020 I bought a 2-year old Ford Focus with 13,000 miles on the clock for £11,500, my insurance is £25 a month, but my fuel is closer to £160 a month, for around 10k miles a year.
It helps that it's a 1 litre 3 cylinder engine (although still puts out a respectable 125bhp, which is more than enough with 6 gears for motorway driving) and on long journeys I'm getting 50mpg.
For a country that seems built around needing a car (unless you live in a city with decent public transit) it seems ridiculous so many people are now priced out of it.
But now, the young don't want to dedicate their lives to the car anymore. They have other priorities, other dreams. Maybe they prefer to let go of the car and eat good food instead of a cheap pasta diet, things like that.
I bought a 3 year old used car in '09 for $14500 for cash. Since then I've spent a grand total of about $3000 on repair and maintenance. My insurance is about $700 / yr. I spend about another ~ $650 / yr on gas. My total costs have been less than $2500 / yr all in.
You're also not accounting for the value of your time. My 30 minute commute to the office would turn into at least 90m on public transit. That's just one example. It's death by a thousand cuts. At even 1/3rd of hourly rate that most of us make, the cost in lost time is tens of thousands a year.
I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but only because I have an off-street parking space for it. Otherwise I'd go back to renting one on the ~monthly occasions I want to use one. The main benefit of Zipcar to me versus owning is that the car had a parking space that it went back into.
Now if only the mass transit system in the area wasn't falling apart and the rail connections to other cities were even half as good as the ones in the Netherlands.
Remember, this mess is trying to directly compete with just looking at a satnav and driving where it says with no extra charge, lost time, or mental effort.
Note that a large part of the above is I think transit agencies should try to get as many people as possible on unlimited ride family passes. Anyone with such a pass must find transit useful enough to use often anyway, and the pass means they don't worry about making one additional trip they just go.
But you should always strive to have everyone on an unlimited rides pass for their home zone. Anything else encourages getting a car for trips that could go either way and that in turn justifies a car for everything.
Additionally, all public transportation companies provide standardized service information including live updates (often required by the law). Any journey can be fully planned on 9292.nl.
I do hope there is an eventual push for an EU-wide NFC system for public transport, that would be pretty dope.
For my family it's not even about the physical aspect, but about time. I don't want to waste my free time going to and from places in 2x/3x the time it takes by car.
Fully expecting that comment, and I look forward to that person describing how they take an elderly parent to the doctor on a bike…
There are also options that cover the middle ground: Mixed mode (cab, train, cab) or car sharing. Certainly not available for all of us, but just as certainly available to many of us.
The primary issue is that the math only works out if you don’t buy/own a car, otherwise you‘ll have the majority of the costs of car ownership anyways. On a pure mile by mile replacement, the math doesn‘t work out.
There're a lot of other variables. Family/life situation, hobbies, health situation, visual (fuck video ads on public transit) and audio noise tolerance...
Obviously, the math I did for me works out for me. It likely will look different for you. However, I never pretended that the math works out for everyone - it doesn't. But it would work out for a lot of people if they were honest.
„If they were honest“ is a bad argument to be honest. If everybody would change their preferences, they may have similar math to yours :)
Of course, someone may run 20" wheels and then prices skyrocket. But then it’a no longer pure transit costs and more like an expensive hobby.
Needless to say I waited a bit for him to clear the neighborhood before driving off.
Had one back into me at a traffic light, with me honking, and then put it into drive and take off when the light changed. Had to have the cops drag him out of a medical building to get a report and his story went from “no accident” (at the scene) to me rear ending him (on the witness stand contesting his ticket), luckily I was hauling around a passenger who confirmed my side of the story.
Still don’t have a clue why he thought it was a good idea to put it into reverse and barely creep backward at a red light with cars all around him.
Additionally, bike infrastructure works great for mobility scooters too: https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo
[1] https://christianiabikesamerica.com/collections/all-models
We can all conjure circumstances when it is difficult or inconvenient to use public transit, but deep down we all know most people most of the time are driving their cars alone with minimal cargo and the reason they are driving is because our towns are designed to make it as convenient as possible.
I've used my bike trailer for groceries. You have to be careful that you don't buy more than fits, but it works.
Well, I live in The Netherlands and the place where I work is not very reachable by public transport. The 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague is all very nice and so on but even in the Netherlands people who live in a village will in many cases be somewhat isolated if they don't own a car.
Do you have idea how many Americans commute 37 miles each way, every single day?
But you're absolutely right that it's better to work in the same city where you live, so you can simply ride a bike to work.
But it does breakdown or be worse with slightly more complicated routes. Like I used to travel from smaller city to bigger city to other big city. And in the end public transport was probably 50% if not longer in time. First 15-20 minutes to station, then 45 minutes with local train. Wait for intercity, ~2 hours and 30 minutes or get lift to destination. Compared to straight 2 hours from door to door with car.
And this is with perfectly serviceable train network with plenty enough trains. Or at max capacity.
But this is not the majority of travel, and in those cases car travel is indeed overkill, and a hassle to boot, as anyone who has ever had to daily wrangle with parking lots and rush hour traffic can attest.
There are different concerns with public transport, but the advantages tend to outweigh the disadvantages, and it appears this is borne out by the data.
Driving has several advantages, but getting stuck in traffic is extremely unpleasant in ways that similar delays on other forms of travel don’t really replicate.
But you also don't have to take a 3 hour coach ride because the driver or other staff's union is striking. It's just you and your car.
Fuel taxes don’t even come close to paying for our road networks while rail is lumping all these costs together on a per trip basis.
If you want an emergency services vehicles to get to your house you need a road anyway.
If you want buses and coaches to function, you need roads.
If you want to transport a bootload of stuff more than three times a year you're financially better off paying for a car than renting.
If yor kids have school anywhere that isn't walking/cycling distance from your house, then you need a car, or two.
If you have a job, and don't want to be beholden to a very local employer, you likely need a car. Except if you live close to a train station and your job is close to another one. And except in the last five years, when some jobs can now be remote.
If you want to go anywhere that a train doesn't go, you need a car, probably. Which is everywhere outside of extremely high density urban areas that can afford an underground rail system.
You need any of those things to be true for a road to be needed. You likely need a car for all but the first two. Cars and roads are valuable. I don't see how that's debatable.
Trains are now location-specific optimisations where we know we have hotspots of usefulness, where it's worth laying track and having massive investment as enough people will use that route.
Just as a circuit-switched phone call is a better connection, but packet-switched is better overall, and cheaper, so are trains and cars.
You also have several objectively false statements here such as:
“If yor kids have school anywhere that isn't walking/cycling distance from your house, then you need a car, or two.” Except 100’s of millions of people currently live further than “cycling distance” from their kids school and don’t own a car.
Frankly cars didn’t exist until very recently and society was fine without them.
Now that’s not universal, but I really do budget 3-4 hours extra for some trips because holiday traffic is just that bad in my area.
But I have a problem. I'm an introvert and I get fatigued by constant human interaction. I also get fatigued by constant distractions. I really benefit from having some breathing space where I can zone out.
Saying it out load makes it sound reckless and inconsistent, doesn't driving require constant attention? But no, somehow I can zone out drive and drive to my destination completely subconsciously, at least if it's a route I know we'll, like on a commute.
I'm 39 now and I have never caused an accident for what that anecdotle evidence means.
My commutes are my decompress time. I can't do anything during them, and if I could, I wouldn't benefit the same way.
I was having a hard time NOT getting sweaty on my ride into work because humidity is the highest in the morning. And when I wasnt sweating I was getting rained on, or my hands were freezing, or I got chain grease on my pants.
Electric bikes are great, but other than price, it starts to blur between having an electric motorcycle. Especially after you need to don appropriate gear for the commute to stay dry / comfortable. And the motorcycle would have greater range and more use cases.
And at the end of the day, while riding a bike to work is great and I would encourage everyone to try it if they can, do you really think it works without a backup plan? Even people I know who have taking bike commuting pretty seriously didn't do it literally every single day.
I don't consider train travel to be lost time in the way car travel is.
If you're going from the Hague central station to Amsterdam central station, sure. Now plan a more typical commute from say the Hague Wateringen to the over Amstel industrial estate (It takes two times as as driving) Play around with real life scenarios. Say you're going from Amsterdam Osdorp to your work in Utrecht Lageweide. It takes twice with transit as if you were to drive even with traffic. Most Dutch people drive, especially those that can afford to.
That really depends on the amount of traffic jam you end up in.
It's true that not every route has a direct train connection, and there are definitely trips where cars are faster, but during rush hour around big cities, cars become a lot less reliable. On top of that, cars are only fast if you have access to parking on each end of the trip. Otherwise you still need to park somewhere else and take local transit for the final leg (which is definitely the preferred way to visit Amsterdam by car).
And on the ammount of leaves/snow/rain/wind/heat/strikes impeding rail traffic. Terrible traffic jams happen but let's not pretend the NS doesn't have a long list of excuses to run less or no trains or massively delayed trains. I can't count the number of times NS announced that they would stop running trains because of some weather where i had no issue driving home. On average driving is going to be twice as fast for most typical commutes.
But the kicker, I suppose, is that in my version you drive 35+ minutes and then need to work out, while the train version means I don't need to go to the gym. When I lived in LA I rode my bike and it meant being in great shape without ever having to work out, and I miss it, but of course it depends on the situation.
You have to make owning a car impossible. Take away parking spaces, block roads into the city, increase taxation.
A train is great for Rotterdam-Hague-Amsterdam, not so good for visiting the Bosch museum in 's-Hertogenbosch.
Holland has a great road system and parking everywhere. The perfect place for a car owner.
Part of the reason the Netherlands is the perfect place for a car owner is that so many people are able to go by bike instead, freeing up space on the roads.
Huh? There's a bike rental place on practically every other corner in most Dutch cities, and most of their profit is from tourists. You only need to show some ID and leave a deposit. Dutch people usually have a cheap old bike, or use the public OV bikes, for which you do need to register and get a card, but even that is possible as a foreigner, it just takes some days to process.
> visiting the lovely villages and other places Holland is full of is a time consuming exercise in futility unless one has a car.
I'm not sure where you're getting this from either. Intercity transport by train works great, and there are many organized bus tours that take you to smaller villages. You can easily see most of the country without owning a car, though it's a personal preference whether you enjoy using public transport or not.
I know you can get anywhere by public transport, much better than where I live. But going though tram-train-train (+even bus or a 3rd train) to visit some village that is less than an hour away by car, will multiply the transport time.
But just about every Dutch person we worked with had a car. They would meet us on weekends in villages, and most drove. Public transport is great in Holland, but cars have their place too. And unlike some countries close by, Holland has a well maintain and well designed road system. Its great for car travel.
Why not? Where are you trying to rent? There's bike rentals specifically aimed at tourists, and most people speak English reasonably well.
> A train is great for Rotterdam-Hague-Amsterdam, not so good for visiting the Bosch museum in 's-Hertogenbosch.
I just checked, and from Amsterdam, the train to that museum is actually slightly faster than a car. Though you do have a 15 minute walk at the end. Perhaps Den Bosch should run a bus line there.
That said, I would love to know why 's-Hertogenbosch is spelled that way. I asked a few locals, and none knew.
The first simply means "the forest", in slightly archaic spelling. The second is short for "des hertogenbosch", which is archaic for "the duke's forest". "Des" is archaic genitive that's barely used any more in Dutch except in a few phrases and place names.
's ochtends => des ochtends => of the morning
's avonds => des avonds => of the evening
's Hertogenbosch => the duke's forest
's Gravenhave => des graven hage => the count's hedge (also known as Den Haag / The Hague)
Disagree about parking, at least what I've seen in Amsterdam city area. You have to use an app and pay for parking. There are patrol cars that will dish out fines if you are caught. There are blue zones in suburbs which are free but it's mainly for visitors/residents.
First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles.
Public transport is rarely faster, not even in the most idyllic example that you give where you go from big city to big city. The thing you conveniently forget to consider is that nobody lives near the station of city A and then also works very closely to the station of city B. It almost always includes additional travel towards A and from B. Cycling, trams, buses, multiple stops in both directions. It adds up.
To illustrate how absurdly slow public transport can be, a personal example. I used to live directly behind a train station in a mid-sized city. Doesn't get much better than that, right?
Let's explore the commute to work, some 60km away...
I have to get up early and be there some 10 mins before departure to secure somewhat of a reasonable spot. Next, I'm on route to the first big city station. This route is slow, it stops 5 times along the way as everybody needs to connect to a big hub to get where they need to be.
I arrive at the hub, where there's a 20 minute connection wait to take the train to the big city destination. This route is longer but fast, no stops along the way.
I get out and have a 10 minute connection wait for the bus to take me to the place closest to work, after which there's a 5-10 minute work.
Total commute time: 2.5 hours single way. To move 60km. And that's living behind a train station and working at one of the countries' largest employers.
What works really well in the Netherlands is living within a cycling radius from work, every other option sucks.
They even pay the $100,000 fee for a 10 year permit to have a car, on top of 100% import tax. That's close to $175,000 just to own some tiny 3-cylinder car for 10 years.
Public transport took an hour to get to the office. A taxi was 20 minutes. I'd agree public transport isn't great by a long way. Riding a bike if I lived there permanently might have been better, even with the 32 degree heat.
Also, "live away from the city center and have kids" ignores that still 89% of people in singapore don't own cars, and no, 89% of people in sg do not "live near the city center" or "don't have kids."
And to say Singapore was built for cars is kinda funny. It has one of the best public transit systems in the world.
I wonder what car ownership would look like if there was no fee and taxes were much lower?
It's incredibly expensive to owns cars and people still pay.
That tells you how valuable they find owning a car.
I'm not one to discount the cost of a long commute, and I'm hopeful that more remote and flexible work options will make it so people have less time commuting. But people like to own cars because in most cases they can be incredibly useful, and ignoring that fact won't help people transition off them.
You're missing the forest for the trees. If you live in a mid-sized city in the Netherlands and want to limit yourself to a 1 hour commute by public transit, there are just as many, if not more opportunities than if you live in a mid sized city in the US like Richmond because the Netherlands is that much denser, and transit optimizes for commercial centers. The difference that in the Netherlands, you still have the option of commuting by car, whereas, in the US you'd have to move.
Conflicting ideas such as these crop up all the time. For instance, "commuting in a car is dead time, at least I can read/work on the train". A reasonable position at face value, but entirely useless to the person who finishes work at 17:00 and must pick the kids up from school at 17:30. The 30 mins car ride may be "dead time", but the 60 mins by public transport obviously doesn't work for them.
I would guess that the "rejecting car ownership" types probably have this as a subset of a broader philosophy where they've somewhat rejected wealth in favour of something else, or already have the economic freedom to make such a choice.
Public transport is one alternative but I think small personal transport devices are more promising.
That doesn't mean it's not viable to live in the middle, but I think these are some pretty good arguments why it's often preferable to live close to at least one partner's workplace. Obviously it's not going to work for everybody, but if you're thinking about where to buy your house, this may be worth taking into consideration.
> Whenever I've heard people make that argument, what they actually mean is "The huge house I want to live in I can afford if I spend an hour a day in the car...."
Or it's because it would require 3x-6x their income to afford to live anyplace closer. A major factor of employee shortages is exactly that. There are no homes within 50 mi (often much further) of that job that can be afforded with those wages.
We live 45mi out from a (until recently, inexpensive) US metro area and we require 4 incomes to cover basic expenses.
If Americans were okay with living in Tokyo sized abodes, then there would be sufficient density for sufficient housing and job opportunities to exist in a region that could support sufficient public transit.
Americans would be okay living in “Tokyo sized abodes” if they knew what that actually meant and didn’t assume all of Tokyo looks like Shibuya. One thing I’ll grant is that garages are rare, because they count as finished space for property tax purposes.
Tokyo is actually a great example of what a city without car-centric planning and free parking everywhere can be like and a perfect example of a “15 minute city”. It’s not only about transit, but what transit and walkability encourages. I lived there for 6 years in a very residential neighborhood, but I was still within 10 minutes walking of virtually any daily necessity, 5 or so grocery stores, dozens if not hundreds of restaurants, 3 public baths, one of which was a legit onsen, a few furniture stores, and even 2 aquarium shops. I’m trying to think of a counter example and I can only think of one thing that wasn’t a ten minute walk away: a movie theatre, although there were multiple within a 15 minute train ride.
Given the choice between a some of the shitty living situations I dealt with while living in the US, and an affordable, compact efficient apartment. I'll take the latter
I have friends who bought an apartment in a small town next to the city where the jobs are because they didn't have the credit score for anything closer to work.
This is the reality (and realty) people in the market for living space are currently facing.
Because even if I could, work is unstable, I can't keep moving.
Because I have a girlfriend, any move closer to work is further away for her.
Because my family and friends are here, and I need to take care of my parents.
- I don't have any meaningful control over where I'm allowed to work
- I don't have any meaningful control over where my spouse is allowed to work
- I only have a tiny amount of control over where I'm allowed to live (most of it prices us out, despite being above-average income)
- even if I do exercise some control, it can be changed or stripped from me by others at any time. (You may get laid off and have to find a new office. Or your office may move away from you -- when you are hired, the office might only have been 12 miles away, but later they moved the office so it's now 25 miles away)
- You may not always be allowed to move in response to those changes (you might not be able to afford to move your whole house every two years, when job situations for you/your spouse change. And if you have kids, doing this super disrupts any chance they may have at a social life via school)
- You may not even be allowed to change home or school locations. (Divorced people exist, shared-custody children exist and are in some places, the most common form of parenting in 2023, you might not be allowed to relocate your kids schools ever)
A lot of anti-transportation "15 minute city" idealists like to handwave away how incredibly complicated it is, to magically get your entire life to line up such that you don't ever have to travel medium-sized distances. That is an extreme luxury that most people will never have.
Otherwise you are spot on. If your company moves offices within the same city's MSA they assume you can get there. If they move office to a different city they will pay to move you.
Even that assumes you don't have relatively specific hobbies. Which I guess is true for many people, but it's highly unlikely that (for example) my preferred martial arts instructor and my preferred dance instructor are going to be within 15 minutes of where I live.
And of course, your girlfriend/boyfriend, if you don't live together.
Your rudeness aside, what I'm getting at is that I'll likely have to leave once or twice a day even not accounting for work. I live in a European city and get everywhere by car BTW.
And that's exactly why remote work should be the norm (for the professions where it is at all possible)
I think public transport is pretty good if you live in the Den Haag-Rotterdam-Amsterdam area. Which in America would be considered a single metro area. Something like 5 million people.
This is the third largest US city and one with comparably few major thoroughfares (compared to many other large US cities). It seems that it’s just really hard for public transit to beat cars at any distance.
Moreover, lots of people are constrained on where they can work and live. I think a lot of the anti-car rhetoric in America seems to assume everyone is a healthy, childless, young urban professional who aspires to live in the densest habitat he can find, and this is a very unrealistic portrait of Americans.
To be clear though, I would like to see more walkable places, and while "people over cars" is hopelessly vague and verging on ideology, I probably agree with some of what people envision when they make this statement. I think it would be great if our urban and semiurban environments had more, smaller shops and more safe infrastructure for bikes and cars. More separation of fast moving car traffic from side streets. Etc. But we have a loooong way to go before bikes or public transit are more practical than cars, and as others have pointed out even the most bike-friendly countries in the world still have high (and growing) rates of car ownership.
Cars are undeniably handy for all but some people in the densest environments, but we still need to take care not to overfit to cars.
São Paulo has more car than population, and has so many cars that their area summed is bigger than the area of all streets in the city.
It is so many cars that sometimes walking 1 hour to your workplace is faster than a car route where you can spend 2, 3 hours to go to a neighborhood next to yours during rush hour.
So many cars that the city became also the city with most helicopters, because as ludicrously expensive they are, for people that need to reach their workplace really fast (CEO, firemen, medics...) helicopters are good idea.
Situation got so bad that the government wants to heavily restrict the use of helicopters because private helicopters were causing literally airborne traffic jams along the normal traffic jam, blocking public services like police from moving to emergency sites.
EDIT: indeed I was talking about adults, forgot to make it clear. Still the percentage of cars to people in Brazil tends to be high. It is one of the reasons car companies love Brazil. There are historical reasons for that. Mostly politics related.
There are 286 million registered vehicles for a population of 331 million people.
And the US is the wealthiest nation in the world.
So if every single licensed driver went for a drive, they could invite all 26 million licensed Canadians to come down and use a spare car, and still have 22 million registered cars left over.
Edit: Did some quick checking. According to the national institute of statistics, São Paulo's fleet is about 8.8 million (this includes over 1 million motorcycles, plus all the busses, tractors, trucks, etc. Regular cars are 6 million). Population is 12.3 million.
No, you are confusing the Netherlands an a whole with cities like Amsterdam.
People refer to the latter as an example of walkable cities.
Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dutch drivers, but only because so many others leave their cars at home.
> Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock.
There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statista) of whom 65% drive (Statista), so an additional half a million would be a 10% traffic increase, which is probably not “gridlock”, but in any case I don’t see how this refutes the original claim that Netherlands is a car country.
It is like that for so many reform proposals. Heterodox economists (MMT or gold standard or anything really) will say "we ought to consider this evidence in making our economic decisions", and their acolytes on forums like this will say "If we adopt this reform, we will be able to solve all our problems, but it's just corruption and self-interested politicians who stop us". Voting system reform people say "The US is screwed by FPTP, if we adopted proportional representation we will depolarise and have a nice consensual politics", but people who study the politics of countries that use proportional representation don't really indicate that (I think in this case there are some political scientists who get close, but only by circularly defining perfection in politics as exhibiting the consequences of proportional representation).
Oh, I love "logic" like that. Another common example is: "the free market is the best economic system because the perfect allocation of goods in society is how the market does it."
People don't just commute to work. Millions of Dutch students commute to school and I expect a large majority of those will bike.
There are various other posts in this thread that also give statistics, and the number of car vs bike journeys is not so far apart.
In a country that famously has more bikes then people, the idea that if half the bike journeys converted to cars there would only be a ten percent increase in traffic is quite clearly ridiculous. Especially within cities bikes carry volumes of people that would overwhelm roads if those people used space-inefficient cars.
This isn't a reasonable interpretation. "the norm" only implies that it's the majority mode of transportation (in contrast with the anti-car rhetoric). This implies that other modes are not the majority, but it does not imply that those other modes are particularly rare.
> In a country that famously has more bikes then people, the idea that if half the bike journeys converted to cars there would only be a ten percent increase in traffic is quite clearly ridiculous.
I mean, I showed my math--feel free to point out where I erred, but just stating "it's quite clearly ridiculous" is like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting, "I can't hear you".
Having visited Amsterdam by chance after missing a flight to London due to NYC gridlock traffic, this was one of my first thoughts on arrival.
Your (roughly 130 km) journey would have been less fast had those people making their shorter distance journeys by bike got into their cars instead.
Your parent comment is saying the same thing. Stay inside the city, close enough to your office that you can reach it by a bicycle. Of course in that case you could say the rent you would be pay would be equally higher. Plus not every one can afford to do that(given school availability, and your spouse office has to be close by too).
On a net basis, its again the same thing. You just pay for your time with higher rents.
Not Just Bikes: "Rotterdam: the City Rebuilt for Cars": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ovt1EMULY
I was actually considering making the same point, but sarcastically: "B b but, when I was a tourist visiting the walkable tourist areas Amsterdam where tourists go, I didn't passively observe any locals needing a car!"
It's a mistake to think tourist/visitor experiences give you a good idea what it's like to live anywhere.
The mistake is people used to car dependence being unable to imagine any alternative, thus refusing to believe that it can be true.
Which is a valid default assumption, unless it's made clear the speaker didn't do that.
Especially in this case, where you have an actual Dutch person who lives in the actual Netherlands getting told they were wrong by someone who cites visitor experiences.
And if I can afford such life without a car, I'm all for it. But I don't know how.
Yeah, but we have 23 million bikes.
It's true that our public transport has been neglected. The privatisation of the 1990s was a bad idea in my opinion, and public transport should be run for the public good, not for profit. Like roads, it's part of the nation's infrastructure. And better public transport means less people on the road, which means less traffic jams, which will also mean better travel times for people who really do need cars.
The number of bike trips and car trips aren't that far apart (25% and 32%). Public transport still lags way behind at 3%.
What I and many other advocates in the US want is for anything besides cars to be even considered in public infrastructure and urban design. Living without access to a car is near impossible in lots of US cities.
The default is to design around the car, if bikes or pedestrians are mentioned it's tacked on as an afterthought.
An example I had just last night was my US city presented their first phase of the "bike master plan". Essentially the engineers told us they didn't want to maintain protected bike infrastructure or interfere with traffic. About half of the "improvements" they listed out were "sharrows", bike symbols painted in the travel lane. The other half were striped bike lanes with no protection from vehicles.
And this is in a city that's inherited some bike/ped/transit friendliness by the nature of it being built pre-war.
Good luck in the exurban sprawl, South and Sunbelt - you'll be lucky to even have a sidewalk, nevermind a bike lane on the 8 lane road. The car is default in the US.
For some trips, cycling or public transport really is faster than driving, but for others obviously not. The most important thing is that all three are viable options. Forcing everybody into only one of those three will hurt everybody.
Japan seems to have the least driving per capita of any wealthy nation (at least from the data I see), so maybe people should be using that as an example more, but I think a lot of people in the US really appreciate the physical protection that people on bikes often get in the NL (even if it isn't everywhere). It sends a different message about priorities.
In the US, even if you don't want to drive, that is often your only choice for most trips, whereas in the NL you can drive if you want, but it is easier to find an alternative. That is a 'car-oriented' mindset versus 'multi-modal transit' mindset. However, I am sure that the NL could still make many changes to reduce car ownership if it really wanted to.
https://internationalcomparisons.org/environmental/transport...
We're talking specifically about self-designated "anti-car" people. I doubt there are any surveys, so we're all just conjecturing, but the rhetoric I see definitely holds NL and Europe generally up as a car-less utopia. For example, the first post on r/anticar is titled "cities built for people rather than cars are so beautiful" and it shows an idyllic picture of a German street. https://www.reddit.com/r/Anticar/comments/mp6t4p/cities_buil...
> The amount of miles driven per capita in the US is twice as much as that of the NL. The percent of trips on bike is 25% in the NL vs 2% in the US. About half of all trips made in the NL are on bike, transit or walking. The other half of trips are made with cars.
I don't see how this is relevant? I don't think anyone in this thread disputes that cycling is more prevalent in NL versus US, and none of this refutes the toplevel claim that NL is a car country nor supports the anti-car rhetoric which suggests that NL is a car-free utopia. Like many "non-anti-car" Americans, I would like to see American transit become more multi-modal, but that's not what we're debating at present.
> However, I am sure that the NL could still make many changes to reduce car ownership if it really wanted to.
Sure (the obvious/extreme example is banning cars by legislation), but this seems circular, because we're implicitly interested in why doesn't the NL public want fewer cars (on the contrary, car ownership was increasing as of 2016)? Like in the US we can plausibly argue that Americans haven't experienced the Dutch cycling/pubtransit system and thus doesn't know what they're missing out on, but that's a much harder argument to make about the Dutch. :)
> Yeah, but we have 23 million bikes.
> (...)
> The number of bike trips and car trips aren't that far apart (25% and 32%).
Wow, that's a good point. But, is the number of bike trips compared to car trips growing, shrinking, or staying the same?
It's a bit of a long commute by US norms (I think average is 20mi, 32km) but not too crazy compared to what some people do.
I also found this plot interesting relating vehicles and GDP [1], though the data seems outdated compared to the first link.
I'd also guess, though I can't find the data, that the US is one the highest cars per capita rates in its cities. Outside of NYC and Chicago, there is a real lack of public transport infrastructure in most US cities.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... [1]
Let's compare your commute to work to a commute in the US:
>I have to get up early and be there some 10 mins before departure to secure somewhat of a reasonable spot. In the US, you have to be there at least 30 minutes early, because the parking lot will be absolutely packed, and the busses don't run on time, so it might get there too soon.
>Next, I'm on route to the first big city station. We don't even have this in the US. You would have had to already be in the city to get on the bus.
>This route is slow, it stops 5 times along the way as everybody needs to connect to a big hub to get where they need to be. In the US, this route stops the same five times, but also gets stuck in rush hour traffic, because we rarely have dedicated transit lanes.
I arrive at the hub, where there's a 20 minute connection wait to take the train to the big city destination. The connection in the US would be at least 30 minutes, if you're lucky it will be scheduled at 20 during rush hour, but the bus is probably late. Also, again, it's not going into the city, you were already there, you just need to get on a different route.
>I get out and have a 10 minute connection wait for the bus to take me to the place closest to work, after which there's a 5-10 minute work.
If you have to make another connection outside the hub, you're probably waiting at least 45 minutes, in addition to the bus being late. The closest bus stop to where you work is another 30 minute walk away, along a 45 mph highway with no bike lanes and a sidewalk that just randomly ends occasionally.
>Total commute time: 2.5 hours single way. To move 60km. And that's living behind a train station and working at one of the countries' largest employers.
In the US, this was actually entire hypothetical. The route just doesn't actually exist.
Hope this helps you see why we place NL on a pedestal. We know it's not perfect, but it's so much better than what we have. Unless you live in an incredibly small portion of the country, it's just not an option.
Drag your butt over to Google maps and punch in a route from Lowell, Leominster, Worcester or Taunton Massachusetts (outlying cities in the Boston area people many commute in from) to any portion of the Boston area just inside I95 but not downtown and eyeball the times.
The route exists in the US and the times are in line with his estimates.
That said, it's only useful for commuting. There are far too few trains after evening rush hour to use it if attending an evening event.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Ra...
Usage (totals):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usag...
Well. There's your problem.
The idea of travelling 60km to work is a very modern phenomenon. Like a lot of people you've built your life around car travel. It's hard to get back from that.
This makes any trip much more difficult. Anyway I had to have the car for work. I hated that thing and the consultancy job.
Because some people don’t live in Amsterdam or The Hague.
Taking public transportation will take me over twice the time, and that’s when there’s no outage or delay.
“But traffic jams!” I hear you say. Well, the % time in traffic jams is drastically less for me than the % time lost due to missing a transfer, a delayed train or a canceled train.
Traffic jams are annoying but not very common or large, and will only rarely cause me to miss an appointment. Also, you just use cruise control and wait.
Experiencing a delay, cancelation or missing a transfer is almost guaranteed for any trip I make, and this usually means waiting another 30 mins for the next train or bus, and trying to figure out what I need to do to get to my destination (finding alternative trains)
All while being more expensive and less comfortable than just driving somewhere. If it were (drastically) cheaper, I could convince myself to take the time loss. But it is not, it is literally more expensive to take the train or bus than to drive if you already own a car.
I used to wholeheartedly agree with this. I lived in a very parking-constrained area. Zipcar had cars with dedicated spots on random corners throughout town, which was extremely convenient! At least prior to 2020...
Then the pandemic hit, and the number of package delivery trucks skyrocketed, along with doordash, uber eats, etc. And also just a general decrease in people's willingness to follow parking rules and signs. In the final year of my Zipcar membership before cancellation, literally 100% of my rentals involved dealing with a blocked parking spot when trying to return the car. I just don't think Zipcar's concept is viable anymore.
Because some people, like me, find driving to be blissful and elating, and I will never not take the opportunity to do it.
Although as many of the other commenters noted, one reason that driving in some places in the country is doable is that many others choose alternatives, themselves made attractive by high quality infrastructure.
Subreddits like r/solarpunk, r/fuckcars, r/notjustbikes, along with the push for 15 minute cities are a testament that young people dont want to be in the grip of petrol companies or owning a car as they are not sustainable, cause traffic, accidents, and on and on.
You can get away without one, that is if you don’t mind sharing transit with violent junkies in any North American city. Transit can be down right terrifying to use these days.
=> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
Anecdotally, in Boston the MBTA is one of the "falling apart" systems. I could still rely on it to commute to my college / job, and the worst that has happened was sometimes being late due to delays. There are certainly a lot of sketchy people, but I have never seen someone attacked or have anything stolen or been harassed myself - then again I am a man and I'm certain it's different for women.
But more importantly, when living in Boston I never had to use the train. Only when commuting. Because when I lived in Boston everything was at most a 3 mile walk. Even in the really bad weather I could layer up still get places without public transit.
Now I'm in a less urban area but it's the same: I don't have a car and rarely end up using transit / Lyft. I do get groceries and things delivered though, but my job and everything else is within walking distance.
I still agree it would be a lot better if public transit was more reliable, but I think many people in cities can be well-off without a car. Not anecdotally I know that most of the college students in Boston don't have a car (especially because there is basically no parking...)
As you point out, when you can find all of life's necessities within a reasonable walking distance, the need to own a car is significantly diminished. That's the goal that "anti-car" activists are pushing for.
... that the Internet is dominated by the small niche of loud people who think other people want to hear their opinion. That's it. Anybody who is not deep inside the Reddit (and HN, for that matter) bubble can quickly appreciate how dissimilar the viewpoints on Reddit are from the real world.
Now, I understand your cynicism, but you'd be naive to believe that small pockets of change are not happening. But then again, what does a European know about European cities?
Anyhow, I found this somewhere on HN, I am certain you will enjoy the irony.
> everyone is preening, bragging, trying to seem better than you, claiming to have the moral high ground, or the only correct answer.
No, most people are not on Reddit.
Around 30% of households in Berlin do not own a car.
The "I like bikes and I bike everywhere" group is a small minority. I know, I'm one of them. As soon as it's even slightly rainy mine is the only bike in front of the super market (though I'm sure it would be slightly different in Berlin, or at least in some parts of Berlin). But if you looked at surveys, you'd think that driving your car to the super market would be the exception. People on reddit talking about how much they hate cars aren't representative.
I walked everywhere, but I saw people riding their bikes in the rain, in the snow, and all kinds of weather in between.
Now, I am not expressing that everyone shouldn’t own a car nor that people outside cities shouldn’t.
I am expressing that __young__ people seem to not want to own a car, with young people being predominantly in cities. Wanting to own, and having to own are two different things as well.
My claim appears to be incongruous to what other commenters seem to have assumed I meant.
Even in this small town (~2,000 people) in which I live I have almost no reason for a car. Everything I need is in comfortable walking distance... Other than family and friends who live in other places that I like to visit from time to time.
When I was young there was enough economic hardship around that people had to disperse to make a living, leaving those social ties I established all over the place. With the strong economy we've been living for a number of years one has been comfortably able to stay put; living a great life anywhere they want. Now everyone in your life is able to remain close. If I could walk to their homes, that would certainly remove the last reason I keep a car. The younger people have that option.
I wonder if that's what has changed?
"You will own nothing"...
Is it because of this intense fear of getting a job that was starting to emerge when I was young and seems to have really taken off since?
Something odd, that I haven't seen many folks talk about, is that a lot of jobs are tacitly considered "beneath them" for Gen Z who grow up in middle class or higher affluence families. This is despite the fact that their parents don't think this, but the kids see a lifestyle on social media and an expectation that they have set for themselves that is not realistic and refuse to accept anything less. My own teenager is going through something similar, and it's a huge argument every time we talk about her getting a summer job. The type of work I did (stocking shelves and later running a till at a grocery store) when I was her age appalls her, even though it was by my standards pretty easy since at least I was inside in the air conditioning while working during the summer.
At the same time, hardly anyone in Gen Z would dare utter any statement that might be considered to be classist, because many Gen Zers believe in some chopped up Marxist fantasy, and consider classism one of the deadly sins, saying that those jobs are beneath them and they think they're better than the kids who take those jobs would get them cancelled. But that's exactly what they're thinking. They all want to be YouTubers or influencers, not the person who works the drive through at McDonald's.
My generation was never exposed to that, we were exposed to Tommy the lawyer who got his start working the stock room at the hardware store and now drives a Porsche. The type of "instant" fame and money that kids get exposed to now just wasn't even in the realm of possibility for my generation, except perhaps sports stars. Even though the number of people who "make it" vs those who try is vanishingly small, a lot of folks in Gen Z seem to think being an influencer or a similar role is the primary career path they want to try for, and unlike something like being a sports star, it's less limited by outside influences and requires less genetic talent. Anyone could, possibly, be an influencer, even though very few people actually will become one.
Now, taking that job is no longer seen as a stepping stone, it's seen as giving up and admitting to yourself and the world you won't be able to hack it online. It's truly remarkable if you observe high schoolers, girls especially, these days and how much of their life is spent online vs with those directly around them. Social media is not just entertainment, it's one of the most important things in their lives, and their presence there is seen as a determinant for their future. This is a very different social zeitgeist than my generation grew up with, and I'm a Millennial, grew up with Internet and computers, but prior to the dawn of social media.
This isn't an economic issue in that sense, then, it's a social issue, a rejection of the type of work that most people in the US started with when they were that age. A drive through worker at McDonald's makes nearly $37k/yr if they work full-time at the starting wage where I reside now. That's more than many professionals made when they started their careers when I was a teenager, and it's more than double what I made starting as a shelf-stocker /inflation-adjusted/. It's not that the job doesn't pay enough to attract people who are starting out, it's that those people see it as a serious social faux pas to be caught working that type of job, it's an admission and acceptance of failure, rather than an admirable place to begin.
That said I kinda get the social media obsession, that was college for me and I was all in on the facebook parasocial queues (not liking someone's post that they KNOW you saw was an offense, and other crazy shit). For me it was ultimately a function of not having anything better to do. High school is supermax prison in terms of options, college is like minimum security prison, it's not really until you hit the realization that your decisions have actual weight in your life and you aren't just going to be pushed along by external forces that you start to grow out of that. High school ends and eventually becomes irrelevant, but good luck explaining that to a teenager.
I'd argue the income question is also part of the problem, the "mail room to executive" pipeline, if it ever really existed, has been completely broken. As you say, it used to be that person working the McDonalds drive through might be something big some day. Nowadays that's 100% assured to not be the case, McDonalds drive through is a dead-end job you do to stay alive until you can trade up to a different career path.
Can you expand on how you see these two statements as different conceptually? At least for folks in my generation, I don't think anyone harbored delusions that they were going to make it big by working at McDonald's, but it was seen as a way to get basic work experience and the benefit of a wage while you worked towards something different. The "mail room to executive" pipeline was always a fantasy, as far as I'm concerned, just due to basic math, there's a lot more mail room clerks than executives, so it in all probability won't happen to you. On the flip side, working a summer job provides you a pathway to pay for entertainment and a modicum of freedom so you can explore the world and figure out what you actually want to do. At least that's how it was seen when I was a teenager.
Nowadays the options for standard middle-class success are a lot more constricted. There is much less "freedom" and "exploring" unless you're wealthy, working at McDonalds will just get you an ultimately meaningless amount of money and experience that no one values, while sucking up your time. Even when I was in high school there was no time for "exploration" outside of academics if you wanted a positive outcome. You were either on the AP/honors track and going to college to be a "success", or you had a job/took normal classes and either couldn't afford college or were just coasting into mediocrity. I imagine it's gotten even more stark since I graduated, given prevailing economic circumstances.
I'd say the desire to be an influencer/streamer is also partially the result of that. Sure statistically most influencers/streamers don't make much, but there's at least the potential of freedom/success that doesn't exist with a McDonalds job, directly or indirectly; and the barrier to entry is low. It would be like if everyone's parents bought them a guitar/drum set and there was a social hierarchy based on being a rock star.
If I can be so bold as to link it into larger trends, one thread I've noticed is that in previous generations' countercultures, whether it was the hippies in the 60s/70s or grungy Xers in the 90s, there was an underlying assumption that the American Dream was vanity. That you didn't need all of that stuff and could "drop out", calling someone a "sellout" was a serious insult. You could always find a way to "get by" even if you weren't living large. Because during those times where the income/cost of living disparity wasn't so large, you probably could. Don't worry about prosperity, go become an assistant manager at Staples and spend your time on what really matters! Nowadays economics don't support that, so we have "hustle culture", where you're expected to "grind", and that's the superficially "cool" thing to do. Even if you're just hocking bullshit, make that money! Given the limited options available to high school students, it follows that being an influence/streamer, something they can literally do on their phone, is the only universally attractive objective.
That's the source of fear I mentioned earlier, being sold this idea that the only way to get a job is to go to college and if you don't 100% focus on college you won't make it. But there is nothing in the data to suggest that idea actually panned out. All signs point to young adults having a much harder time moving up because they didn't work in their youth to gain the experience necessary to navigate the waters of the economy.
So, if they are seriously trying to become an influencer, accepting any time commitment that doesn't further that objective and removes them from that social sphere effectively ends any chances of it happening. Additionally to the above, my teenager has admitted to me that she knows that influencers are time-limited with their success, it's something that really only happens when you're young, cool, and pretty, and shortly after you have a fall-off. They'd rather make the attempt while they're young and have a lot of anxiety around not doing it, and falling into mediocrity.
I am not interested in owning a "house", too expensive, there is little to no reason to strap myself with long term responsibilities.
I am also not interested in drinking, given all evidence on how bad alcohol is, I am not keen on destroying the only tool I have that allows me to live as well as I do. Unless of course you mean drinking for social reasons, which is another thing entirely but I don't do that either.
equity, retirement
It's a store of value, not an investment. The goal isn't to get rich. It's to not have to pay rent in retirement (yes, I know property taxes).
Having been a renter for the last 10 years, I'm sick of landlords dragging their heels on repairs (in one case I had to take a landlord to small claims court) and my monthly rent spiking 6-10% or else going up by a mere 2-3%, forcing me to lock-in longer term leases to save money.
Especially now that the wife and I are in the family formation part of our lives, buying a house in the suburbs is looking more and more attractive. More space, room to do stuff at home, a fixed-rate payment to plan around etc. But I'm assuming that doesn't apply to you at your current stage of life.
From a financial perspective, renting is great for staying relatively mobile, but if you're planning to stay in one place for more than a few years, buying is probably the way to go. Nerdwallet has a good calculator comparing the two with a couple of dozen factors taken into account: https://www.nerdwallet.com/mortgages/rent-vs-buy-calculator
I agree with you that at the end of the day housing is an expense, I'd much rather fund my retirement with stocks. Although once the kids have moved out downsizing might be able to net a few hundred grand more, but that's a decision for 30 years from now.
I get that a car is the only realistic option in the 'great outdoors', but anywhere even slightly dense, they're a pain to buy, to maintain, to drive, to park. If you want the fun of driving, go to a track. If you want to get around, there are often better options. Car ownership seem like an outdated aspiration, IMHO.
Cars are really just trash technology that has made city life worse.
Older generation have an emotional attachment to cars, and project a lot of virtuous attributes onto it (freedom, independence, wealth, ...). Younger generations just do that less. They accurately see what cars are.
The young have that luxury. They're not at that age yet where they need to capitulate to the cult of the car. Once you have children, the thousands of vectors pushing a family in all directions, car life in some burb is the only one that's financially affordable.
It's the other way around. Youth reject cars because cars are objectively shit. As people get older, options dwindle, aspirations get adjusted, and people submit.
I plan to retire (finances willing) in a walkable city, for just that reason.
Same argument at the other end of age spectrum. American children have no independence, only because cities are dangerous because of cars.
Having to own a car and drive it everywhere every day can be pretty miserable. Being able to afford owning a car and not having to drive it all the time is wonderful. Freedom of having an option to just go anywhere at any time is not something I ever thought I would appreciate so much before I had to get a car for security reasons. But it absolutely is a luxury as even mediocre public or commercial services will get you 90% of own car utility. And good public or commercial services can eliminate whole categories of car use cases.
As discussed many times past, including on HN, if you live in or near a major city, and in a country or area which prioritises goood public transport, you can get by admirably --even better-- without a car.
As soon as you move even a little away from the metropolis, and/or to somewhere that doesn't prioritise good public transport, access (at least) to a car becomes close to a necessity for many activities. This rule holds true in my direct experience in the UK, US, Switzerland, and Germany.
For example, in the US compare living in Denver to a small town a couple of hours' drive out in the sticks. Or in the UK, living in one of the major cities to virtually anywhere in the countryside.
Alternatives such as public transport, walking and cycling have always been gimped in favour of car traffic, lest the car driving populace complain.
Yes, obviously, cars are a necessity in more remote places. Nobody's taking away your cars.
Maybe this needs a shorthand. Just preface every discussion with "*not about you, fur trapper!"
Rubbish, these articles are nearly always written by and supported by the dominant voice in the mainstream media - young, liberal city-dwellers, who seem to have no concept that there is a huge part of the population who are funding their "progress", often at the expense of their own infrastructure and quality of life.
But whenever I can avoid driving, I prefer to do that.
I don't buy furniture every week. Nor building materials. It's cheaper for me to rent a car for those occasions than to maintain a private car 24/7 for that.
Cars being necessary for some tasks does not mean it's necessary to own and garage one they will sit idle most of the time.
I also wonder if it is truly cars or just driving that is out of favor? If so, will full self drive fix that if and when it ever arrives?
Also if you're planning to have a family, a car is essential. Herding children on packed public transport is a no-no. I can imagine it being easier to walk with children if you're living in high trust communities where all amenities are available within walking distance, but that might also be a wealth thing too.
Is your argument that those national statistics are being driven entirely by changes in rich cities?
That the changes in driving habits have been so large that it drags down the bottom 60%.
The article says that in 1997 43% of 16-year olds had a driver's licence but by 2020 it had fallee to 20%.
Since you're claiming that's entirely driven by the richest 40% let's do some simple math to quantify the implications of your claim.
If richest 40% of 16 year olds had 0 driver's licences... Not a single one in the entire country... Then the national rate would have fallen to 25% not 20%. So the richest 40% must actually have NEGATIVE driver's for the math to work out on your claim.
Or maybe it isn't just a phenomenon limited the rich places.
I'm generally handy and usually perform my own maintenance on my vehicles. As such, I tend to drive 10-20 year old Japanese vehicles. I remember once when I confidently told my partner that I'd swap their burnt out headlight bulb, no problem. Imagine my surprise when I found out that a 2010ish GM sedan recommended taking the front bumper off to access the headlight housing.
If every little thing that goes wrong requires a multi-hundred dollar maintenance bill at a minimum, it's no wonder people want a viable alternative.
In fact, it should probably be no surprise that Toyota and Honda typically fill out the entire top end of the "easy to maintain" spectrum, and American and European brands the other end.
You don't wanna have to work on 10lb of shit in a 5lb sack no matter who's badge is on the grill.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/11/3/our-self-impos...
I assumed it was because countries like India and China are following different trends - lower initial car ownership rates, more two-wheelers on the road, but a growing middle class.
Among teens, their basic needs are often already met by their family, teens are less likely to work than a generation ago, and a lot of their interaction is online anyway. Teen physical independence dropped for other reasons and the appeal of cars went with it.
For adults I think you're right about only high income people being able to live in neighborhoods with close amenities, but also reliance on delivery services, Uber/Lyft are also ways that high income lifestyle can make you dependent on cars while not owning one yourself.
/well dating me does cause me to question her decision making ability now that I think about it heh
I never felt the same way, and I think a large part of that is that I grew up with the Internet; I could always AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) my friends or use ICQ. I was always connected even during an era of dialup. With the always-on functionality of modern phones, I’m sure that feeing is much more magnified. This doesn’t surprise me and I hope it drives a much more efficient future.
This assumes the public transportation is competently run, which is a rarity in the Anglophone world. In the UK I think the only good one is TfL.
Meanwhile Birmingham has a million people and no metro.
The one time I visited NYC the subway seemed third world.
Sure, there are plenty of areas where it would be really difficult. But there are also a lot more places than just London where it's perfectly possible, depending on family circumstances and lifestyle choices.
Two big differences in country design:
- in the UK, I felt like I could get to any town by transit. I imagine that isn't strictly true, but compared to the US, where I live in a half a state that's entirely devoid of any trains... big improvement
- UK cities are walkable, that is you can generally get anywhere just on foot. In the US cities I've lived in, downtown generally supports foot traffic, but as you get further out the sidewalks disappear, get scarier, and never have anyone walking around then.
You literally just drive around for 5ish minutes and you find a spot. Ive lived in two major cities in america fwiw.
* circling the block over and over until you find a spot.
* making sense of the layered rules on parking signs to make sure you can park
* finding the parking stall and/or downloading the app to pay for parking.
* making sure you have no valuables visible and each car ahead and behind have enough space to get out.
This is experience based off living in DC, NY, and the Bay Area. I’m actually OK paying for a car - but I have an absolutely no time for parking and traffic.
Just an anecdote to cancel out your anecdote.
1. Spend thousands of dollars a year on gas, whether you want to or not
2. Buy auto insurance
3. Pay for routine maintenance like oil changes and brakes
And none of this is by choice.
I hate cars. Yet I am forced to own one in order to live.
Teenagers here have no need to have a license or a ride from a parent to meet up with their friends. The level of independence is totally different, starts earlier, and is way safer.
And fat, out of shape, with health problems that are normally associated with older people. I'm astounded at how many 20-somethings I've met who complain about knee and back problems.
But then the Internet become a thing. For some of us sooner rather than later (I started earlier, as a tween, doing FidoNet and running a BBS). That shift online came with a tremendous increase in seat time in front of the computer.
So now I'd have to throw the kids out of the house and lock the door behind them, or they'll happily park in front of their computer playing games, watching YouTube, texting with friends that are literally across the street.
No wonder young people no longer see the car as freedom, they've lost the interest in even leaving their house, much less driving into the wilderness to take a hike or see the stars, etc. Sure, not all of them, but there is a very obvious pattern. And older generations aren't immune, of course, the allure of sitting on your butt in front of a computer screen appeals to all ages. But the older generations started with more habitual roaming habits.
Going outside the house was boring because all of the fun things I wanted to were too far away or off limits.
I knew a lot of people through my parent's church. This seemed to be a pretty common experience.
I'm an older millennial but enjoy living in a community where I only have to get into a car a couple times a week, but can spend the reset of the time walking or biking around my community.
Cars are dangerous to both pedestrians and cyclists. They make our streets noisy, our air polluted -- even electric cars shed particulates from their tires and their brakes. Cars require extensive amounts of parking, which is ugly dead space which contributes to sprawl.
"In 2017, the average amount of time people spend commuting with public transit in Toronto, for example to and from work, on a weekday is 96 minutes. 34% of public transit riders ride for more than two hours every day. The average amount of time people wait at a stop or station for public transit is 14 minutes, while 10% of riders wait for over twenty minutes on average every day. The average distance people usually ride in a single trip with public transit is 10 kilometres (6.2 mi), while 25% travel for over 12 kilometres (7.5 mi) in a single direction."
How would these numbers look like if we had more dense walkable neighborhoods? No need to speculate, simply look at similar statistics from places like Montreal.
It seems like high density developments are a thing in the GTA: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/07/gta-communities-worry... and like everything else they are not without their own problems.
I grew up in a single-family home, and also spent a year in an apartment in France as a kid and while it was more walkable...it wasn't better or worse - it was just different.
People have choices, if they want to live in a more walkable city, they can relocate to one. If enough people vote with their feet, the cities will have to adapt. It seems like the people living in the 80% single-family zoned areas of Toronto are not unhappy/inconvenienced enough with the state of things to leave.
A big problem is also unfamiliarity. People aren't used to it anymore.
Two factors to make dense housing acceptable
1. Larger units
2. Mandated recording booth quality soundproofing between units
How could they be? They externalize all of their noise and traffic to the denser neighbourhoods. And the people living in denser areas are subsidizing the immense amount of roads and public infrastructure consumed by those suburbs. They are having their cake and eating it too.
I may not be able to afford moving to a nicer place, but I can sure complain about it!
14 minutes average waiting time? How often do they come? Every 30 minutes? In a large city, that should be 10.
But it's nice to have a license so you can rent a car if you really want to.
I'll give the benefit of the doubt and just assume a different life experience, and not just hyperbole.
But if they're living on $30k in NYC, do they share their home with one or more roommates? Could they handle a $500 unexpected expense or would it devastate them?
At some age you want to be able to live life a bit more comfortably than in your early 20s, say.
When I moved to NYC, I was able to get a very comfortable apartment outside Manhattan but still very convenient to subway lines, and my rent (by far my largest recurring expense) was lower than I had been paying in my first job out of college 7 years earlier. Sure I had a roommate, but 7 years earlier I had was living with my S.O. Why do we automatically assume that a roommate == lower comfort of daily life than living with an SO?
In my case, I was unquestionably more comfortable in my 30s in NYC than in my 20s in the suburbs in a single family home.
I haven't lived there in a long time, but I lived in Brooklyn both with and without a car. The car rarely added any convenience and was a royal pain in the ass to find parking for. If not for the fact that my job was in CT and I ended up moving there, I would have sold it.
However, everywhere else I've lived, life was much easier with a car.
I loved playing Game Boy or reading a book on my way to and from work. Getting around the neighborhood by bike was wonderful with the LA weather. Occasionally I would go somewhere that needed a car such as off to the mountains to ski, so I would ride with my friends who were joining. If no one owned a car, I’m sure we could have rented. I also once got staffed down in OC for work, so I talked with someone on my team and coordinated carpooling with them, which allowed us to use the HOV lane and improve the horrid traffic situation. My coworker was happy to go out of their way to pick me up in exchange for HOV access.
I’ve since lived in big Texas cities and have been able to also live without a car, but I find it much more difficult because there are zero viable public transit options. LA’s public transit is nothing to write home about, but it is usable. You just need to have a good attitude and plan your life ahead of time. Ride sharing and rentals can fill in the rest.
To your point, LA became much more affordable when I got rid of my car. My situation was not perfectly replicable by all, but I do think the issue of car ownership and getting around without one isn’t an all or nothing affair for every citizen. In my situation it worked. For others, it would not. It would be great if more cities simply allowed for the option of getting around without a car and invested in alternative modes of transit. Ideally for me, I’d have a car that I would use for some errands and take public transit for others.
Not necessarily so.
I live 2 minutes from two tram lines and two bus lines.
I live 4 minutes from a train station with a train every 15 minutes.
It takes my 12 minutes door to door to the central train station and 25 minutes door to door to a 2nd tier European airport with excellent world wide connections.
I'm a member of a car sharing cooperative with about a dozen cars within 10 minutes walking distance. I don't think that I rented one in the last two years because I just didn't need a car.
And all this has really nothing to do with my financial situation. It's just that owning a car with public transport connections within walking distance would not add to my mobility in any reasonable sense.
Personally, I am walking 40 minutes each way to go to work, or uber in the morning and walking in the afternoon. It's not that I can't afford a car. I am just not interested in owning one.
Also, I'm pretty sure that many "anti car" teens still know someone, like their parents or a friend, that owns a car and can help them out occasionally.
Sure there are those who cannot afford a car, but that isn't what the article is about.
The value of having and maintaining a car is directly tied to whether you need it to perform the activities you enjoy. I enjoy taking my dog on hikes outside of NYC, so I pay the exorbitant cost of parking ($650 per month on the upper east side) to have a parking spot. If I didn't have a dog, I wouldn't have a car in the city. This is despite the fact that I personally love cars having owned a number of Japanese sports cars.
The focus of the article on climate change activism and urban planning is somewhat political, but I think it gets it right in the end: "Several studies...have concluded that driving habits that are formed in youth seem to persist...even into their 40s."
This is exactly it. I grew up in a relatively remote area of Southern California and became accustomed to driving-in for school, to see friends, to take my dog on hikes, etc. Those experienced have formed a positive association with "owning a car" despite the displeasure of driving around looking for parking.
Obviously I pay more than $3k/yr after you include other expenses but still, few are buying that much fuel.
I used to take the train when I worked downtown and @$350/mo or $4200/yr for a pass (which also covers the subway and buses) it's basically a break even vs driving.
Medium distance rail and bus needs to get a hell of a lot better for it to actually be cheaper for the average person in practice.
Cost-wise, yes but there are other benefits.
I live in rural MN and used to commute to downtown Minneapolis about 40 miles away. It was far more convenient, not to mention much faster, to drive to an express bus stop and take the bus into the city than to drive. The 6 block walk to the office sucked sometimes when it was raining or -20F but not having to deal with traffic, plus the reduction of wear and tear on my car was well worth the minor inconvenience.
Now, I realize that's an ideal situation: having a bus 15 minutes away and a relatively short distance between the bus stop and my destination, but it's possible. Cities can do this: Minneapolis has streets that are bus-only at rush hour to speed up transit -- cars will get ticketed if the cops see them. The Metro area has a large number of bus routes between suburbs and even to the edge of the ex-urban areas. There was a big push around 20 years ago to improve transit and it's definitely paying off, but it takes commitment and patience that I guess a lot of other areas in the country don't have.
Today, you’re looking at 10-15 year old cars at that price range. Reality is a decent used car from a condition perspective is about $15k.
Maybe the Zoomer/Millenial focus on luxury goods has lead to a world where people aren't interested in vehicles outside of the high end?
I thought that was dumb and just decided to get by with less money and no car.
Throughout high school, I’d walk to the general store a mile away and that was about all I did other than go fishing (my favorite thing to do at the time). For a bit of money I tutored at school and tied flies (a fishing thing) for a local tackle shop.
In college I’d think nothing of walking 3-5 miles round trip for errands. Outside of peak school hours I was often the only person on the limited local bus system. I kept tutoring and writing grad school entrance essays for kids for money.
After college I moved to Portland, OR and still haven’t learned to drive (I’m 40 today). I walk and bike everywhere and take the bus once in awhile.
Growing up it was 1 mile to the general store or 35 miles to Walmart. I went there with my parents or I didn't go there at all. My job tying flies was by mail. I worked at home and mailed them to the shop. It paid about minimum wage but kept me in fishing tackle and I got better at tying flies. Plus I could listen to the radio while I worked. And we had a schoolbus to get to/from school which I don't think is that rare.
Incidentally, the author of this article showed us around Houten (9 minutes from Utrecht by train) and it was hard to contain my dumb grin just seeing kids - not much older than mine! - riding bikes _everywhere_ and just doing their thing. we visited for dinner and when her ~10 y.o. son said "I want to go ice skating" she said "OK, have fun!" and he just... hopped on his bike and went. No "ugg who's going to drive him" or "I don't want to have to pick him up late" etc. - an independence most kids can only dream of.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/16/welcome-cycle...
I actually would've thought the biggest adjustment would be cultural - the Dutch seem more reserved than Americans (who, to be fair, are known for being exceptionally outgoing).
I only got a driver's license when I got married and my wife insisted, because she didn't want to the only one driving the kids around. (She mostly insists that she drives, though.) I still commute by bike.
In a well-designed city, most people don't really need a car. Some do; some jobs really do require a car. My wife still travels to all corners of the country regularly, so we do have a car for that, but for me personally, a car would be a pointless expense.
For me a car isn't for getting around the city or getting to work (I much prefer walking/biking/taking public transport for that), but getting away from the city. To get to my favourite walking trail by the sea or the local ski slope is a 30 minute drive or 1.5+ hours by public transport. Getting to the slightly larger ski resort is a 90 minute drive or almost 4 hours by public transport. Getting to a national park I like visiting is a 2.5 hour drive and virtually impossible to get to by public transport. With public transport I can vacation in most major cities in Europe. With a car I can vacation in tiny beautiful out of the way places I never would have even thought of visiting before I got car.
So a lot of the discution about getting people "out of cars" is not about getting people to never drive, but to get them to not own a car, such that they have to make the concious decision of renting a car for the holidays, if this is the best choice, for instance. What you describe sound like this.
Obviously, this opens the question of how to improve the car rental market to make those options real options. This is where car-sharing systems and the like come in.
If you need a car for a longer trip abroad, you probably need a different kind of car rental, but the advantage is that every time you can tailor the kind of car you rent for the purpose you need it for. Get a station car or minivan for vacation, a tiny electric car for a short trip with no luggage, or a van if you need to move some serious stuff.
If I lived in Boston/Cambridge, say, and rarely needed/wanted to leave the city I'd probably be fine with not owning a car. But just 5 minutes ago, I was emailing with some friends about getting together on the weekend somewhere out in the country. Yes, I could rent a Zipcar or a conventional rental but that gets old for doing things out of the city on a regular basis--especially spontaneously.
But there are comments on this thread to the effect of "But I don't really need to go anywhere. I have the Internet." And that's a fundamentally different perspective and set of priorities.
Traffic was a problem on roads long before the internet. It's not the car. It's how we've attempted to scale cars via highways and stroads at the expense of everything around us.
I don't hate cars. They're not the problem.
The problem with enjoying cars as a mode of commuting is that cars don't scale when the occupant-to-car ratio is 1:1, since the car is easily several times the size of one occupant. Cars could scale if the number of occupants was on average, greater than 1:1, as it is on planes, trains, and busses.
One way to make cars scale like larger vehicles is to reduce their size toward a bicycle or motorcycle. This is obvious from observing denser parts of the world.
The other way is HOV lanes. That hasn't worked well around here where I've frequently been the only one on the HOV in the middle of stop-and-go, multi-lane, rush-hour traffic for decades.
The driver just made the decision not to carry more occupants under the guise of personal freedom. That's an error for which we all bear the burden.
The hyperfocus on productivity, punctuality, and space-time in general is the problem with modern commute culture, ignoring the evolving dialectic on remote work. We did not create this, but we've certainly accepted it, - the triumph of commute-time over commune-time.
We may not all be pickled in the same diminishing-returns-on-more-cars culture, but we can transition to an increasing-returns-on-less-cars culture and simply learn to transit the earth more creatively, meaningfully, and multi-modally.
Commuting is a choice that should be optimized for the mutual benefit of self and society.
I, for one, really enjoy being able to read on a bus or a train (leave the driving to them) - ignoring self-driving because I don't trust "them" any further than I can throw my near-autonomous medical device, because there isn't any greater sacrifice in my mind than the feeling of agency that arises from having my hands on the wheel and the gearshift, whether bicycle, motorcycle, or car.
It's pretty cheap and is competitive with a bus pass depending on where you're going. It covers gas, insurance, maintenance, and you have access to all local parking permits. You can get essentially 'unlimited rides' for less than 100$/month.
I had a car off and on over the last couple of years, and I would barely use it, mostly just to change parking spots. I also sank a couple ~4k into repairs only to finally scrap it (I'm a bit of an idiot).
Communauto is a great inbetween, where I can do groceries, can go on extended trips. It's a great option for the occasional (<3/week) or frequent in-city motorist.
At the same time, I recently saw a documentary about how young families are driven out of the cities and into the suburbs because apartments in bigger cities have become unaffordable for many of them. Also, life styles sometimes change as you get older - when you start a family, many of the amenities of city life become increasingly irrelevant, and raising kids outside of the city can also be more attractive for many. In such a situation, the perspective of having a car becomes a completely different one.
I mostly gave up a car living in Washington, DC. I still had one, but only because my apartment had free parking. It came in handy for occasional work trips and road trips, but day-to-day I walked or biked almost everywhere.
Yet, the main reason it was not useful was because the roads were so packed with traffic, at almost all hours of the day, that it was nearly impossible to drive anywhere. Let alone find somewhere to park that wouldn't charge you $20.
If enough people fall out of love with cars, maybe it driving will become attractive again.
Cars are a necessary evil in my life for the moment, but I hope for a future where that "necessary" part goes away.
I don't buy this article's argument. Outside of cities there will always be a demand for cars. My daughter just turned 16 and she's working/saving for a car and won't shut up about it - which IMO is great...motivation to work hard, keep her grades up (one of our stipulations), etc. Same with all of her friends.
In cities with a functioning mass transit system, there's very little need for the young or old to be interested or in love with cars. It's the same as it ever was. This is literally a non-story.
I loathe car dependence too, but I suspect a lot is linked to frugality: I grew up with gas prices approaching $5 a gallon and it certainly didn't feel freeing to pay that to go literally anywhere (plus maintenance and upfront costs and insurance, of course).
They hate driving or they don't drive because they don't have a license (and thus how can they hate something they don't do)...which one is it?
I don't "love" my vehicle, I'm an adult and a vehicle is just a tool. I enjoy the convenience of being able to move from point A to point B on my own schedule. Are there downsides? Of course. Find me something that has no downsides. Cars have more upside than downside for most people outside of cities with mass transit systems that run like a well oiled machine.
Beyond just moving humans, sometimes we need to move other things. I needed several sheets of drywall and plywood a couple of weeks ago. I didn't have to pay some ridiculous $100 delivery fee and wait for delivery on their schedule. I drove 1/2 mile to my local hardware store, threw the materials in the back of my truck and brought it home...total time, 30 minutes.
Learning something isn't always fun, even if that something is something you may come to enjoy (or at least be indifferent about) once you gain a certain level of competency with it. If you never get past the learning discomfort it's hard to differentiate the dislike for the activity itself vs the frustrations of being a beginner.
I've driven thousands of miles and hundreds or thousands of hours. In high school it was a requirement for living. But there's a big difference between being proficient and enjoying something. I got well past the "learning discomfort" and I still loathed driving. I choose to avoid driving every chance I can, even when it's cold, or rainy, or windy, or it'll take a long time to walk. Because I enjoy being outside and enjoying the world a lot more than being cooped up in a giant expensive metal box.
Some people just prefer walking, biking, and public transit over driving. You almost sound like you're describing Stockholm Syndrome, learning to "enjoy" a task that is stressful and unpleasant that you're forced to do every day.
I can't think of any activity I'm required to participate in by society that annoys me as much as driving everywhere.
As others have mentioned though, cost matters too. AAA reported today that for new car owners the average cost of ownership has crossed $10,000: https://newsroom.aaa.com/2022/08/annual-cost-of-new-car-owne...
That's a lot of buses and Ubers.
- Not just taxis anymore: Rideshare apps are available and easy to use
- More car rental/carsharing options to choose from (e.g. Zipcar in the USA)
- Not just bikes/motorcycles: Now one can buy E-bikes, or borrow E-bikes or regular bikes via bike share programs, now scooters are getting in on this too
- More intercity bus and train companies with decent amenities
- I don't know how car rental companies were before. But they are still an option.
And we don't have to pay for inspections/insurance/maintenance on any of that.
Where I live now it'd be madness to want a car, just a huge obligation to take care of with very little use. Decent chance I'll feel a bit different when I buy a place and am living in an area with much less frequent public transport options (but much more space to just leave a car sitting).
I would rather stay where I am than move out to somewhere like that though; and I don't think I'd ever see it as a positive trade beyond the ownership vs rental aspect.
It's a real hassle to drive, park and do maintenance/accreditation/insurance on a car that most people simply accept because that's the way things are done. Honestly, I'm 35 and I've always felt car-culture reminded me of smokers in the 60s: it's terrible overall but most people can't seem to see the problems since it's so widespread.
Cars pollute. Cars can kill you (and do kill many unprotected people every day). Cars make people disconnected from others and social connection suffer - you don't just meet people on the street anymore, children don't walk home which was always great time to socialize.
Cars are also terribly inefficienct way to get around. Even if you forget fuel cost, health considerations, pollution. They are just too big for everyone to have one and still be able to get around in a city in reasonable time. Bikes are already faster in many cities even with terrible car centric infrastructure and laws hostile to cycling. E-bikes with some infrastructure would be significantly faster than cars. And cheaper, and greener and safer and healthier.
Cars often take valuable land which could be used for residential buildings or recreational areas. Significant % of many city centers are parking lots. Significant % of many big buildings are parking lots as well. The cost of car centric infrastructure is humongous.
I am so happy this movement gets some traction. For everyone life quality getting rid of cars in cities would mean great improvement for life quality, especially young people and poor people.
This is largely just nonsense for a lot of modern cars. I’m at 80k in 4 years and have only done oil changes and tyres.
My mother only had her first “big” repair on her car at 140k after 10 years.
Cars are more reliable than they’ve ever been.
Tires last at least 3 years..
Unless you're driving an obscene amount or doing burnouts everywhere a set of tyres should last 3-4 years. A set for a small sedan really isn't that expensive.
> more reliable
So what? They are still a cost that is forced upon us. I don’t want a car. Yet I have to have one whether I like it or not.
Gas does cost a decent amount, but it's also something you can control. Combine trips, drive less, and drive more tamely.
In my opinion the freedom and convenience of a car is worth the cost of fuel.
The unfortunate reality is if you wait for American cities to become less car dependant you’ll be waiting a very long time. If this is important enough to you in a city there are places you’d be happy.
It’s worth remembering that name calling and personal attacks are not allowed on HN.
There are very few cities where you can get around without a car. Even fewer of those are affordable.
This is more problematic as people age. Should elderly drivers retake driving tests? Many argue yes, but no one provides a solution as to what to do when you take their license away. In most cities you'd be screwed.
A full set of tires generally costs more than the average american has in their emergency fund
> Cars are more reliable than they’ve ever been
Larger and more expensive too, gas prices are also higher than they have been historically.
The statistics on emergency funds are sketchy at best, at least here in Canada. I recommend you look at who is funding them and their methodology.
Luckily I moved away, but every time I'm back home I do feel the pain - especially during winters.
But we need to understand. There are cases where the car is a must. Unavoidable. Imagine having toddlers, having to do heavy groceries, and living in a place with difficult landscape or challenging weather. Imagine having a neurological disease or some other disability.
There's different ways of living a life, and the current trend shouldn't be seen as car demonization. I see it more as a new generation seeing the current US car-centric society and pushing for a better (for the life they want to live) alternative.
>Good public transit is unfortunately the exception in many places and not the rule.
Then let's make it better! :-)
>” Then let's make it better! :-)”
Why respond with such condescension? And, why follow it up with such a hollow and glib call to action?
This is a fixable problem. The biggest issue is...
> Cars are still needed in many use cases.
... the people who say this and, as a result, block any attempt to improve public transit whatsoever. Even worse, some are apt to frame it a "war on cars" because they're spending money on transportation that's not going to cars.
Those trips might be east to the small city. Or west to the mid-sized down. There's a bus in those directions, about once every 2 hours, last one at 6pm so useless for evening activities, or commuting further on the train. It's just gone past my front door now, it's rare to see more than 2 or 3 passengers on board other than at college time.
My options for going further - to London or Manchester 1) bus to the station, train to london, tube across london, then return on tube, train, and get a taxi back from the station 2) drive to the station in the morning, park, drive back in the evening (last train arrives about midnight) 3) drive the entire journey, under 3 hours so about the same amount of time
Same if I go to Manchester and Birmingham, but the drive is about half the time of public transport.
They might be south towards the big village. Or north to another big town. There's no bus services there.
Now you might say "just put on more public transport". My wife drives to work at a hospital 25 miles away. I suspect you could meet the entire daily demand from my village in that direction with a single minibus. The route doesn't pass any other major settlements, it's south-west down the lanes. How frequently would a bus need to run to be useful? Every hour? How early would it start? How late would it run? How many people would it take on each journey, and how much would it cost to run? How much pollution would it cause? What benefits would there be?
Public transport doesn't work below a certain density. If you want to depopulate the country and put everyone in tower blocks in the city - leaving the country for the rich - then just be honest about it.
I don't want to do this. But the fact that you immediately go to the suggestion that I do is emblematic of the "war-on-cars" mentality. Just so much as mention wanting to improve public transit and you get a screed that concludes that I'm an evil person with ulterior motives.
No, public transit doesn't work everywhere. I'm not going to even try to pretend that it does. And consequently, I'm not going to attempt to propose it in places where it doesn't work. So why do the "war-on-car" people so vehemently oppose public transit when its proposed in the places where it very obviously works?
If you had business in a different city that's a few hours distance, and you miss the last bus of the day, you'll need to wait at least 6-8 hours to be able to get the first bus or train of the next day.
In this case you can probably still find a taxi, but then we're back to the car situation.
(EDIT: Of course the problem would also be solved if you could get a bus or train any time of the day.)
Bud, nobody is taking the car away from those kinds of use cases. It's very clear for most people that cars are necessary in those situations, and that's fine. What we're demonising is the car as the only way to go about getting from A to B. If you watch some of the urban planning videos on the topic, or lurk the r/f*cars subreddit you'll quickly see that most people also* want to make the driving experience better! And by better they don't mean to build one more lane, but sensible infrastructure that makes sense for everybody, not just the cars. The whole point is about inclusion: why isn't using a car unavoidable?
Fact of the matter is the following: not everyone lives near a fantastic commuting infrastructure, let alone can physically achieve moving from A to B against the elements or their other problems.
But other than that, you are wrong again. The most common neurological disabilities actually affect motor and sensitivity. Are people are allowed to drive.
I tick all of those boxes and never had a car.
I live in the city, walking and using public transit. Toddlers love to walk and to be carried in the stroller.
Cars from the suburbs are a constant inconvenience for us living in inner cities: they are a danger to pedestrians and cyclists alike, they make our streets noisy and our air polluted.
If people liked the suburbs so much, they would stay there. But no, they want the convenience and services of the city while shoving the externalities of their lifestyle onto other people.
The inner cities are also places were the suburbs people come to work and play. So space in underground parkings or other accomodations is expected. Imagine if the sububs people decided to say to you (inner) city people that you are not allowed to go to their green parks and recreation areas because you are "shoving externalities of your (city) lifestyle to them".
Jesus.
Regarding green spaces, they easily coexist in dense walkable neighborhoods.
I hear such outrageous arguments all the time by inner city dwellers. Just because they own or rent a microscopic appartment in a condo, they think they own the city and all must abide to their lifestyle.
Amsterdam has slowly tried to move cars out of the city center over the past couple decades. Residents can still get a parking permit, but parking space has been reduced to make more space for people, and visitors had better park their car at the edge of the city and take public transport into the city center. Or just come by train.
No, they are tax-payers, they should be allowed to come with whatever vehicle they want. I agree that cheap public transportation should be offered, but also parking spaces for those who cannot come with public transportation.
I support them, though. I'm a tax payer too, and I live here, and I like the fact that this city is a lot nicer now.
And there are parking spaces. Lots of them. At the edge of the city. With fast public transport to the center, and if you combine the two, the parking is incredibly cheap. It's a win for everybody. I have no idea where your weird entitlement comes from.
Im sorry for the snark but your comment seems out of touch and elitist.
So perhaps with this new context you can rethink where my comment was coming from.
Kids need to be able to explore independently! Thank you for understanding this.
Cars have reasons to exists and a no-car future is neither likely nor desirable; but today they are overused as an inefficient but easy solution.
Here in Switzerland I see people biking with toddlers AND heavy groceries all the time. And the landscape and weather are definitely challenging.
I have a neighbor who drives her 3 small kids around on a bicycle (one in the rear child seat, two in a trailer). In her defence it's an e-bike.
A. In the US - driving sucks.
Populated areas: It's gotten much more crowded on every road in the past 20 years. At least where I live rush hour is a joke - there's a crash every day on the interstate, meaning traffic doesn't get above 30mph the whole time I'm on the interstate. Local roads are also full of cars during these times and during most times. It's not fun, and it's not freedom, it's an annoying necessity to live.
Non-populated areas: Far less crowded, but to get anywhere, you're looking at long drives on twisty, winding roads. It might be fun at first, but then gets old. It's not freedom, it's an annoying necessity to live.
B. I think cars used to be a rite of passage for young people, and often the first way they would get "out of the house" and have a way to get privacy for their earliest girlfriends/boyfriends. This is something that started to die in the late 80's. Today's young people are much poorer, much more worried, pissed, and disappointed in everything, much more isolated, and under much more restrictive settings in things they do such as school and such.
Yea, try living somewhere rural without a large number of things. The fact is, most people don't, and the fact is, most of the market for everything is in cities and their satellite suburbs.
Uber Eats might not reach that far, but you learn to cope.
This wouldn't be problematic if the replacement were better, but it's not. Try going on a long road trip in an electric car: depending on your origin and destination, it may or may not be possible. It will take a significant multiple of the time it would've taken in an ICE car.
It's no wonder today's youth aren't interested in anemic ICE cars - they aren't as cool or exciting as they used to be. And electric cars are only really viable/useful for the rich (with garages to charge them in) and/or those who live in densely populated areas where they don't have to drive very far... and those places usually have viable public alternatives that young people without families are happy to use instead.
And it made me love cars.
I love having a little home base wherever I go.
I love not having to sit next to homeless people on drugs doing crazy things next to me.
I love being able to wear a nice watch and nice shoes and not having to constantly look over my shoulder worrying about being robbed.
I love being able to bring my little mini Australian shepherd dog without having to beg and plead with the government for permission and medical institutions for service dog paperwork because Pitbull owners exist and are exactly the people who ride mass transit.
I love being able to go anywhere at any time.
I love not having to rely on unreliable drivers of mass transit to get somewhere on time.
I'm sure mass transit works great in an idealic region of all middle class and upper middle class people.
But I would rather the downsides of driving than the downsides of having having to sit next to the seething teeming flesh of the average American anytime I want to go somewhere.
Also part of me wonders if mass transit works better in cities like New York in Chicago where the cold weather annihilates the homeless population.
Public transport can be slow and you get weirdos on it occasionally and it's annoying if you want to visit somewhere without a train station like a castle or whatever - but it doesn't seem worth the hassle of having one in the city.
I really wish they'd expand the train network though.
Like begging and street selling should be illegal, clean it right up so even the wealthy would choose to take public transport.
Since moving back into a midlands city and purchasing a house, it quickly became apparent that *not* owning a car was detrimental to quality of life, there's a lot of aspects of home ownership where having a car just makes sense. Going to the DIY store to buy bulky items, going grocery shopping to do a "big shop", moving stuff around etc.
So I got my driving license at 36 years old a few months back. It's kinda awkward learning to drive at this age but I think I took it more seriously when I learnt a little bit at 17.
I'm still in the honeymoon period so quite enjoy the novelty of driving, the independence etc. I guess one advantage I do have with working remotely is I don't commute to work, so all my driving is 100% leisure and I don't drive during the peak/rush hour times.
On the other hand people will seek better living quality in less dense areas and this makes the car necessary, however infrequently. Maybe the news of their demise is greatly exaggerated
It’s not even about the fact that it’s inefficient or you’re limited to specific routes or that it’s slow.
The core reason it’s so shit is because some trash person can just come on the bus and chef you up for looking at them funny. I don’t have to deal with trash people in my comfy lil car.
Like in my city it'd cost at least $4000 to get a licence, and then $250 a month for indoor parking, $~200 a month or so for insurance, road tax, etc. and $~400 a month for the car loan.
After taxes and mortgage payment/rent that's just unaffordable (as a Europoor).
Regardless, I still love cars. I have a small collection of euro classics and vintage Japanese models and I love restoring them.
I definitely see people have gone more toward seeing cars as appliances rather than appendages they love. And I can see the trend heading more toward an overall disdain with having to own cars or put up with them as pedestrians or cyclists. I wonder if when my daughters grow up if driving around my classics will actually been seen as cool or gross to their peers.
I love not owning a car. This is made possible by lots of good public transportation options around me. On the few occasions that I need a car I can easily rent one. I've only rented a car 3 times in the last 10 years, excluding trips to the US (where I always need to rent a car).
But also, modern cars are bananas. Between the flat screens replacing physical controls and the paid subscriptions to enable existing functionality, I want nothing to do with car ownership anymore.
I expect $tatus $ymbols to continue falling out of favor and be replaced by self sufficiency. Rich are also falling out of love with alcohol and falling in love with fitness. This is good for everyone.
It's better to go to the track twice a month and have fun in a rented Ferrari or a Lamborghini for 10 very hot laps and then Ubering for the rest of the month moving from point A to point B.
The whole ownership of a car seems like useless as far as practicality and also cost. The A-B cars are owned by the community and the fun cars are owned by the track (or the rent company at the track). And I just use one or the other depending on my mood.
The whole cars as design objects I never bought into that.
Of course I live in a city and I don't need cars to do heavy work.
I now find that I didn't much need the car. My wife has a car, we share it. I'm a car enthusiast, but now I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever go back to two cars for the pair of us.
I now work for a large german car manufacturer as a SWE. I cannot afford the cheapest car they make, it is literally more than I make in a year before tax. I don't own car yet and I'm not sure I will be able to afford one in the next 3-5 years. I don't even care that I (a former car nut) works for a car manufacturer when this would've been my dream job as a kid
I like this combination and I am glad that taxis exist. Some errands would be really weird-to-impossible without the ability to use a car, even if it is driven by somebody else.
Going carless works mainly for people who have their whole lives around urban areas. For the rest of us cars are a necessity for enjoying life.
Mainly it is for idiosyncratic reasons: I hate being confined where I can't stand up if I want to, and I don't like "car smell". There's something about the air inside motor vehicles that puts me on edge. I get the same feeling on buses and planes, but oddly not on trains, even though rationally I know the air must be of similar quality.
There's the health benefits and the climate stuff and saving money and so on. But that's not what I'm happy about about when I bike around; it's about fresh air and postural freedom.
I'm glad I live somewhere where I don't need a car to do everyday things. It's not as bike-friendly as somewhere like Denmark but it's tolerable.
My car has been staying in the garage most of the time. I feel, slowly, places are getting a bit more dense and have more things to do that are just walking distance, without having to deal with the hassle of driving/parking, etc.
If you live in a single room in a house in London, barely go outdoors, and have one shelf in a fridge, then a car is just far less useful to you as a concept.
If you live in a house and you go on outdoor adventures often then it's a daily thing. I mean I transport wood, tools, large amounts of groceries, etc on a near daily basis.
My car isn't even expensive. Go buy a Toyota or Honda. Hybrid? Even better. I'd happily pay a bit more monthly to be in comfort than to save a buck.
For GenZ the 'scene' is mostly online. There's no reason to go to a particular place to hang out with friends, meet new people or see something cool, interesting, and different.
Taking the train everywhere has its issues but I would much rather deal with those than a car.
Most cities are not Portland, OR. Culturally, geographically or structurally. Show me this trend in Anywhereelseville.
Back in the day, my first car was £700, with £400 insurance. It's no where near that now, and this is only 19 years ago.
Case in point, a kid who (a) wants to have a job (b) wants to hook up and (c) wants to go to parties / events still wants a car. What changes is that whereas in the 80s/90s, a kid who sat in his basement pulling his pud would would be considered a loser and have pressure to not be like that. Today it's totally acceptable. So there are simply more kids who aren't even trying to have an out-of-basement life, so they don't need cars.
I think it's not that relevant. The kids who are going to grow up with more power (financial and social) are the ones that want cars today.
Other times? Meh.
Their price and wages are another.
cant afford a car. cant afford a house.
Marx predicted it perfectly:
> You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society.
"By 1997, 43% of the country’s 16-year-olds had driving licences. But in 2020, the most recent year for which figures are available, the number had fallen to just 25%. Nor is it just teenagers. One in five Americans aged between 20 and 24 does not have a licence, up from just one in 12 in 1983. "
US vehicle sales numbers: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA
The article states it's baby boomers that account for increasing traffic on the road. So baby boomers are buying more cars per capita as they age? So much so that it's offsetting these dramatic drops from the younger generations? I find that really hard to believe so maybe I'm missing something. Anyone able to explain?
It's irrelevant whether or not the young are "falling out of love" with cars, cars are essential in the rich world (at least in my country, the UK) outside of a few urban areas well-served by public transport infrastructure - and non-EVs at that.
There's a huge amount of development needed in that infrastructure before the luxury of choice will matter to the average Jo.
I’ve never really wanted to own a car but I did when I lived in a small town as there wasn’t really any other option. As soon as I moved to a place where I could live comfortably without one I got rid of it and haven’t had any regrets about that decision.
Older generations (my parent for example) truly love their cars and never could imagine themselves living without one. Same for my grandmother and she lives right next to all the services she uses and mostly walks to them but still she has to own a car.