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Comment by rybosworld | Hacker News Reader

I think it's awesome that some people enjoy their work and love their jobs.

That said, if you aren't an owner of the company then I think it's unhealthy to be emotionally invested.

In my last job, I had received a competing offer and informed my boss that I would rather not leave but that this other offer was too financially good for me to ignore. My boss responded by beating the other offer and I stayed there for about five more years.

I later admitted to him that I felt guilt about leveraging an offer in this way. He said something that really stuck with me: "You've got to put yourself first".

In retrospect, the thing that actually stuck with me is that I'd gleamed into the mind of upper management. That is, they are putting themselves first, and so should you.

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This is one of those things that makes sense in the airless vacuum of a message board that has no connection to ordinary life; the mythical "touchless grass" as the tweeters say. In reality, people in all walks of life form deep emotional attachments to their jobs. Plant closures disrupt the identities of entire cities. People are emotionally attached to jobs as checkout clerks. Hit songs have been written about the phenomenon. You can't just tell people not to have human connections to their work. It's like telling Glen Campbell that the Wichita Lineman doesn't own enough of Southwestern Bell to be identifying himself as such.

> You can't just tell people not to have human connections to their work.

In my case, it has been required.

I'm very fortunate, to have worked for 27 years, for a company that had many, many faults, but always treated their workers as if their career at the company was a critical factor.

That's because it was a "classic" Japanese company.

The best managers that I had, were Japanese (including one that eventually because the Chairman of the Board). The worst ones -by a large margin- were the Americans.

The Americans had very little Integrity. They also tended to be casually dishonest, in a jaw-dropping way.

Eventually, my team was dissolved, and I was laid off. I got a year's severance (It was capped -by the Americans, otherwise, it would have been more). My manager flew in from Japan, to tell me. He was next on the chopping block, himself.

Integrity is important, and very, very rare.

I like to feel as if I demonstrated it, in my own management. My employees seemed to agree.

If I talk about it here, I tend to be met with some fairly sneering, insulting responses.

In his autobiography Akio Morita (founder at Sony) tells a story in the 1960s, they'd hired an American salesman, who had done very well for them for many years, but then the guy thought he could make better money elsewhere, so he changed jobs. The next year they were all at a big electronics conference in Las Vegas, and Akio Morita was there talking up Sony's latest products, and this American sales guy walks up to them to say hello. Akio Morita, and the rest of the Japanese team, thought perhaps the American would have a sense of shame and so would try to avoid them, but instead the guy walked up and was very friendly and chatted with them awhile. Afterwards Akio Morita realized that the American saw nothing shameful in leaving Sony for some other company that was paying better. It was a bit of a shock for Akio Morita. He had initially thought of America as a paradise for managers, because they could fire a worker whenever they wanted to, but that incident with the salesman caused Akio Morita to see the other side of it, that a worker could quit at any time, and so Akio Morita developed doubts about the American system.

I remember when a color scientist that we worked with (she was Japanese), left the company, and joined a direct competitor.

Her name was struck from the lists. It's as if she was never there.

Damn good at her job. I suspect that the "classic Japanese" culture of our company didn't give her the opportunities that the more modern company she joined, would.

I'm deliberately being vague, but both companies are household names.

Integrity as a virtue is given less weight in almost all business transactions, these days.

If you wander around the Diamond District, in NYC, you'll see all these skinny little guys, in rumpled suits, walking around; very often, accompanied by a much larger guy, in a more fitted suit.

These chaps can have millions of dollars' worth of diamonds in their pockets, and they routinely exchange them on a handshake basis.

Integrity has worked for them for a long, long time.

It's not dead. It's just resting. Probably pining for the Fjords.

Integrity is as important as it has always been. While you can certainly have a successful career or business that is lacking it, how much integrity you are perceived as having has an enormous influence on it.

If you are viewed as lacking, you will largely be restricted to doing business with people and companies who are also lacking because others won't give you the time of day.

I'd agree with what you're saying, although I think it highly is dependent upon the personality and independence level of the individual. Even at jobs where I found the work interesting, I've never had the slightest emotional attachment to the company. I'm vastly more interested in working on my own projects and hobbies and after putting in the requisite 7-8 hours in a day I completely switch off.

It's the same for the ostensible loyalty towards ones hometown. I've been just as comfortable living in China as I have back in the states.

I have no loyalty to abstractions like symbols, countries or companies. Loyalty is reserved for friends and my family.

> You can't just tell people not to have human connections to their work.

Human connections are great and important. But feeling an attachment to the company is neither of those things. Have connections with people, not with instruments of economic production.

I've always been impressed with upper management at my current company, and I don't believe any of them have that mindset. My wife broke her leg a couple weeks ago, and we have a 3 month old baby and a 4 year old. I had just started working again after taking paternity leave. I've been a rather poor employee the last several weeks, and will continue to be for a while. Middle management is stressed out about schedules and stressing me out, while the word from upper management has been consistently clear: you've always gone the extra mile for the company, so let the company do the same for you. Focus on taking care of your family and don't worry about work.

> unhealthy to be emotionally invested.

I used to agree with this, but I've changed my tune recently. Working 8 hours a day on something you're not emotionally invested in for years is incredibly depressing and puts you at risk of burn out. My more nuanced opinion is that you need to find the right pieces of the company to be invested in. I can take pride in the quality of the code, in trying to help out my co-workers, etc.

This and investment in self development through the work for the company. I don't earn just money but I gain experience. When the second one doesn't go up, it's time to go.

Oh, this is so me. When I'm looking for a new position, the main thing I'm looking for is a position where I'll have to be learning new skills.

The pay rate ranks third or fourth on my list of important considerations.

> That is, they are putting themselves first, and so should you.

Another point to make is, it's possible to know this, put yourself first, and still love your job.

While I totally agree, I can't blame people for getting emotionally invested because today's companies hammer that corporate propaganda into everyone's heads all the time. There are good intentions, but it's manipulative in the same way that a flaky boyfriend or girlfriend can lead you on even though they're not truly serious or committed. In the cast of corporatism, the sentimentality is directed toward a group of disparate individuals with an overlapping albeit replaceable goal. The best thing for everyone is to see it for what it is, not assume malice, and keep a safe distance.

I see it like this: it is my work. It is my name that goes on the CR, on the commit, on the documentation, etc. Why shouldn’t I take as much pride and genuinely care about it as much as I can? At the end of it all, it is my effort, and I will give he best effort I can.

I know I’m speaking about effort, and you’re speaking about becoming emotionally invested, but the latter is a natural manifestation of of the former; the emotional investment arises because of the effort I put forth.

You can be invested in your work, in your professionalism, and in the people you get to know. All of those things are very different from being emotionally invested in the company itself.

> "You've got to put yourself first".

This doesn't mean "take the highest offer", it means putting yourself first. In your situation, going back to your boss was clearly an ask to stay because that was what you wanted. It's possible to be comfortable and content with your work and your job, and to prioritize that over chasing more money too.

Story time: many moons ago i was in the sane situation, and decided to stay because i loved the team and had a very good work relationship with my boss/team leader… despite the company being kind of a circus on fire.

What I didn’t know was that the company that was trying to hire me was also in contact with my boss/team leader, which actually accepted the offer and left.

We still have a good relationship and I still consider him a friend (hope it’s the same for him) and we meet from time to time for a beer with other former colleagues.

Needless to say, that was a very formative experience.

You gotta look out for #1, because nobody else will.

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