Framework Laptop Review (Intel 12th G. Laptop) with Linux: The Definitive Review | Hacker News Reader

Framework Laptop Review (Intel 12th G. Laptop) with Linux: The Definitive Review

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56 pointsekianjo27 comments

I'm a developer and I went from using a MBP to a 12th Gen Framework Laptop with Fedora 37. I like the laptop because it has a better keyboard and better battery life than my old MBP (the battery needs repair after 4 years). What I don't like is that it often freezes for 5-10 seconds because of a bug in Intel's i915 driver (GPU Hang). I'm also a bit unhappy about some Linux applications having bad support for fractional scaling. For some reason I can't see the speed of the CPU fan. Looks like there is no sensor for it. Also the display is a bit wobbly, but overall I'm really happy to leave OS X behind and found a way back to Linux. The touchpad isn't as good as the one I'm used to but I have seen worse ones. I hope that you can upgrade it in the future.

EDIT: Oh and the speakers are bad and the mic sometimes doesn't work after waking up from suspend but I read that there's a fix for it.

Yeah that freezing bug is pretty annoying. I’m running pop 22.04 and I’m overall pleased with the purchase after using it for the last month. I find that I seem to get less of that freeze problem if I don’t put it to sleep, but rather shut it down completely (which also saves battery life). It boots so quickly that I don’t mind.

Great machine overall—if they can fix a few little bugs it will be pretty much perfect.

The GPU issue isn't limited to Framework; see https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/6679

Panel Self Refresh (PSR) seems to be at least the most common cause:

> @kelnos, have you tried without psr? E.g. add i915.enable_psr=0 into your kernel boot parameters or disable it via debugfs (as a root):

    echo 1 > /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/i915_edp_psr_debug # yes it's '1'

> You can check that psr got really disabled by:

    sudo cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/i915_edp_psr_status
    Sink support: yes [0x03]
    PSR mode: disabled
    PSR sink not reliable: no

I'm on a Framework 12th Gen running Fedora 37, kernel 6.1.9, with no freezes for several weeks after having loads of them under both GNOME and KDE on Ubuntu and pop_OS.

Hey @trynewideas! I already tried the i195.enable_psr=0 kernel boot parameter a month ago but it didn't prevent the freezes. Thanks to your input with the i915_edp_psr_status I now found out that the parameter doesn't have any effect on my system. It just doesn't disable PSR. So I tried to regenerate initramfs with dracut, but still got no effect. I then tried to disable PSR via debugfs as root, but for some reason, I can't write to the file:

    [root@fwk ~]# ls -alF /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_debug
    -rw-r--r--. 1 root root 0 Feb 15 09:09 /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_debug

    [root@fwk ~]# echo 1 > /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_debug
    -bash: /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_debug: Operation not permitted

I'm not sure why I'm unable to write. Do you have to mount debugfs differently to do writes or something like that?

EDIT: debugfs is mounted rw and I tried to disable SELinux temporarily with setenforce 0 but I still can't write.

    [root@fwk ~]# mount | grep  debugfs
    debugfs on /sys/kernel/debug type debugfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,seclabel)

    [root@fwk ~]# setenforce 0
    [root@fwk ~]# sestatus | grep Current
    Current mode:                   permissive
    [root@fwk ~]# echo 1 > /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_debug
    -bash: /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_debug: Operation not permitted

I also got a kernel update today (6.1.11). According to [the changelog](https://cdn.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v6.x/ChangeLog-6.1.1...) there are a lot of changes regarding the i915 driver but it still freezes on my system.

    Feb 15 09:12:53 fwk kernel: Asynchronous wait on fence 0000:00:02.0:gnome-shell[2332]:1252 timed out (hint:intel_atomic_commit_ready [i915])
    Feb 15 09:12:57 fwk kernel: i915 0000:00:02.0: [drm] GPU HANG: ecode 12:0:00000000
    Feb 15 09:12:57 fwk kernel: i915 0000:00:02.0: [drm] Resetting chip for stopped heartbeat on rcs0
    Feb 15 09:12:57 fwk kernel: i915 0000:00:02.0: [drm] GuC firmware i915/adlp_guc_70.bin version 70.5.1
    Feb 15 09:12:57 fwk kernel: i915 0000:00:02.0: [drm] HuC firmware i915/tgl_huc.bin version 7.9.3
    Feb 15 09:12:57 fwk kernel: i915 0000:00:02.0: [drm] HuC authenticated
    Feb 15 09:12:57 fwk kernel: i915 0000:00:02.0: [drm] GuC submission enabled

You can try setting `i915.enable_psr=0` at boot (the "add i915.enable_psr=0 into your kernel boot parameters" part of the comment I linked to and posted) or set the enable_psr parameter on the i915 kernel module.

The Fedora docs cover setting module parameters.[1] This is how setting the kernel module parameter manifests on my system:

    $ sudo grep -iR i915.enable_psr /etc/modprobe.d
    /etc/modprobe.d/i915.conf:options i915 enable_psr=0

    $ sudo cat /etc/modprobe.d/i915.conf 
    options i915 enable_psr=0

Assuming you use the default GRUB 2 boot loader, the Fedora docs also cover setting the kernel boot parameters.[2]

1: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/latest/system-ad...

2: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/latest/system-ad...

I'm not sure why it doesn't have an effect on my system. When I add the i915.conf to /etc/modprobe.d/ and reboot my system the PSR is still active:

    [root@fwk ~]# cat /etc/modprobe.d/i915.conf
    options i915 enable_psr=0
    [root@fwk ~]# cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_status
    Sink support: yes [0x03]
    PSR mode: PSR2 enabled
    Source PSR ctl: enabled [0x80000226]
    Source PSR status: SLEEP [0x30000114]
    Busy frontbuffer bits: 0x00000000
    Frame: PSR2 SU blocks:
    0 0
    1 0
    2 0
    3 0
    4 0
    5 0
    6 0
    7 0

It also has no effect when I append i915.enable_psr=0 to GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX in /etc/default/grub and reboot.

Mine's confirmed disabled, so I'm stumped:

    $ sudo cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/1/i915_edp_psr_status
    Sink support: yes [0x03]
    PSR mode: disabled
    PSR sink not reliable: no

I'd raise a proper support request[1] with Framework then, who are generally more responsive and thorough with these kinds of problems than most laptop tech support (they put me down this path to start with).

1: https://framework.kustomer.help/contact/support-request-ryon...

May I ask you what security features you have enabled? Mine looks like this:

    [root@fwk ~]# fwupdmgr security
    Host Security ID: HSI:3 (v1.8.10)

    HSI-1
     CSME manufacturing mode:       Locked
     CSME override:                 Locked
     CSME v0:16.0.15.1810:          Valid
     MEI key manifest:              Valid
     Platform debugging:            Disabled
     SPI BIOS region:               Locked
     SPI lock:                      Enabled
     SPI write:                     Disabled
     Supported CPU:                 Valid
     TPM empty PCRs:                Valid
     TPM v2.0:                      Found
     UEFI platform key:             Valid
     UEFI secure boot:              Enabled

    HSI-2
     IOMMU:                         Enabled
     Intel BootGuard:               Enabled
     Intel BootGuard ACM protected: Valid
     Intel BootGuard OTP fuse:      Valid
     Intel BootGuard verified boot: Valid
     Platform debugging:            Locked
     TPM PCR0 reconstruction:       Valid

    HSI-3
     Intel BootGuard error policy:  Valid
     Intel CET Enabled:             Enabled
     Pre-boot DMA protection:       Enabled
     Suspend-to-idle:               Enabled
     Suspend-to-ram:                Disabled

    HSI-4
     Intel SMAP:                    Enabled
     Encrypted RAM:                 Disabled

    Runtime Suffix -!
     Intel CET Active:              Supported
     Linux kernel:                  Untainted
     Linux kernel lockdown:         Enabled
     Linux swap:                    Encrypted
     fwupd plugins:                 Untainted

I was wondering whether maybe one of those (maybe the kernel lockdown) prevents me from switching the PSR mode?

Not trying to stir anything here but this review makes me not want it at all. What made you keep it instead of buying a $40 battery replacement for your MacBook if nothing seems to work as well?

I originally come from a Linux and FreeBSD background. I'm used to having to tweak my OS until everything works and looks and feels the way I want it to be. I started using OS X around ten years ago because I needed things like XCode for work. I like how easy it is to use OS X but at the same time I really despise the closed nature of the OS. What also bugged me is the planned obsolescence of the hardware. My MBP's keyboard started to become awful really quick. Now many keys trigger multiple times and some sometimes not at all. Sometimes I have to type my password five or six times (I'm not a fingerprint guy). What I really like about the Framework laptop is that it is designed to be repairable and upgradeable. I don't want to change my laptop every four or five years if possible. I want to be able to replace its mainboard or the keyboard or the display. I now use the Framework every day for work and I'm not less productive than on OS X. At the same time I believe that all issues will be gone eventually.

Bought a DIY and a Chromebook from Framework and am quite pleasantly surprised. Will definitely be getting more hardware from them.

I adore my framework laptop. Everything just works, and swapping ports to match my office, home office, and garage tinkering setup is a huge bonus. (Home is DP + ethernet, Office is USB-C, garage is HDMI + USB-A heavy)

I'm also looking forward to upgrading when new boards come out.

Finally, there's a huge opportunity to DIY expansion ports, it's just USBc on the inside.

Matte screen option or bust.

So bust for now :( I'll stick with Lenovo Thinkpad for now.

even today, the most supported linux built laptops have the same issues from 20 years ago.

i don't know what the root cause is. it's most likely that linux isn't keeping up with the latest chips. maybe they need to cobble up parts from 5 years ago that do have linux support and release that. at least it would work.

I disagree with this characterization, in two ways:

1. This is a Linux-friendly laptop for the most part, but it's still built with Windows as the primary OS (and the only one you can get preinstalled). When you're building things with Linux kernels in mind, it's easy to pick current hardware that supports Linux optimally (see also: every Chromebook).

2. The places where this laptop isn't perfect are _nothing_ like the problems Linux laptops had twenty, or even ten, years ago. I used a Thinkpad with Ubuntu in 2012, and it worked pretty well... but also ran super-hot and burned through battery ridiculously quickly. The Framework doesn't do that. Sure, it doesn't have amazing battery life (around 5-6 hours), but it also doesn't have amazing battery life in Windows; it's just the nature of the hardware. The automatic-brightness thing is real, but relatively minor compared to all the rest of the hardware (Wifi, fingerprint reader, etc) working smoothly.

Sugar coat it however you want, it won't fix the issue. It's a failure. The laptop market is so competitive that I'm not interested the moment I see that suspend is broken and battery life is garbage.

Apple will keep milking us until the community can come together and address the compatibility issue. We need an open linux laptop consortium that can address these issues across the board and then manufacturers can deliver a working product and compete on other dimensions, like how rounded the corners are and thin the laptop is. As it stands, manufacturs appear to be cheering they've sold 10 laptops with broken wifi! But it's wifi6e+8g revision 2023 and has a fingerprint reader. Disconnected.

Meanwhile, Apple is laser dialed on every relevant metric and they're rewarded with a closed eco-system and high margins.

Note that it's a niche product made for people who want to be able to repair and upgrade their hardware. You sound more like you want a Tuxedo InfinityBook or just the new MBP for $4000.

https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-InfinityBook-Pro-1...

thanks, texudo laptops look pretty cool!

Now that AMD supports USB4, I'm hoping Framework has an AMD edition in the future.

TL;DR: nice Hardware but they haven't done the hard work yet: battery efficiency and sleep efficiency under Linux as well as what seems to be a known unfixed bug with the display brightness control. By the time they fixed this to be on par with the best of the best in linux notebooks it's already old hardware.

> battery efficiency

My understanding is that some of this is because the Intel 12th gen 15-watt U-series chips only had 2 performance cores so Framework went the 28W P-series instead to get 4 performance cores.

Using socketed ram is also going to use more power than lpddr.

> sleep efficiency under Linux

What are you comparing it to? Macbooks can sleep a week and lose 5% of battery but I don't know any non-apple machines that can do that.

The Framework sleep perf seems comparable to my XPS 13.

IME all non-apple laptops suck at suspend.

Sleep works out of the box with Fedora 36/37.

> By the time they fixed this to be on par with the best of the best in linux notebooks it's already old hardware.

It seems to work as well as it will already? It's easy to swap out the mainboard if more efficient chips come out.

I have multiple old laptops that can sleep just fine, none of them Apple. This sleep issue is a recent regression and Apple laptops are just as affected.

The Framework sleeps and wakes just fine. We were discussing battery usage during sleep.

Do your old laptops use 5% of battery after a week of sleep? That's the performance I've observed with Macbooks.

My chromeos framework laptop also seems to lose little power when sleeping, but I haven't done a long study. I just upgraded the ram to 64gb, so happy I bought this one. Next step is switching it to dual booting linux and chromeos.

The battery issue is likely because sleep is no longer sleep. Laptops have stopped properly supporting S3 sleep, where the cpu is off but memory is retained. Often what you get these days is S1 sleep where the system can be woken by software and start installing updates.

Older laptops don't have this issue so bttery use is no problem.

AFAIK you can configure Linux to go from suspend to hibernate after some hours. Hibernate puts the contents of the RAM on disk so it doesn't drain the battery anymore. You can keep a laptop for months in hibernation without losing a lot of battery.

https://community.frame.work/t/guide-fedora-36-hibernation-w...

> Framework has a pro-Linux stance by providing direct documentation ..

They didn't do any work yet. It doesn't look like there is anyone at Framework working on Linux issues.

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