Das Keyboard now pre-ordering Mac version of their mechanical keyboard | Hacker News Reader

Das Keyboard now pre-ordering Mac version of their mechanical keyboard

daskeyboard.com

I use an Apple Extended Keyboard: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/m_kbdm3501.jpg

It requires a rather hefty ADB to USB adapter, which ran me about fifty bucks (http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-adapt...) but to me, it was worth it.

Modern Apple keyboards look beautiful sitting in a pristine environment, but the lack of key travel, too-flat form factor, and decent spacing makes typing unpleasant.

My old Extended Keyboard takes up more space on my desk than my laptop does. It's noisy as hell. It's about as pretty as a Soviet gas station. And I can type all day long on it without my hands ever tiring.

If I may, I suggest you try the USB version - Apple USB keyboard - http://www.amazon.com/Apple-109-Key-Version-Keyboard-1003199...

Very similar layout, with a smaller form factor, non mechanical but to me it feels just as good, and it features an USB hub. My preferred keyboard at home and at work, along with some ControllerMate magic to turn the Help key into something more useful.

PS: it also has a delete (Ctrl-D) key to the right of backspace (Ctrl-H), in the usual PC position.

I used to like these, but after a while the keypress resistance becomes bigger and bigger. Mechanical quality is not as good as one would think it is from first impression.

Found one of these at work that was being unused, the only criticism I have it the fact I often feel the need to clean it as dirt and hair on white is extremely visible. And with the transparent sides you can see every minuscule particle.

I had it, and I didn't like it. It felt like there was bubblegum under the keys.

I never liked these. I know some that do, but the keys cannot be compared to the older Apple Extended Keyboard, they have a completely different feel. Also, as mentioned, the resistance seems to increase with age.

I also use an original Apple Extended Keyboard. Mine features a surprisingly simple hardware hack to convert the mechanical Caps Lock into a Control key.

One feature of this keyboard that I unfortunately discovered by accident is that the Command+Control+Power keystroke does a hard reboot on modern Macs, just as it did on the old Mac SE and Apple IIgs.

Definitely a matter of taste, I have the newer style Apple keyboard on all my keyboards for the same reason, my hands get tired almost immediately when I have to use something else. The key travel (especially on the ergonomic ones) seems excessive.

1) Their "regular" keyboards work just fine with Macs (see the link in 2) for more;

2) The Das Keyboard is nice but still not as good as Model M / Unicomp SpaceSaver: http://jseliger.com/2009/11/01/product-review-das-keyboard/ . I used the review copy with an iMac.

3) Virtually any mechanical keyboard is a HUGE improvement on the default keyboards that most manufacturers ship.

I don't know about that. The current Apple keyboards are fantastic once you get used to them. My only complaint is that the caps wear down slightly faster than other keyboards because the plastic flakes off more easily under heavy wear.

If you're a mechanical nut, you still have the Matias Tactile Pro (http://matias.ca/tactilepro3/index.php) which has the added bonus of not just the proper keycaps, but the indicators for the additional characters possible with option and shift.

I cannot deal with the action on the "new" Apple keyboards. It's like typing on a pane of glass, it hurts like hell because you have to press the key to nearly its fullest extension to actuate it, and then your finger comes to an abrupt halt. They could be the very best scissor type keyboards ever made and I still couldn't use them for long without getting shooting pains.

You barely need to press the keys though... I guess everyone has their own tastes, but I find the modern Apple keyboards to be the best keyboards I've ever used. The low key travel and resistance means I apply much less strength than I would on a normal keyboard, which makes it much lighter to type on.

If you're trained to touch-type on cherry or topre keyswitches, you're not going to be able to use a non-mechanical keyboard. The muscle action is just different; you're using your muscles to slow your fingers at the bottom of each keystroke rather than applying the energy all at once to your desk. This honestly doesn't make much difference to me, but I know many people who are more sensitive that do notice the difference. To each, his own.

(Analogy: punch the wall as hard as you possibly can. Then do the same action, but slow your fist down as quickly as possible so that it doesn't hit the wall. That's the difference between membrane keyboards and Cherry/Topre/IBM keyboards.)

But the Apple keyboards are mechanical - just with less give. The analogy is more that in one case, you have to punch a heavy hanging weight and get it to hit the wall, whereas in the next case, you can just quickly flick it with your finger to achieve the same effect.

I'm "trained to touch-type" on old keyboards, since I learned to touch-type when I was a teenager playing MUDs and there were none of these newfangled Apple keyboards. And yet, I made the transition without even thinking about it. It's not an iPad keyboard, it's a real keyboard with real keys in all the right places, and you don't have to smash it quite so hard, but it's still "mechanical"...

This is the reason I've come to like them. The travel is super short so you can kind of just tap at them instead of having to hammer down. Older membrane or mechanical keyboards would require some serious effort to fully depress the key, and if you didn't develop a heavy-handed habit you'd often miss letters.

I have a pet theory that Apple's iterations of shorter, thinner, lower travel keyboards is just training us slowly for the day when a glass keyboard is the de-facto standard.

The only trouble I have with the iPad-sized keyboard, which is virtually the same in terms of layout, is that accidental taps are much easier. It's like handling a loaded gun, you can't leave your fingers lazying about. If it required a certain amount of force, just jog the motion sensor slightly, and had a slight tactile feel to the keys, it might end up being even better.

Keep in mind that the Das and Model M are vastly different keyboards. The Model M switches require a bone-crushing 80g to activate the switches, while the Cherry switches are in the 50g range. Compare this to the 30g activation pressure on a Topre Realforce's pinky keys.

(Yes, I know that key activation pressure is measured in newtons, not grams, but since we're all on Earth here, we can deal :)

It's interesting to analyze what that decided to put on the front page as their key features:

- 3 points (#2, #3 and #8) related to USB functionality

- 3 essentially identical points (#5, #6 and #7) about what type of keys they have

- Only points #1 and #4 are something that could be considered as real differentiator by a layman

- Gold-plated contacts are mentioned 4(!) times on the first page - I wonder if they provide any advantage over silver or metal ones

- They also mention Darth Vader(!) somewhere on their front page

- They also have a chart that should communicate some additional value that the keyboard provides (and it probably does)

Overall, my impression is that they overdid their marketing. Thoughts?

Update: They also mention (in a system requirements sections that nobody reads) that to use the hub functionality, you would need to occupy two ports of your mac, not one, which somewhat lessens the value proposition

Silver is a fantastic conductor, better than copper, but tarnishes far too quickly for contacts that are expected to actuate consistently over a prolonged period of time. This is a problem because silver oxides are poor conductors (as are copper oxides). Gold is an inferior conductor to silver and copper, but not by that much and it doesn't tarnish. But is it relevant? That depends on the technology you build the keyboard out of, but I think the answer is probably a firm "maybe".

As far as technology: there are basically three major varieties. One has a plastic membrane that separates two conductive surfaces; physical pressure forces the two surfaces in contact and actuates the key. These are usually fairly large contact surfaces and also are relatively sealed, but you can get situations where you need to press harder on the key to get it to actuate, and if little bits of crap get between the surfaces then the key is pretty well dead. There are a variety of ways of forcing that actuation; simple physical pressure (your microwave pad), a plunger (less prone to troublesome false actuations), the scissor switches you see in laptops or the modern Apple keyboards, but they're all basically similar as far as electrical conductivity and tend to fail in relatively similar ways.

The Model M is actually a membrane like this under the surface, but the membrane is almost totally sealed off and is operated by extremely reliable and powerful (well, for a keyboard) actuator--the buckling spring operates a small lever in the guts of the keyboard, pressing the devices in contact. As a result they get excellent lifetime and a very consistent and desirable action. The size of the lever and the distance between the key and the actuation (and also the sheer size of a Model M) mean that the contact surfaces can be relatively large. Earlier IBM keyboards used a capacitive action which is very rare today; the only one I know of is the Happy Hacking Keyboard.

The Cherry MX switches the Das uses have a mechanical switch that makes and breaks contact on every keystroke. They are mechanically more compact than the buckling spring type with similarly desirable key action, but the switch means they need to be made in a very durable way. Cherry says the MXs are good for 50 million operations; I don't know how many operations IBM guaranteed theirs for but I'm sitting next to one made in 1989 so I presume it is "a lot".

Which is a lot of words to say that "gold might make a difference and anyway Cherry doesn't sell good switches without the gold plating and they're the only people of any repute making those type of keys any more".

Edit: one other further irritation for people who type fast; N-key rollover is a term you may have heard of. On a PS/2 keyboard, you can literally activate every key on the keyboard at once and the computer can track them all. This is because the PS/2 tracks key up and key down events but doesn't try to keep state so much. USB does and because of this true N-key rollover is impossible without custom software on both ends; the best we can do is I think six, so in this case the Das is state of the art, such as it is. Supposedly the v4 Sidewinder got around this, probably through a custom driver mode.

Thanks so much for very informative reply!

Technically the Das Keyboard Ultimate (ie blank keys) is already mac-compatible because the appropriate keys would automatically be assigned.

Even the keys for volume, iTunes, brightness, and Mission Control?

Well there is an option for Fx keys as Fx keys instead of shortcuts in Preferences.app

But this keyboard, even if it supposedly designed for the mac, won't get my money: - weird FN keys where the right control stands, instead of the leftmost part like on most laptops (including macbooks) - eject key way too close to backspace. (really, what could go wrong especially where the delete key is - and while the mac can use a proper delete key?) - no KP_Equal key

Basically, they took the PC version, didn't change the molds (expansive!!) and just printed some mac-like labels on the key.

A cheap hack, not worth $133.

I'll keep my non mechanical (non gold platted, not approved by Darth Vader) Apple USB keyboard - http://www.amazon.com/Apple-109-Key-Version-Keyboard-1003199...

And they do also come with a USB hub and work fine even of the newest OSX such as Lion

I can see there being a market. My mom buys all her crap if and only if it says "Mac compatible" on the box. I remind her that it's all the same hardware standards these days, but the persecution complex that was ingrained in her from the bad old 1990s--countless ADB input devices, a IIsi with its own flavor of NuBus, and then later a couple awful Performas with funky PDS slots--she's just used to assuming that hardware just won't work unless it's specifically blessed as Apple compatible.

> My mom buys all her crap if and only if it says "Mac compatible" on the box. I remind her that it's all the same hardware standards these days

Indeed in most cases, but keyboards are something else entirely. If you regularly switch between a MacBook keyboard and a workstation (be it PC or Mac) it's a pain to have the layout, spacing and position being almost the same save for a bunch of keys that bite you back hard. Especially on non-US layouts (precisely, french).

That's why I strive to use mac-layout keyboards even on PCs. And really, while the US mac layout is quite close to the PC one, the french ones are significantly different, and the Mac one simply makes more sense. Ironically it's extremely hard to find non-Apple non-US Mac layout keyboard.

> Well there is an option for Fx keys as Fx keys instead of shortcuts in Preferences.app

If you've plugged an Apple keyboard into a Windows box you know that they don't just send the standard function key codes. I don't think that the PC version's function keys would just work as volume and iTunes keys on a Mac. And even if they did you would have to remember where they are, and how they are different from your MacBook keyboard. Apple routinely shuffles things around. Is F4 a Dashboard key or a LaunchPad key?

> But this keyboard, even if it supposedly designed for the mac, won't get my money

Ok.

> Basically, they took the PC version, didn't change the molds (expansive!!) and just printed some mac-like labels on the key.

I'm certain they would have to send different key codes in order to be truly compatible, as they claim to be.

> A cheap hack, not worth $133.

If someone wants Das Keyboard and also wants the function keys and such to work correctly then maybe it is worth $133 to them. It's not to me, but I can see how it is to some. Even if all they did was change the caps and key codes that could be very valuable to some people. If I were a fan of Das Keyboard I would probably shell out for one.

I use the "ultimate" model (blank keys) just fine with my Mac Mini and MacBook Air, no issues.

HHKB has DIP switches to select mac/non-mac modes. Mac mode works well in Linux as well. Also: Small footprint, if you can live without a number pad. I love the feel.

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhk...

FYI, you also have the option of using the standard Das, and just switching the Alt and Command keys in the Apple keyboard settings dialog (under special keys). It is really easy to use a PC keyboard with a Mac seamlessly. Wish the same was true of the other way around.

Are you referring to Apple's Alu keyboard? I'm using Matias TactilePro Mac keyabord at work, on a typical Windows PC. No issues here - Command becomes Win and all is well.

Right: command is in the wrong place w.r.t. a typical Windows keyboard. There's no simple built-in option in the OS to fix this.

They're not kidding when they say their keyboards make an audible "click" sound... they also sell:

Reusable Earplugs: "Multi-use, comfortable earplugs for co-workers or significant others of Das Keyboard Professional or Das Keyboard Ultimate users."

When will we finally get rid of the numerical pad?

The now discontinued HP mini keyboard [1] was exactly as I thought all the keyboards would had been past 2005. Exactly the full size layout, just without the unnecessary numerical pad whose only use it to keep the mouse far away from my right hand.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/HP-AS601AA-ABA-Mini-Keyboard/dp/B0025Z...

You never miss keypads ... until you want to play a roguelike.

Or until you're an accountant.

I would buy a separate USB "numpad" and keep it on my other desk, where I can reach it easily but it doesn't get in the way of my mouse.

It's not all bad though. Playing NetHack on my laptop is how I got really good at moving around in vi.

Plenty of companies (Filco, Leopold, PFU / Fujitsu (Happy Hacking), Topre, etc.) offer 'tenkeyless' versions of their boards that are without the numeric keypad.

But what if you have to enter a bunch of numbers?

They've had a Linux key option [1] for a while :) Much more awesome. I considered getting them even though I have the blank version (which is, incidentally, great).

[1]: http://store.daskeyboard.com/Linux-Key-Caps-2-keys/dp/B004JP...

I use a unicomp (http://pckeyboard.com/) buckling spring keyboard. You can order an apple key from them if you'd like.

They also appear to have an apple-specific model (unless this is the one you're talking about): http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/onthestick.html

The one pictured is hideously ugly, though.

I switched from a Model M to the default iMac keyboard (the wired one with the number pad) back in August when I switched to from linux to an iMac and it's taken me until just recently, to get used to it. I still don't like the feel of the keyboard quite as much and have been tempted to buy the Unicomp keyboard many times. That said, I do find it more comfortable than most other non-mechanical keyboards out there.

I've had several offers from people wanting to buy the Model M, but I refuse to part with it, even if I'm not using it at this very moment. I found it years ago, in the back of a storage shed, covered in about a decade of dust, grease, and cob webs, cleaned it up, and it looks practically new and works perfectly. I do so love that keyboard.

> The one pictured is hideously ugly, though.

You can order a customized version. I have a custom Unicomp EnduraPro with blank keycaps (like a Das Ultimate) and they also reprogrammed it (i.e.: I wanted to swap CapsLock with left Ctrl and Tilde/Backtick with Esc).

I can't recommend them highly enough.

Is it hideously loud like a lot of the other mechanical keyboards mentioned in this thread. Safe for office use?

Yes, it's very loud. Every buckling spring keyboard I've ever used is loud, but I can type so much faster on it that I can't stand anything else.

Why would somebody buy this? It just sounds like a step backwards in keyboard design to make keyboards that contribute to noise pollution. I hope Apple does produce more ergonomic keyboards in the future. In my honest opinion the Microsoft Natural Keyboard is probably the best Keyboard created thus far and I have yet to see anyone innovate any further since it was released 10 years ago: http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-A11-00337-Natural-Keyboard-E...

Does anyone know of a good mechanical keyboard which also has a mouse num between the keys. Or should I be convinced of why that is such a horrible idea.

Do you mean with a trackpoint? The Unicomp EnduraPro has buckling spring keys and trackpoint nub between the G, H, and B:

http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PCK&Sc...

damn, I just switched to a microsoft 4000 ergo keyboard. I'm tempted to order one of these now because I don't think I'm sold on the ergo arrangement yet (I've only had it about a week though). Wish I saved the box for that keyboard :/

Anyone used both and can convince me not to order one of the Das'?

I guess the Cherry keyboards use the same mechanism (duh) and are less expensive. Just my 2 cents.

I don't own a Das; instead I have two of Unicomp's (http://pckeyboard.com) keyboards. Either one is miles more comfortable to type on than anything else I've ever used, most certainly including the Microsoft ergo keyboards. That said I should note that I'm partial to making a hell of a racket typing and I really really like the buckling spring action. If for some reason you don't want to sound like an entire rifle company out for a day at the range the quiet Cherry switches are pretty much the only game in town, and you might as well get them from Das as from anywhere else.

FWIW: The Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 was causing me RSI (I found the spacebar too hard to hit and several keys started malfunctioning after nearly one year). Design-wise I found it good enough (especially for the palm rest and layout as a whole) but I think they should seriously reconsider the quality of their key switches.

I since then switched to a customized keyboard made by Unicomp and couldn't look back. The buckling springs may feel a little bit too hard at first, but over time I found them to soften.

Stop Sopa! Black out your keyboard!

Only ships to the US? Lame.

They have resellers around the place, where are you located?

http://www.daskeyboard.com/where-to-buy/

They have a "Where to buy"-link near the top right corner: http://www.daskeyboard.com/where-to-buy/

I've successfully bought a Das Keyboard from GetDigital: http://www.getdigital.de/products/Das_Keyboard_Model_S

It even let me brush up on my German :)

This keyboard is so noisy that my coworkers wanted to kill me...

Yeah, I was burned by the same problem with the razer mechanical keyboards. No noticeable keypress feel improvement, and hideously loud; waste of money.

Have you tried a keyboard with the MX Cherry Browns, instead of Blues? They say they have very similar tactile response, but the browns don't "click" so loudly. http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-silent/

The browns are still pretty noisy for a quiet office environment. My vote for a mechanical keyboard with good feel that won't disturb workmates is the Topre line.

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