A question I pose to these people- after Ukraine what other land is Putin allowed to grab?
Just how inhuman can you people be?
What happens when ukraine runs out of soldiers to carry the shit we send there? will YOU take their place? just how inhuman can you be, after all? and if russia wins, how many died that wouldnt have needed to. how inhuman can we be then? or is it then fine that they died?
It might work for your conscience but if we put either of you in charge the outcome for those 40 million people is functionally the same. Distinct maybe, different no.
It's not worth dying for NATO membership or an ukrainian Crimea. And nobody should be forced to fight in any war.
It is about cost/benefit.
If Ukraine would tell: We are looking for a compromise (no NATO membership, Crimea belongs to Russia, ...), I could change my mind and support them.
If Russia would invade another country there's a new cost/benefit ratio.
And I think Russia will not invade any western country. I live in Germany and I'm not scared of Russia. They (Soviet Union actually) left East Germany peacefully.
This is truer then you know, the world must make the cost of Russia trying to take over another country so expensive both financially and militarily that they do not try this again.
Don't forget Ukraine is not the first, Russia has invaded and sometimes even entirely annexed countries in the past.
> If Ukraine would tell: We are looking for a compromise (no NATO membership, Crimea belongs to Russia, ...), I could change my mind and support them.
Ukraines mere existence is what upsets Russia, it's the reason for this war. It has nothing to do with Crimea and nothing to do with NATO.
Russia wants all of Ukraine, they want to subjugate them completely.
"Next, Putin put massive pressure on the new government in Kiev to discourage it from siding with the West against Moscow, making it clear that he would wreck Ukraine as a functioning state before he would allow it to become a Western stronghold on Russia’s doorstep."
This is happening now.
"Russia wants all of Ukraine, they want to subjugate them completely."
I don't think so. Russia annexed the territory it really wants. If Ukraine demilitarizes they would make a deal.
https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t...
How can you possibly make a lasting deal with a country that wipes their arse with international agreements when it’s no longer convenient for them?.
If you think a “deal” with Russia would do anything other then let it rearm itself and reinvade the rest of the country I have a bridge to sell you.
After all, Russia already promised to never invade Ukraine and to never never threaten the sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nukes.
How well did that “deal” go for Ukraine?.
> I don't think so. Russia annexed the territory it really wants. If Ukraine demilitarizes they would make a deal.
Then you haven’t been listening to what the Russians have been openly saying on tv themselves.
The Russians are very open about how Ukraine is a fake state, how it is a mistake and how its cultural identity should be destroyed.
There's propaganda everywhere and it is hard to get the real picture.
I checked the Russia/Ukraine Peace negotiations of 2022 (Wikipedia). Russia seemed to be interested in striking a deal. (1)
And I agree: a deal makes no sense if you can't trust your adversary.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_pe...
-- Actually I'm not capable getting the official position of Russia towards negotiations. For example I can't parse this statement of Peskov:
I meant "western" geographically here.
I'm sure Russia won't invade the Baltics.
But I'm not sure that Russia will never invade Azərbaycan. (Azərbaycan has oil and is not in NATO and frome time to time they attack Armenia or Armenia attacks Azərbaycan).
I remember the second (Putin's) war in Tschetschenia. I've known since 20 years that Russia/Putin is ruthless.
How to deal with Russia? I actually opt for appeasement and containment.
Ie repeating the steps that led to the current war (and a couple of previous ones). You expect a different outcome next time?
You can't fight it down completely, because of nukes. You can't destroy Russia's military industry.
I would treat it as a smaller and lighter version of the Soviet Union. NATO did not interfere in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland back then. These countries are free now which is great.
Countries like Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan should try not to poke the bear and should not gamble that NATO will bail them out.
This is bad. Maybe it will get better with smart politics but it sure get's worse with bad politics.
For a second I thought you were describing the Ukrainian government bombing the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine since 2014.
what do you propose doing about russia invading ukraine, besides war?
Also, what is it? is russia 100% incompetent, or is it a fiendish foe? We have had to hear for a year now about how russia is so totally inept that ukranian farmers are victorious against them using nothing both farming tractors, but at the same time the west must send ungodly amounts of money and material their way, and there is no victory. Which one is it?
It seems the west is willing to fight to the last ukranian.
I just dont see how the west meddling here is gonna make any outcome better. So far nothing indicates I am wrong.
And it's Ukraine itself that wants their territories back, including Crimea and Donbass. Making it hard to negotiate. But also understandable, once you start giving in, you're giving Russia an incentive to do it all over again and capture now territory.
Not just Russia. If Russia succeeds, China is invading Taiwan next, and the whole global economy is grinding to a halt because like 80 % of world semiconductor industry is there.
Saving Ukraine means saving the world.
They'll sneak their way in just like they're rapidly expanding their influence in Africa, buying European ports and airports etc. Their tactics are completely different and our response must be as well. Of course long-term planning is the biggest weakness of democracies and the CCP's strength. So I doubt we'll be able to prevent it.
The way Xi screwed the pooch on Hong Kong, something Beijing was without controversy entitled to, looks more like an impatient dictator than the China of decades prior.
However his life is finite and I wonder if he wanted some legacy. Similar to the reason why Putin attacked Ukraine.
"The west" isn't fighting unless you mean "the west" = Ukraine and nothing else.
The west sending weapons reduces the amount of Ukrainians who are killed by Russians or under Russian occupation.
This is unambiguously a good thing.
Here: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum.... Russia already lost about half of its entire available land forces.
It's going to be a long war, though. It's effectively been running for a decade already.
Assuming China will attack Taiwan in the meantime, which I think is a lot more likely than not, it seems the world is looking at a lot of war indeed, perhaps even global. Even more senseless killing while issues like the climate and global poverty will lose the little relevance they have now. The future seems really sad.
The future seems sad yes, but this situation didn't appear out of nowhere. The dragon seed in Russia (and China) has been growing for decades.
but maybe they're actually not? if they're losing, this is how it'll be reported to you: they're winning -> they're winning -> they've nearly won -> *silence for years* -> ukraine is now part of russia, bringing the decades-long quagmire to an end.
Aside from arming Ukraine for a decisive victory what do you propose the rest of the world do?.
recall that i was responding to someone saying that anti-war folks are actually pro-genocide and anti-west. so, from the anti-war perspective, if what you want is peace, (which is what anti-war means), then "arming ukraine for a decisive victory" is what, exactly? it's giving ukraine weapons, or, to put it in other words: it's giving money to weapons manufacturers.
if you think giving money to weapons manufacturers will lead somehow to peace, then i don't know what to tell you.
you could shorten the war by aiding russia, but obviously no one wants that. that would genuinely encourage violence, like when the united states aids saudi arabia against the people of yemen.
since the rest of the world can't make choices on russia's behalf, the only thing to be done, from an anti-war perspective, is to mitigate the damage russia does to ukraine, and encourage, through non-violent means, a cessation of violence.
arming ukraine is the opposite of that.
what else could the united states do? (or whatever country, i'll just go with the united states for the sake of brevity.) the united states could invade ukraine too, to counter russia. would that end the russia-ukraine war? no, it would just start the america-russian war.
all i'm trying to convey is that anti-war people are, probably, for the most part, actually just that. conversely, if you're pro-ukraine, or anti-russia, or anti-ukraine, or pro-russia, you are, probably, for the most part, actually not anti-war. you have other priorities, which is your business, not mine. but i won't just be called pro-genocide by someone who's gotten themselves all worked up into a froth for war.
If you think that sitting back and doing nothing will somehow let Ukrainians have a better life then you do not know the realities of living under Russian rule.
I find it strange that this kind of appeasement and bowing to another power to let them do what they please is so popular now just like it was in WW2.
Appeasing the fascists didn’t work then and it work now, the thing that stops countries like Russia is military defeat.
1) Most startup people are just evil
2) HN is heavily controlled by Russia
The latter is pretty obvious (we're talking English discussion platform where you can create account in ten seconds with no verification and I'm not sure if there's any anti-bot measures).
The former ... most programmers are rich and they are convinced they are rich because they are awesome instead of lucky. Most programmers aren't very social or have emotional intelligence. Most programmers think they are better than others and are prone to "fuck you, got mine" thinking. And look how many startups are based on doing extremely exploitative and illegal things - Uber with illegal cabs, Airbnb with illegal hotels, and so on. Of course those people don't give a shit about suffering.