Comment by wallflower | Hacker News Reader

Comment by wallflower | Hacker News Reader

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When I talk with friends and acquaintances who say they want to learn a language, I always tell them it will be one of the most difficult and rewarding things they will ever do. Number one, you will literally vomit out words in the beginning that make no grammatical sense and stink to high heaven in terms of language non-ability. Two, you have to break away from Duolingo. Like learning Scratch for programming, Duolingo is only going to get you better at Duolingo type games and quizzes. If you really want to learn a language, you have to invest in live practice with a native speaker. In the near future, this could become a conversational AI. For now, go find a reasonable native speaker on iTalki. Practice at least twice a week. Do not practice with friends or family as it will be frustrating for both sides. Pay someone. Third, learning a programming language compared to a human language is difficult because there is shame and embarrassment connected with messing up for most people. As you continue to vomit out your beginner language, you will eventually ascend to the intermediate level. Like L5 at Google, many of you will never make it to advanced level. I think that is quite ok. You really do not have to be able to understand live standup comedy in your chosen second language. The ability to communicate thoughts, dreams, fears, and stories will be enough. It took me about 3 years to get to that level of being able to argue politics and economics in Spanish. I freely admit my accent is gringo (never gonna be able to roll Rs) and I still make mistakes and sometimes accents make it hard to listen. You are never going to get to 100% comprehension. 80/90% depending on the situation.

> You are never going to get to 100% comprehension. 80/90% depending on the situation.

Key insight, people should set the realistic goal of being at most as good as their native language.

I can confidently say, in my native language, there are many times throughout daily life where I have way less than 80/90% comprehension. The other key insight though is that I can remove that ambiguity with follow up questions and elaboration if I want.

And that's what people should strive for when learning a second language. Once you get to the point where you can learn in and with the language, then you're golden. That requires far far less effort than most people estimate.

I agree with you on the need for follow up questions when you don't understand the situation.

Yes, learning new content with the language is key. Laddering is a term used when you are learning a new 3rd language through your 2nd language. For example, learning French through French for Spanish speakers-type material.

The 80/90% comprehension ballpark figure was more about how much you can understand without looking it up. For example, when I watch a reality TV show like Gran Hermano (Big Brother reality TV series) where there is a lot of regional accents, rapid-fire repartee, idioms, street talk, I can struggle to figure out what was just said. The same goes for a standup comedy show in Spanish with the cultural contexts, inside jokes. On the opposite end of comprehension would be an evening news program where everything is said in a structured manner and the diction is as close to neutral/perfect for the greater region of the news broadcast.

Additionally, the environment matters. A crowded noisy bar can rapidly beat up your confidence of being able to communicate. The Foreign Service foreign language ability scales do account for this.

Duolingo is fine, you just have to be aware of its limitations. Getting the trophy isn’t going to represent the finish line of most peoples language goals, but it’s a decent start.

Duolingo is a great start. It takes a lot of effort to get those trophies. I think they are getting better with AI/ML to interactively tutor you as well. Personally, if you can afford in-person or virtual practice with a native speaker twice a week (about $30-40/week via iTalki), I think that is when you make the jump from dabbling in a language to becoming a serious student.

I’ve found it best to learn the basics through something like duolingo, and then follow that in with a tutor once there’s a base of vocabulary to go off of.

Obviously a tutor is great, but the cost and time of a tutor isn’t worth it at the beginning stages for me personally.

I'm learning a language now. It's tough and embarrassing, and what it takes to keep getting better seems to change as I move along.

Something that was formative in my understanding of language was visiting Glasgow years past, and realizing that just an "accent" could easily knock me back to understanding only 20-30% of words. Still, based on context it was possible to get around and after a week I was up to 70-80% comprehension with locals.

In the UK, it isn't necessarily accent per-say.

In North England and Scotland, we pronounce words using short vowel sounds (bath, castle) whereas in the South, they use long vowel sounds (b-are-th, c-are-stle).

Not being able to easily pick out the vowel sounds makes it much harder for a non-native speaker to understand.

The so called "BBC English" that you probably learnt is based on a Southern England 'home counties' pronunciation.

You may also hear BBC English called "The Queens English"or just Queens English.

Kings English old chap :-)

It's not clear to me how regional differences in vowel pronunciation differ from accents.

> It's tough and embarrassing

You've got this. Try to remember to record yourself speaking periodically with others so that you can see how much you are improving.

> visiting Glasgow years past

I remember being in Gatwick airport and hearing my first heavily-accented English. Maybe it was a Scottish brogue. I could not really understand anything.

> (never gonna be able to roll Rs)

Curious about this. Presumably you've given it plenty of effort after more than 3 years of Spanish study. Where do you feel that you're stuck, and what have you tried?

I haven't tried recently. I always got stuck on the vibrating the tongue on/near the roof of the mouth. The technical term for rolling Rs is "voiced alveolar trill". I have tried a variety of techniques over the years and maybe it is time to revisit them again by trying out some Youtube videos. Right now, I just use the "d" sound as a substitute, as in a rapid "d-d-d" is an approximation of rolled Rs.

A few of my friends who know will tease me now and then by trilling their r's in conversation. It always simultaneously makes me jealous and in awe. I know that Spanish elementary schools have young students practice tongue twisters as maybe it is not a natural skill for all kids. "Un perro rompe la rama del árbol"

Perhaps related, I am struggle with unassisted lip trills [1] which is a key technique to improve your breath control/singing. Unassisted is when you don't press your fingers to your cheeks. I really struggle with unassisted lip trills and run out of oxygen quickly (5 seconds). The idea with unassisted lip trills is you can trill a song phrase on a single breath (15-20 sec, sometimes longer).

[1] How to do the lip trill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNPp-RS4IY

Nearly started making these sounds before I realised I'm on a busy train and caught myself. Oops.

If it helps at all, in my experience of learning to do alveolar trills, the key was finding the precise amount of resistance to apply with my tongue. That is, the muscles hold still and the flow of air is what moves it. I think that means that the base position for the tongue is forming a light seal against the alveolar ridge and upper gums. If you get the pressure right, when you vocalise, the flow of air will briefly push your tongue out of the way then allow it to snap back, and if you get the pressure exactly right, you'll get a pleasing trill sound.

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