Codecademy Partners With The White House | Hacker News Reader

Codecademy Partners With The White House

blog.codecademy.com

93 pointsbproper56 comments

Today, we’re proud to announce that we will be working with the White House to get more kids and adults learning to code. With their Summer Jobs+ program, the White House has been working on finding jobs for hundreds of thousands of people over the summer.

Did anyone else's stomach turn when they read this part? I think it's great that Codecademy want to help people learn to code and are effectively reaching such a large audience. However, I also think it's absolutely revolting that such a program exists at the federal government level. I think that's ridiculously beyond the scope of what the government should be doing.

Remove some/most/all of the hindrances to running a business and hiring employees (convoluted and rage-inducing tax and HR regulations) so that more businesses would be willing and able to launch, expand, and hire. That would create jobs, including probably thousands of coding jobs.

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You think it's beyond the scope of government to be assisting low-skilled people to gain skills and employment in quality jobs in industries with a future? I don't.

By all means reduce regulation to encourage job growth, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't think there's much a government of 350 million people can actively do to help here. Any practical, on-the-ground effort is bound to drown in bureaucracy.

But this is not, as I read between the lines, what is going on here: This is a PR/photo-op thing where the White House puts it's considerable PR clout behind CodeAcademy's meetup push - maybe there's some spare change to hire a couple of CA coordinators, but nothing significant.

Okay. Let's try a government that conforms to your scope. No welfare, so employment is necessary for survival. No mandates for health insurance, facility safety or minimum wage.

A few already-wealthy individuals form companies that offer jobs with 18-hour days, no weekends, no vacation, no health insurance, and just enough pay to keep the employees alive. Anyone who can't work (even for medical reasons, or because of the employer's negligence) is left to die on the street, their position easily filled by a new hire. Employers realize that, so long as nobody starts it, competition is voluntary. Any startup threatening to raise the market value of labor is quickly purchased and disbanded or undercut on price until it fails. Those few people become fabulously wealthy until everyone else catches on and nobody can afford to buy things anymore.

Hm... sounds familiar. We went through this more than 100 years ago. Foxconn and other Chinese companies are still doing it. This is what happens when government doesn't step in with its "revolting" "hindrances" like making you pay people a living wage.

Stop whining about government and come up with a business plan that doesn't depend on slavery.

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Consumer protections aren't what set programmer wages at $100/hr+. Your entire premise is wrong.

Eh, I'll bite. We've got a bunch of entrepreneurs here-- has anyone reading this tried to start a business, overcome every major impediment to that goal, and been on the cusp of true success, only to be foiled by the insurmountable obstacle of government paperwork?

I won't argue that the government makes running a business easier, or that there aren't legitimately oppressive or protectionist regulations that should be taken off the books. But if a failed business owner tries to tell me that they would have gotten away with it if only they didn't have to pay taxes or comply with labor laws, well... That sounds to me like a business I'm just as happy doesn't exist.

It's not preventing me, but it periodically takes me away from more important things and makes my company less efficient. It's not the most important thing they could do, but it would be an accross-the-board efficiency gain, and simplifying things would likely close some of the tax loopholes.

There are many countries with little business oversight or regulations. They are not the places intl investors want to put their money into.

That's not the cause of those places being bad places to invest - that's much more because of corruption, which has nothing to do with a lack of regulations on the books.

I'm not advocating for absolute laissez-faire, I was just saying that the current business regulations are a clusterfuck, and are in need of a good cleaning out.

It clearly seems one party in the USA is advocating for regulatory cleansing. As you stated, lack of regulations and corruption are often found in the same place, one can see WHY regulation is needed, now more than ever, as this world becomes more complex, populated, polluted, and markets game-able.

No, I'm saying that you can't use a correlation like that as justification for saying that we need more regulations. In a country like the US, where the tolerance for overt, obvious corruption is very low, adding more complexity to the regulatory system creates more places for corruption to hide, thus making it more feasible. The tax code is a great example of this, but the same can be said for many of the regulatory agencies.

Yeah, this is basically where I'm coming from-- I don't doubt it's inconvenient, and surely we could boost efficiency (and compliance!) by making compliance more convenient. Totally with you on that. It's just when someone suggests that the inconvenience of complying with the law means the law ought to go, I start wondering whose side they're really on.

As someone who's just spent the past few months dealing with year-end paperwork at the city, state, federal and corporate level (the paperwork required to set up a 401(k) is incredible), I can honestly say paperwork required to start up and run a business is not a hinderance to starting up and running a business.

What is a hinderance? Finding talent. What would make that easier? Universal healthcare. More retirement security. A better education system. More open borders. Those three items would lead to a more fluid and talented work force, which is exactly what I need.

Removing paperwork? Meh. Yes, I wish the state of CA was less inept and more streamlined, and I wish setting up a business took only one click on a website. But the paperwork and regulations certainly are not preventing me from continuing with my business, and some of them are at least helping ensure I live the lifestyle that I do.

I agree with your point, but I think directing it at the White House program is somewhat harsh. Judging by its description[1], it seems to me more like a program to alleviate the problem of frictional unemployment[2] (something that even the most conservative economists would agree is a policy problem[3]). Sure, getting rid of regulations would increase the demand for labor (more businesses => more jobs available), but that still leaves the problem of whether the supply of labor is correctly trained/prepared/etc. for the jobs available.

[1] http://www.dol.gov/SummerJobs/

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frictional_unemployment

[3] http://books.google.com/books?id=-X6YnkmadD4C&pg=PA214&#...

Wow, these guys have had incredible success in the press, almost as if they were first to market. Since they aren't, and there are many sites doing things like this already, I wonder what the secret is.

Is it their investors? Is it the name? Is it something I'm missing?

I agree with you, I'm confused as to why they're constantly talked about. The idea is nothing new and there's plenty of competition. Personally, I think it's just the industry's current shiny thing.

Regarding the constant press, I'd be willing to bet it's the investors. Money talks, right?

Geez, way to be so cynical guys.

I think it's because they have a great UI, they respond to feedback, they've worked hard at marketing it, they impressed some VCs, and all the million other reasons that start-ups succeed. Don't complain about it, ask why.

You mean, skills and luck, right? For me this remembers Youtube, not the first but the most famous of them.

We can build causal histories but maybe they exist just because they make sense not because they're true.

EDIT: I added the second paragraph.

My point is not that the product is bad, but that there are many products just as good, hitting the same demo.

I'm sure the team is great and the investors are great, but let's be honest, the product is fairly light right now. The UI is nifty, but there's nothing special about it.

I'm not trying to knock the guys, I'm simply trying to determine why they've become such media darlings without really having delivered anything.

Please share these other products with us. I genuinely want to know - out of curiosity and because Codecademy tops out too quickly as it is (I had a relative of mine try it out.)

Here's a quick list:

http://teamtreehouse.com http://tryruby.org which I believe is an extension of http://codeschool.com http://learncodethehardway.com

Then of course there are sites like Peepcode, Udemy, and a host of others that offer tutorials, which aren't quite the same, but stil serve the same purpose.

I'm sure there are more I don't know of.

check out www.trybloc.com

But that is not how one gets government endorsement. It happens through connections and contributions(of the $$ kind).

I'm confused ... who is their competition?

What other sites make learning this stuff easy and fun for the masses? Also offer it as a free service? I'm not aware of others...

Saw http://coderace.me on techcrunch which is similar. Also stumbled upon http://CodePupil.com yesterday on programming zen.

Though I think there closest competitor is teamtreehouse but it's not free. I did subscribe to treehouse for a month but I preferred Codecademy's style of teaching.

I'm Codecademy's cofounder. I can tell you our investors have very little to do with our press - we've used them rarely, if ever, to get press thus far.

One factor you aren't thinking about in this is the founders. I know one of them personally, and let me tell you. He is amazing. On the day I met him I knew he would be very successful.

I agree. Codeschool.com is way cooler (for now at least) and codecademy is slaughtering them in the press.

Does Codeschool have as many people signed up as codecademy? That could be one reason for the press. I would guess Codecademy has more users because it's free and you can start learning within 10 seconds of landing on their homepage.

Tryruby.org has been doing that for years, has it not?

tryruby.org is totally unrelated. It's not directed learning - it just drops you into an REPL, what good does that do people who have never coded before (the primary audience of codecademy)? It has a help feature, but it's clearly not the main point or call to action.

Seems to me that they have a similar learning curve and call to action.

yep, not to mention tryruby is currently a codeschool activity.

Codecademy instructs you immediately. Tryruby has a tutorial hidden as a "help" link among other identical-looking links. It is not a clear call to action.

Codecademy appears (for now) to be entirely free - which is not the case at all for Codeschool.com. To me, a free site is "way cooler" (to use your expression) than one that requires a fairly pricey monthly subscription.

Codeschool.com has some free courses, so they already have way more "free" content than codecademy. The paid courses are just great addons to that.

The difference I see between CodeSchool and Codecademy is that Codecademy's front page is targeted to people with zero prior experience. CodeSchool on the other hand is pushing classes for learning CoffeeScript, jQuery, and Rails. People with no prior experience aren't going to know what the heck those are or why they should care. Codecademy's proposition on the other hand is straight forward, "Learn to code". Note there is no mention on their main page of what language. It's like they are doing for coding what Apple did for the PC marketing in the sense that Apple doesn't really focus on the processor memory details etc...

That's a great point. They seem to be the first to focus on the simplicity of the experience.

Curious to see what Resig does as well in this space with the Khan Acdemy's JS course.

The key difference is they took a broad approach vs. a narrow approach. Most sites like this focus on current developers - codeacademy has focused on non-programmers which makes a much better story.

IMO it is a combination of effective product, great marketing and hustle, well timed pr, air of inevitability making people forget their competitors. (disclaimer, Twilio is a Codecademy partner -- I suppose you could also read these as reasons why we are a partner)

So here's a question from someone getting ready to raise an Angel round. Do investors help bring groups together in this fashion, or am I reading into it too much?

I'm not saying that to judge, I truly want to know.

When you say well timed PR, how does that work? Is it a PR person on staff, or friends in high places? Coming from someone on the outside looking in, it's amazing, and I'd love to generate just a fraction of that type of publicity.

thanks, danielle!

In general, press for early stage startups is something you get because you work hard at it, have an effective strategy to get it, and (sometimes) have the resources to hire help to get it. In this way it is not unlike achieving success in other parts of building a startup. Very little of it is the press looking at all of the companies in the space and blessing the ones they deem best.

PG wrote an essay on this topic that's somewhat old but still on-point: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Edit: That said, I'd add that I disagree that there is nothing new or special about the Codecademy product vs. it's competitors. I'm not sure I really understand why it's better myself, but I have certainly seen it inspire and click well with more new coders than other such sites, so there's probably something I'm missing specifically because I'm not a beginner.

Thanks, mlinsey. I'm Codecademy's cofounder and I'm glad you've seen people enjoyed the experience. As you said, it is indeed something you get because you work hard at it.

have an effective strategy to get it

This is the part I'm trying to learn more about...

I'm Codecademy's cofounder - we work hard to make our product and we have a lot of satisfied users. As a lot of other people have alluded to, there's no "secret." We work all the time to build awesome stuff and we're lucky that people notice.

Who do you have running PR? As an entrepreneur, I'd love to know how you do it.

I'm sure CodeLesson is wondering where their White House endorsement is.

As someone interested in learning to code who ultimately signed up for Codeyear instead of Codeschool or Team Tree House:

-Codecademy offers to teach me how to build an app -Codeschool offers to teach me how a bunch of different programming languages (which is the easy part), with no clear instructions on how to put that together into an app -Teamtreehouse does offer to teach how to build an app, but they're full of videos. Their introduction to HTML lesson is 30 minutes of video!

So Codecademy has a massively better first impression than its competitors.

Yes I want a 100,000 people with no prior experience or proven talent in the area to take a few web-based tutorials and then start sending out those resumes for programming jobs.

They mention Los Angeles Code Academy meetups, I live in LA and know some people interested in learning to code, and in an admittedly brief search I haven't been able to find any evidence of such meetups.

The first meeting is on February 7th in Santa Monica:

http://www.meetup.com/codeyear/Los-Angeles-CA/

Wow! I just found out about Codecademy and immediately signed up! It looks pretty cool!

I basically have no programming experience, only a tiny bit.

Do you know what the requirements are to attend the meeting? Or what it'll be about?

Thanks for your help in advance!

Oh, I'm not Codecademy staff, I just read the post a bit more careful than jleader had.

Oh, my apologies. I was too excited and signed up quickly without reading it. Now that I have, it more or less answers my question: "You can meet weekly to discuss each Code Year lesson or whenever you’d like.".

Thanks, anyway! (:

Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed that!

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