Don’t force child care workers to get college degrees
fullstackeconomics.com
fullstackeconomics.com
I believe this credentialist industry is mainly driven by insurance companies and anti-competitive megacorps.
No, no I don't.
the irony is that in locales that require licenses, more unlicensed non-code compliant work is often done because there is no diy path. in many locales, building inspectors are readily available and happy to inspect homeowner work.
The fear is that without licensed professionals doing the work, the work will be done wrong. That’s absurd. To bring it a little closer to HN’s readership, those of us who program know that programmers, regardless of their formal education, can be amazing or terrible, and everything in-between.
Training and licensure only promise that time has been spent by the individual, and the latter only really promises that someone can be legally paid for the work.
The biggest issue we have here in not whether construction workers are skilled in their job, but whether they are reliable enough to turn up at the right time - but as I understand that's the same in the US too.
Credentials are rarely required by law; rather "relevant experience and/or qualifications" is the usual bar. Of course some professions are heavily regulated, I'm not talking about those.
But then, insurance is often required, or de facto required, and to get that, you need a qualification.
IME this leads to a lot of professions staffed with poorly-trained people, often not much bothered by the job, with one piece of paper showing a low-quality qualification, and another showing professional indemnity.
It also pushes actual regulation onto private entities with their own agendas, which possibly bothers me even more.
I can respect the value of having a barbers license two people that want to assure a minimum quality and training in their haircuts. I also find it absurd that as a consenting adult I can't pay someone to cut my hair without a year-long training and apprenticeship program.
Here is apparently what being a pharmacy tech involves in NY: https://ptcbtestprep.com/state-requirements/pharmacy-tech-li...
This may or may not be a good wage by your standards and location. But relative to jobs that have no real qualifications or experience needed, that have been putting up signs for $15/hr recently, it was kind of astounding to me.
It suggests to me they are exploiting people based on the cynical assumption that the qualifications are a sunk cost and replacing the current workforce is not the employers' problem.
Even marginal/trainable skills draw a premium. We have a good friend who owns a seafood restaurant - she’s paying $30/hr to shuck oysters.
On today's show: Why it was illegal to braid hair without a license in Utah. And why hundreds of licensing rules in states all around the country are a disaster for the U.S. economy.
Likewise for a dental hygienist, who is doing things like operating X-Ray equipment and other invasive gadgets. I don't think the solution is to de-regulate this kind of thing.
Dentists are notorious for being greedy idiots. Hygienists make $30-45/hr, and have a portable skill. So unless you’re super flexible, they’ll jump with the market if the dentist tries to cheap out.
They are cleaning your teeth. This means that they need to have understanding of hygiene and sterilization. There are regularly incidents where someone in a dentists office sterilizes something wrong and some disease gets transmitted.
Do NOT assume that nurses, hygienists, etc. understand things even as basic as germ theory and its implications. Do NOT assume that laypeople understand just how bad industrial chemicals can be. etc.
A 2 year degree barely teaches enough for people to be functional in jobs that can affect someone else's health.
The solution to a lack of people for <job> is to PAY MORE MONEY.
Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand?
And there always will be, regardless of how many years of college the staff has.
> Do NOT assume that nurses, hygienists, etc. understand things even as basic as germ theory and its implications. Do NOT assume that laypeople understand just how bad industrial chemicals can be. etc.
If nurses don't understand these things and they have had many years of training, that seems to argue that additional training does not improve outcomes. And for the record, I'm not saying I want Joe Blow to be hired yesterday and start cleaning teeth today. A trade training program is of course necessary to acquire the skills and learn the procedures to perform <skilled job>. But I don't think it's necessary to have college-level germ theory background to understand how to sterilize equipment and why it's important.
> A 2 year degree barely teaches enough for people to be functional in jobs that can affect someone else's health.
I won't disagree there, because I think college is pretty useless these days other than to give you the piece of paper that lets companies easily filter potential employees, with non-college applicants going in the trash.
> The solution to a lack of people for <job> is to PAY MORE MONEY. Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand?
I agree with you that companies have taken advantage of employees for a very long time and am glad that workers are pushing back on low wages and unreasonable employment situations. But if we keep requiring more credentialing at high expense that people simply cannot afford without crippling loans, you can't fix that with higher wages. The result would be that teeth cleaning would become unaffordable to the average person. Oh wait, I know the solution to that: more insurance! (See: medical care)
https://www.mesacc.edu/sites/default/files/pages/academic-de... https://www.mesacc.edu/sites/default/files/pages/academic-de...
Program cost is 2 years and about $20K.
The only difference between this and, say, the electrical apprentice/journeyman/master path is that a company will pay for you starting at the journeyman point. Which is good because you have to do 8000 hours (4 years!) to become a full-fledged journeyman.
So, again, we come back to companies simply aren't paying enough money.
I know several tech companies that fund local community college program scholarships simply to get their output. It's a rounding error on their "community outreach" budget (somthing like $1000 a student for <20 students).
I'm being mildly hyperbolic because I think a lot of people assume it's just watching kids play. It's not. Where do you think fine motor skills, balance, exercise habits, mental health, diet, recognition of emerging health issues comes from?
Do you have any evidence for that assertion? James Heckman spent many years saying that infant and early childhood interventions were far more cost effective than those on later ages but he is no longer willing to defend his earlier position [1].
> I'm being mildly hyperbolic because I think a lot of people assume it's just watching kids play. It's not.
Not people who have children. They’re aware that they demand constant attention.
> Where do you think fine motor skills, balance, exercise habits, mental health, diet, recognition of emerging health issues comes from?
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here but it sounds like you think these can durably be changed by childcare workers in some way. The behaviour genetics evidence is pretty clear that everything you mentioned is highly heritable and the normal range will emerge just fine in almost any non-abusive environment.
I teach children from 3-7 during my time in childcare/kindergarten and having my own children has just reinforced what I thought then. Teachers have very little impact on academic performance and personality but they can make the classroom a better or a worse place to be and help children deal with others in a slightly more productive way. They certainly don’t have any long run impact on fine motor skills or balance.
[1] https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/08/12/heckman-cu...
Well, I'll wear that. I still think early education should be paid better and be trained to recognise development issues and help triage them, and to impart good habits. Can they instill or improve them? Fair to question. At least they can make sure they happen, experientially per child.
I don't think teachers at kindy can make Michaelangelo happen but yes I do think they encourage rich experiences and those help kids build better, stronger pathways in life. If you don't get to play with water and scissors and pencils at home, kindy is where it happens. And learning how to control your temper, and deal with other people.
The persistent biter who'd been brought up by grandparents on the end of a piece of string and the firebug with adhd? Nobody was going to get rid of all of that. But some kids arrive at school unable to even hold a pencil or recognise their name or distinguish numbers from letters and they may wind up inside the normal range but they're getting a harder start.
> Jim Heckman, who is a Nobel prize winner in economics, has talked about how early childhood education and care can both promote equity and efficiency but he is focusing this message on targeting the disadvantaged, not for everyone.
> In fact, in the paper that Mike Kottelenberg and I just had published last year in the Journal of Labour Economics, we actually can explain this heterogeneity because we are finding there are large gains to universal child care for kids in the lower part of the distribution from single parent households, but for most kids in the middle of the distribution from two-parent families, we are getting these negative declines. It’s not that universal childcare is effective or not effective, it’s effective for some, but not for others.
https://www.convivium.ca/articles/daycare-demands-diversity/
Many parents can't afford childcare anymore for their pre-school kids. Their just isn't enough supply, and the supply that is out there is too expensive. Productivity can't be improved given fixed requirements, and people's labor continues to get more expensive.
If we really believe this, then let's dump a bunch of resources at the society level. However, if we insist on keeping pre-school care private, this requirement will only make daycare even more scarce than it is, so that fewer children to receive any kind of formal daycare at all (and parents will drop out of the workplace, leading to further knock on effects).
Economically speaking, we simply can't afford the system we have now, let alone an even more resource-intensive system that we can imagine.
Education is one of the few options less wealthy families have to level the playing field. We cant take this away by letting private organisations poaching the best teachers with huge financial incentives
Teachers have very small effects on student learning within the normal range of competence. We can’t even be sure school effects exist outside teacher and student effects.
> Educational gain will be best predicted by student abilities (up to r = 0.95) and much less by teachers’ skill (up to r = 0.32). I argue that seemingly immutable education will not change until we fully understand students and particularly human intelligence. Over the last 50 years in developed countries, evidence has accumulated that only about 10% of school achievement can be attributed to schools and teachers while the remaining 90% is due to characteristics associated with students. Teachers account for from 1% to 7% of total variance at every level of education. For students, intelligence accounts for much of the 90% of variance associated with learning gains. This evidence is reviewed.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/spanish-journal-of-p...
The problem with these kinds of statistics is that when you are comparing performance relative to the population, low variance in teacher performance leads to the statistical artifact that they have low correlation. This isn't because teachers have little impact, it's because the variance in the quality of teachers is much lower than the variance of other factors.
This shouldn't be surprising given the fact that the average student will go through 30-40 teachers, each having their impact. The variance in performance of any individual teacher will be severely blunted.
This effect is actually fairly widespread in intelligence research, it's why adopted twin IQ studies greatly overstate the inheritance - by putting the cohorts of kids in standardized environments, you inadvertently control for everything but what is inherited, thus increasing the relative variance of the latter.
No, the point of tax is to forceable take money to redistribute in the best interests of society at large. Ideally. In practice it’s so inefficient and the corruption and everything makes it a horrible system.
I like the Swiss Canton system, at least on paper. More distributed government. I want that bastard who’s misusing my tax money to live next door! Centralisation of power is the entropy of democracy.
That's not how (federal) tax works in a fiat money environment (i.e. in Western countries for at least the last 50 years), despite what the textbooks, media and political parties tell us. Taxes (and other measures) are used to control the level of spending in the economy. Government expenditure is funded by money created by government-controlled and / or government-adjacent agencies.
Also, why does there appear to be a correlation between countries that tax more and higher public services (like the Nordic countries vs US). Is it actually just an artificial correlation?
Also, when you say spending, is this gov spending or private spending? Obviously if my tax goes up, I’m spending less. Sorry for all the Q’s, genuinely curious.
Private spending, though the theory is coupled with the idea that government spending should increase to take up the slack when private spending declines.
On a side topic, is there much hope for devolution of power in our current political systems in the West in your opinion? I’m Australian, but would be interested in your take on any western country.
Money creation is central to the concept, and I don't believe there is currently an advanced economy where money creation is devolved to the state level.
Absolutely.
I understand the arguments re: taxing the middle / upper middle class to pay for hospitals, police etc; everyone benefits from these services, including those carrying the majority of the tax burden. But you want to tax them for education, and not give them any of the benefit, because they choose to pay extra to go private?
but they can! they can enroll in the public system. They would have a choice. Nobody is forcing the private system onto them in this scenario.
> because they choose to pay extra to go private?
yes, this is what it _should_ mean to go private.
1. Graduate from a 1500-Hour Rhode Island Barber Training Program
2. Submit a Rhode Island Barber License Application
3. Pass the Rhode Island Written and Practical Licensing Exams
https://www.barber-license.com/rhode-island/
Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31765644
"this behaviour seems indicative of abuse… welp I better contact authorities!"
And many other examples that you will disregard because you've already decided that childcare is not a real job, unlike YOUR job, which is important and serious.
You absolutely do not need a college degree, or lessons on pedagogy, to understand that children are immature or what abuse indicators are. The former is intuitively understood by pretty much everyone, especially people interested in childcare, and the latter can be covered in on the job training.
I'd like to return to my original question though - any evidence that childcare is improved by a college degree? Anyone could come up with things you'd learn in college that might make you better at childcare - but that's not the same thing as evidence.
Not everybody is as lucky as you, apparently born with infused knowledge :)
> Anyone could come up with things you'd learn in college that might make you better at childcare - but that's not the same thing as evidence.
Ah, you redefine "evidence" to be "something that by definition I will reject".
Ok I have no evidence then :)
I define "evidence" in the usual way which excludes baseless speculation. As easily as you can imagine some fact that one might learn in college would be useful to a childcare worker, I can imagine that it would not be or that it would be learned elsewhere.
Certain professions have less leeway for mistakes than others.
For example a surgeon vs a musician; or a software developer for phone apps vs a software developer for fly-by-wire components.
> That’s garbage
It isn't, and you being rude will not make my ideas any less valid.
Your idea is invalid regardless of me being "rude". People have been watching and raising kids virtually forever without degrees. I was responding to your careless lack of need for evidence. The burden of proof is on those who want to demand such credentials.
I don't know if recognising the signs of abuse requires a college degree. Seems more like a certification sort of thing.
That's an interesting supposition that leads me to believe the author has no idea what child care workers are being paid, college educated or not.
I would like to live in a world where the opposite is true. How can we legislate that?
Meanwhile, an important piece of career advice for marketers, bankers, and other people who think of themselves as commanding high leverage is this: Don't mistake the value of the seat you're in as being your value. The number of clients who can put a marketer in a seat where 5% of a skills-difference is an amount of money on the same order of magnitude as the marketer's take-home pay is extremely small relative to the number of marketers who want that job. Meanwhile there are tons of people hiring doctors, plumbers, and farriers who care a great deal about a 5% skills-difference, and many of them have money to pay for it. That gives doctors, plumbers, and farriers vastly superior bargaining power when compared to marketers, which, in turn, means that they get to extract a higher share of what they're worth to the client as take-home pay.
Government daycare is mostly free of course.
Unfortunately local politicians do not understand the importance of pre-school academic education and this standard is never fully executed anywhere.
People get degrees for leverage in wage negotiation, and to further their career. Advising against is anti-worker, imo.
The real crime is unattainable education.
If the content is so important have a certification exam. That fulfills the purpose of driving down supply of workers so they get paid more. Same as requiring a degree but without giving money to universities. Obviously this is bad for those who want to buy childcare, just like the degree requirement.
This is such an USA point of view… University is free here.
Not really, you can get loans with very low interest rates and you don't have to pay them back until you make a high enough salary.
But yeah it's not perfect (still better than the USA system).
I'd rather leave my kids to people that are educated rather than to people who are improvising and will never become experienced because they will change jobs ASAP because they aren't paid enough.
I don't see a conflict between having a decent salary and not having a university education. I wrote a paper at university showing that a majority of all university degrees in my country doesn't pay itself. You miss out on too much money and experience during the years you are studying. There are exceptions, naturally, but I don't believe everyone should need a university degree.
> Requiring degrees is anti-worker because it places a cost on them.
Education being paid from taxes means the price is not paid by worker. I am ok paying tax and education being paid from the tax. Not everyone is full on allergic to the word tax.
Somehow the taxes pay for it thing never comes up with these.
This is the kind of thing one can learn as an elective during high school and graduate with an additional certificate.
Maybe one or 2 years of vocational school.