American Airlines jet and shuttle bus collide on taxiway | Hacker News Reader

American Airlines jet and shuttle bus collide on taxiway

abc7.com

41 pointsgeorgecmu46 comments

This is a failure to yield by a bus driver, not some systemic failure of industralized society. Hard to really derive any insight from this besides maybe requiring better training for ancillary airport ground crew.

You could say that about anything. It's "just" this or that. However, the fact that the driver doesn't have the requisite training is a systematic failure.

We've had, what, at least three very serious near misses of airplanes colliding with something on the runway in the last month?

Where is the third? This was a tow vehicle on a taxiway.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/15/1149330980/jfk-delta-american...

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/04/1154549311/near-collision-fed...

And this one.

> airplanes colliding with something on the runway

> this one

Nope. This was a bus hitting a tow vehicle on a taxiway.

Then expand my original comment to "runway or taxiway".

> a tug driver was taken to a hospital in moderate condition, the bus driver and two passengers were transported in fair condition

I can't tell the difference between moderate and fair condition

There isn't a uniform defintion of medical state, but fair typically means "conscious, no major instability" so e.g. broken leg, whiplash, lacerations from a fall

Serious typically means "unconscious and/ or unstable, but without other negative factors" (like other existing conditions, age, etc)

Moderate typically means "was serious but is recovering" e.g. was knocked out but came to, or had a seizure but is now stable.

What exactly is going on at Air Traffic Control? So many near misses and collisions lately.

The plane was being towed, so it sounds like they weren't involved.

ATC still has control over the planes though, They'll give push back clearance. But not over other ground traffic as far as I know. They're supposed to watch out.

Also, NOTAM outage[1]

[1] https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-notam-statement

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34337158

It says the plane was being towed at the time, so ATC may not have been involved.

If it’s on a taxiway (as reported, but aviation reporting is notoriously sloppy with terminology) ATC was likely involved.

If it was on a ramp or other non-movement area (where ATC is not in control), they would not be involved.

ATC has, at least in Germany, nothing to do with ground traffic. While working at the Airport, I was allowed to drive there. So it basically your, as driver, responsibility to look out for priority traffic: everything with a red light (including aircrft taxiing or being towed), blue light (fire brigade, who also has the option for red, or police) followed by yellow. So, without having the article, the bis drover just did see the plane. And don't laugh, thay actually can happen!

At large fields in Germany, ATC has nothing to do with the taxiways?

In the US, we have ATC "ground control" at many airports, which controls the "movement areas" (taxiways), and ATC "tower" which controls the runways. At smaller fields or lighter traffic times, the ground and tower positions might be staffed by a single person. At larger fields, they may have multiple tower or ground positions.

Non-movement areas include the parking areas, ramps, maintenance aprons, etc, which are not controlled by ATC.

Yep, in Germany the Tower folks are not the ATC folks. The latter take over at the runway. And neither controls ground traffic by other ground vehicles, e.g. busses, trucks, cars... Tjose have to respect traffic rules, from right of passage to traffic lights, are bound to certain market "roads" and so on.

Lot of green people in aviation right now, I imagine combined with labor shortage and the ceaseless greed of corporations pushing everyone harder anyway.

That's what happens when you get -10 points for answering yes to "did you study science or math in college?", for your ATC test.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/06/27/the-disastrous-initia...

https://mslegal.org/2019/02/fight-escalates-over-race-based-...

> The questionnaire gives more points to an applicant who answers that he has not been employed in the previous three years than it does to an applicant who answers that he has been a pilot or is a veteran with an air traffic control-related military background.

That's certainly counterintuitive.

It has been 14 years tomorrow since the last catastrophic incident (Colgan Air Flight 3407) from a major US airline.

I am worried people are starting to get sloppy.

There's a big changing of the guard in aviation right now. Fifteen years ago, it was nigh impossible to get an airline job, so the pipeline dried up. And now they are scrambling for anyone they can get as COVID and retirements took their toll.

The pilot would have had nothing to do with this as they're facing the other way, the plane is controlled by the tug during pushback.

It was, for all practical purposes, a simple traffic accident. E.g. if you crash into a semi truck because you missed it. This stuff also happens on airports, ATC had nothing to do with it. It can be as simple as the bus driver not stopping to let the pushed plane pass.

It's an empty plane being towed to a parking area, I don't think the term pusback applies here...

Oh ok sorry. I didn't notice that part, apologies. In that case indeed I'm not sure if ATC would even be involved. Or pilots, for that matter.

Institutions aren’t allowed to have rigorous standards anymore since those standards always end up excluding what we call “oppressed groups”. It’s too expensive to train said groups because the problem starts with the socioeconomic status of their parents. So instead, we lower the standards.

This is happening across society and I believe it’s accelerating as we create more and more abundance. More abundance means we can “afford” to lower standards and give everyone more. The costs are hard to calculate for the decision makers of our society but they’re not hard to foresee if you’re skeptical enough.

> The costs are hard to calculate

Costs are exposed through life-threatening accidents. Even FAA new plane certifications are outsourced to the plane makers (737MAX).

> for the decision makers of our society

Individuals have refused to hold elected politicians accountable. We generally vote for the dime worth of difference between the two major parties. Voters don't seem to care.

Individual consumers could boycott and never set foot in a 737MAX until it goes through the FAA type certification process. I boycott that jet. Apparently few take that personal action.

> I boycott that jet. Apparently few take that personal action.

I do as well. If Southwest ever switches the plane on me, I will be very upset.

Meta-commentary: it's interesting that your anti-woke stance (yeah that's what it is despite your attempts to hide it in your first paragraph) is causing tunnel vision in your judgement of things happening. "Hmm, a crash involving a plane, must be because all the wokism that leads to lower standards!".

I’m not trying to hide it! Why would I be woke?

Is it a trend, or is it reporting? Shark attacks, and all of that.

I follow a YouTube channel (VASAviation) which posts notable ATC recordings. JFK, AUS, and this collision are unusual in a short period of time. In 2017 there was a similar "trend" including two Air Canada incidents at SFO, which seemed like a lot for one airline and one airport? Most likely these are uncommon but any commonality or closeness in that randomness seems like cause for a person to change their perception of how likely it is.

Makes sense. And I hasten to add I did not intend my question to shoot down the idea. There could indeed be a trend, but I would want more than a few headlines to establish that.

Post story of minor mishap on HN, number in top right get bigger, monkey brain feel good.

That is to say, unless somebody can provide numbers indicating these mishaps are more common I'm going to chalk it up to increased interest in the subject leading to more visibility (which itself is a positive feedback loop).

Mismanagement and lack of accountability by firing people, and safetyism that is dangerous.

For purpose of communication, FAA is embedded with NORAD. In this example from 2022, NORAD said no worries about a missile test 1/2 way around world. FAA then started a USA mainland ground stop because safetyism.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/11/business/faa-ground-stop-nora...

It's time to set priorities and clean up those who can't perform.

This is happening like every other week now. What is going on?

Not really. The thing the other week was a runway incursion during an active takeoff. Basically what caused Tenerife, still the worst aviation accident in history.

This is a collision of a bus with an empty towed aircraft. Not nearly the same potential for mass deaths.

There were two on-runway near accidents recently, before this one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34756174

Well, there's always some risk associated with traveling in these under developed countries.

> Well, there's always some risk associated with traveling in these under developed countries.

I know this is tongue in cheek but it really appears that America is unable to keep up with modern life. Everything is clunky. Everything is backlogged. Everything is expensive. Everyone is burned out. Far too many things in America can destroy an individual's life.

I genuinely don't know how America is going to deal with a stagnant/declining labor force. This society is unmaintainable.

I think they think with robots

I think America is keeping up just fine… but skipping to the end, America can handle the declining labor force (and other issues) with immigration. American life is built like an ponzi scheme, where the next generation pays for the prior, and that’s when the next big immigrant wave will arrive. America has been pretty successful with immigration in the past, and it’s still a pretty high quality of life compared to many countries, so people would still move here.

Many other countries often cited as having a good quality of life aren’t exactly welcoming outsiders, and despite what Americans think about america’s racism or views of immigrants, many other nations are worse.

America made the mistake of not doubling H1b quotas and simplifying the process to citizenship. I know so many immigrants who are smart and successful that plan to return home. That’s a big mistake to not entice them to stay, both because America needs the tax base and because they make America better.

America can handle a declining labor force with immigration - if congress fixes it. As it stands, America is literally automatically deporting skilled workers just because USCIS cannot process green cards fast enough (due to congressional limits).

We literally had the workers, skilled, law-abiding, friendly and educated. And yet, America just throws them away. How does America expect to remain competitive?

I worry about this as well. It is just like you said. No one has any time for anyone anymore, and it seems that just the bare minimum gets done. When someone actually slows down and helps you with something, it almost feels surreal.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com