Mastodon.lol will shut down on May 9, 2023
mastodon.lol
mastodon.lol
Context seems related to the new Harry Potter game: https://mastodon.lol/@nathan/109836004635134601
> We're not banning people for buying a video game. Express your displeasure to them if you so wish, but that alone doesn't require our attention.
> Related, please don't post spoilers just to spite people. You can justify it to yourself however you like, but you're shouting into a crowd here. Not every HP fan knows J.K. Rowling is a piece of shit, and ruining the days of random bystanders ain't the way to go.
> It will cause problems for myself and .lol in general if it continues. Thanks.
How many of them know anything about JK Rowling's personal life beyond "I think she's blonde and she wrote the HP books"?
- JK Rowling is a tervert(!) and I must tell the world.
- Nobody is allowed to enjoy anything that JK Rowling is indirectly involved with.
- This will get me / my server banned from most of the world because nobody cares.
And since there's no way to compromise, they'll sort by priority and whatever is the most important wins.
It's a hard place to be in as a server admin. You can't really ban these folks or you'll be targeted next, and they are part of the community. If you let them do their thing, other servers will nuke you just to get rid of them.
Will Mastodon get shadow banning?
Is this a community run server or it's this guy/gal's server, and through acquaintances this vocal group ended up there?
That's the tricky part, if you ban people that are considered part of your community albeit 'difficult', you'll quickly lose support of the less extreme members, because you're banning people who aren't that far away from them. It affects all communities where the vast majority of members are very similar in their core values and beliefs, and those are self-reinforcing by keeping/driving out people that are too different from them.
In this specific case it wouldn't have been an issue at all if there hadn't been other servers being involved. Basically everyone on this server agrees that Harry Potter is Mein Kampf (slightly exaggerated), they would've all said that they hate the game and how JK Rowling is genociding trans kids and would've mocked the normies that don't get it, but without interacting with those normies (who are on different servers) there wouldn't have been a problem.
I found a summary thread from @jeanburgess@mastodon.lol which broadly agrees with this: https://mastodon.lol/@jeanburgess/109837309981257160 (https://archive.ph/GZtld)
Copying/pasting below for when the instance is gone and the link is unreadable. Sorry for huge.
============================
“So my [@jeanburgess] rough summary of what has gone on at mastodon.lol:
1. The instance dates back to 'early Mastodon', started by a guy known only as Nathan to create an inclusive space for queer and trans folks away from the Twitter cesspit.
2. it has always been a one-man band, with very hardline mod & #fediblock rules against Nazis, TERFs, sexual exploitation, etc., but permissive in terms of (CWed) NSFW content, is now quite popular with all kinds of geeky queers, trans & stans. And generally lovely!
3. for several months there have been tensions and politics around content moderation, as well as clear signs of admin overload and burnout, not helped by said 'one-man band' approach. But lots of good support, patreon $ etc etc and it stayed up despite huge influx of new users.
4. Fast forward to...like, yesterday? as I understand it some ppl wanted anyone posting +vely re new JKR franchise game to get booted out? There was conflict, admin felt harassed, I think it was the last straw...
5. and @nathan announced the instance will be closing in May - and no way is it being handed over to new "owners" (citing privacy concerns wrt the database of users).
6. more conflict ensued, with some posts getting pretty nasty, including going very close to calling the admin a Nazi sympathiser (!! not cool), In turn he instructed some such people to "kill [themselves]" (!! very not cool). The latest post says we "won't be hearing from him again". I'm obviously very concerned for his wellbeing. n/n, lost count sorry, The End for now. Total and quite sudden meltdown, basically. ((and hey, maybe governance, while not punk, is important actually))”
But like you said, it's likely a community that doesn't want to moderate itself in these topics.
The cited "terminally online" messages are very much the smoking gun for this argument, but ... where's the actual abuse that happens on other/various servers?
That's where I would draw the line. If someone says very hurtful things and use the same domain as me, I think it makes sense to try to ask them to reconsider, and if there's no positive change, then act.
With regards to the game itself, it is impossible to find any objective information about gameplay or performance online, and all the usual tech publications, including gaming subreddits and forums are either boycotting it or published scathing non-reviews. Any over what?! Looking at the player stats on Steam, the game is enjoying a massive popularity. I think it might be the first time a media product was too big for the outrage crowd to cancel
How's anyone supposed to take you seriously if you perceive an existential threat from a children's author expressing their opinion? One comment I saw claimed that she was literally killing them. I mean...
https://infosec.exchange has ~50K users, interesting threads (this one was on HN recently https://infosec.exchange/@SecurityWriter/109777576538835360 )
But the preexisting fediverse culture is much more insular thanks to the transitive badness logic many servers operate on "your server let's its users talk to the bad people so we'll block your server and all its users". So servers get blocked if they let their users say positive things about cops, Rowling, investment, white people using the term thicc etc.
This had already led to fediverse being really three universes, which I'll call Leftiverse, Japaniverse and Gabiverse. The majority joined the Leftiverse because they're less objectional than the Gab people but this has led to a culture war which I think is ultimately going to end up with the mainstream fediverse splitting into the original Leftiverse and a more mainstream Centriverse.
[1] https://fedi.tips/transferring-your-mastodon-account-to-anot...
As for migrating followers, I hear that it's glitchy, people typically lose a portion of their followers when migrating.
* What tools | methods exist to fetch total members at Mastodon.lol on a daily basis.
* Ditto for individual names and their new migrated names.
Are any HN users planning to grab data and graph present the diaspora to other instances | falling out of sight?
- The "account" primitive is just a key pair, but you can layer more auth requirements on top of that.
- All messages are always signed by your key pair end to end.
- Server admin can't read your DMs or edit your messages. The worst they can do is see public posts or delete events.
- You can move your messages between servers with via piped CLI commands.
echo '["REQ", "my_mirror_request_id", {"pubkey": "mynpubkey"}]' | websocat -n wss://source | jq -c '[.[0,2]]' -M | websocat wss://destination
Maybe nostr is not "the thing" but it's better than the mastodon paradigm.
i believe in "can but won't fork" mentality is better than this.
- The "account" primitive is just a key pair, but you can layer more auth requirements on top of that.
- All messages are always signed by your key pair end to end.
- Server admin can't read your DMs or edit your messages. The worst they can do is see public posts or delete events.
- You can move your messages between servers with via piped CLI commands.
My point is that key pairs and signed posts is a good primitive if things are to be re homed and retransmitted.
I had to migrate a couple weeks ago because my old instance broke for 6 days while the administrator was on vacation and incommunicado, with no backup admins. https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/mastodon2.html
Interesting question. Would it be?
If I now move to mastodon.example.com and somehow migrate my messages, that server's admin would be able to read them, but you never consented to them having access to (part of) your private messages.
It's similar to email, but we tend to put high requirements on running an email server (concerning data / privacy). I have no idea how that works out on Mastodon, whether it's closer to email or closer to Twitter DMs. E2E messages would probably be best, but then you make it harder for yourself to combat spam and harassment, I assume.
> If I now move to mastodon.example.com and somehow migrate my messages, that server's admin would be able to read them, but you never consented to them having access to (part of) your private messages.
Why do you think there's consent in the first case but not the second case? You voluntarily choose your new instance just as much as you did your old instance.
I choose it, but you didn't, and if I migrate private messages exchanged between us, that would affect your personal information.
Just migrating my public posts will not be an issue. I don't know if private messages would be. §20 states in 4 "The right referred to in paragraph 1 shall not adversely affect the rights and freedoms of others."
Anyway, the ability to import public posts would be a big improvement.
Article 20, Section 1 states:
The data subject shall have the right to receive the personal data concerning him or her, which he or she has provided to a controller, in a structured, commonly used and machine-readable format and have the right to transmit those data to another controller without hindrance from the controller to which the personal data have been provided[...]
Separately, Article 2 states:
In exercising his or her right to data portability pursuant to paragraph 1, the data subject shall have the right to have the personal data transmitted directly from one controller to another, where technically feasible.
This part specifically mentions the controller you originally gave data to, but says nothing about whom you now want to import it to:
> without hindrance from the controller to which the personal data have been provided
It's implied that the importing side will make this work on their own since they only benefit from allowing data imports to onboard new customers while the exporter is losing their customer.
> For especially severe violations, listed in Art. 83(5) GDPR, the fine framework can be up to 20 million euros, or in the case of an undertaking, up to 4 % of their total global turnover of the preceding fiscal year, whichever is higher.
> “the concept of an undertaking encompasses every entity engaged in an economic activity, regardless of the legal status of the entity or the way in which it is financed”
These services have no economic activity whatsoever, or if they do it's in the forms of donations to keep the lights on. Who do you propose that the GDPR hammer strikes?
This is an interesting intersection of services that aren’t necessarily a business. A lot of modern privacy laws are built around the idea that you’re making money from people, and stand to lose that income. I’m not sure that GDPR offers anything different.
It does not seem to make any difference whether the service is engaged in commercial or professional services.
“Griffindor scarf is a hate symbol.”
[1] My understanding is that the alleged bigotry is said to be anti-semitism
They've build tools to find out who plays/streams this game and then spam the chat. They bully people to unfollow said players. They post game spoilers everywhere on social media. They report Mastodon users playing the game, demanding a ban. And when the mod does not comply, they circle and attack the mod. The mod...whom specifically managed a LGBTQ+ instance.
The game is now antisemitic too, because it contains some ancient horn artifact?
There is no end to their sadism and pettiness. And when the damage is done, they'll high five each other and consider it another win for the humanitarian cause.
They're evil and disturbed.
I noticed this immediately on several Twitter alts I explored and immediately stopped using them. They were massive echo chambers and circle jerks. Some of them would even turn on each other and implode over incredibly minor things.
I remember message boards imploding in the early 2000s, but that usually took years, massive circles of people leaving, and changing of hands to achieve...this was like that on a speed run; and they mostly all went back to Twitter.
At times it comes across as peaceful, but in a very creepy way. 100% ideological consistency where the ideology is nothing of substance, just unhinged online-only performative virtue signaling. Every once in a while a reply gives a minor pushback after which the account is immediately circled and stomped on.
It’s quite possible to join a server that focuses on a specific hobby and generally avoid any of that horribleness.
Are you saying that the average user of any Mastodon server is “evil and disturbed?”
It’s kind of like Reddit. There’s all kinds of slimy subreddits, but I just don’t join those and I never see their content or discourse.
It's not true for Twitter, which uses it's algorithm to force high-engagement outrage into your feed
That’s what makes mastodon so insidious. If you (as a mod) allow anything that other instances disapprove of, you and your site is excluded.
(Edit: I’m not saying there aren’t toxic people on Mastodon, because obviously they’re going to be on any large site. I’m disagreeing that it’s worse than Twitter. It’s all about who you interact with.)
No. The game is accused of being antisemitic because it portrays goblins with antisemitic stereotypes - greedy, gold-hoarding, hook-nosed bankers and money-lenders.
Although this isn't entirely exclusive to JKR, as Tolkein had similar issues with his original portrayal of dwarves (which he later tried to rectify,) and this sort of portrayal goes far back in folklore and was purposely rooted in antisemitism. Given JKR's other views and her recent open hostility towards what you would consider "the woke", people aren't willing to assume she was simply naive.
If you're interested in the context surrounding this controversy here are some sources. A google search can uncover more.
[0]https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2022/01/05/the-ha...
[1]https://www.jta.org/2023/02/10/culture/are-the-goblins-in-th...
I don't believe anyone actually thinks this. I do believe that people are reaching for any reason to try to disparage the game because they don't like JKR.
Maybe, just maybe, the people complaining about the game are unhinged.
They aren't, but the vibe of this thread already makes it obvious that argument to that end would be fruitless.
Just stop acknowledging that the stereotype is in any way real. Treat it like a child calling you poopiface(which is their best attempt at hurting you btw).
That is the ONLY way to beat racism. Even then, racists will be around being racist. The difference is that everyone will treat their opinion the same way they treat the child calling them poopiface.
What happens next? The impact of racism is greatly lessened. That is the best case scenario because the only other method involves slavery and reeducation camps. People still murder right?
We all agree that is wrong and look at where that gets us. The people who choose to not agree end up where? Right, slavery and reeducation in a camp.
Do you really think tales of dwarfs and goblins didn't exist before people cared about races so much?
I'm just baffled by the reaching here.
Let people play a video game.
I would say y'all comparing jews with goblins are the racists.
>worse, was the Star of David pattern, clearly visible on the floor of Gringotts Bank (this was a feature of the filming location, London’s High Commission of Australia, and did not appear in subsequent films)
The star is, specifically, the Commonwealth Star <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Star>. Quite understandably a feature of Australia House, and 100% nothing at all to do with Judaism.
"worse", indeed.
I wouldn't say evil, but reading through the comments makes it clear a lot of these people need therapy.
Surprisingly, it reminded me a lot of right wingers dressed up in body armor with a rifle that couldn't run a mile to save their life (or the life of the man next to them). Theres a performative element to both; They're LARPing, trying to regain a sense of control and meaning.
Another such example: /u/LibraryLass just caused a colossal mess in /r/asksciencefiction <https://np.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/10wzlb6/dram...> over Hogwarts Legacy. Not the first time the user has caused such online commotion, a while back receiving a ban from rpg.net. The mods removed the ban after a heartfelt plea ... and quickly regretted it <https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/librarylass-receives...>. I wrote on Reddit:
>Reading that appeal by LibraryLass at the bottom of the thread, the one that won the unban broke my heart.
>That plea for unbanning sounds like LibraryLass basically made rpg.net the center of living, and could not stand any more not being able to participate. LibraryLass's former mod colleagues took pity and revoked the ban despite having concerns about what might happen ... and then LibraryLass, I guess, promptly broke the conditions of said unbanning.
>LibraryLass needs help. I hope the recent Reddit drama will cause said person to seek out said help, but I doubt it based on the parting comments I've read through unddit.
It is really amusing to watch this when the world just ignores them and continues to play the Harry Potter wizard video game as usual and are talking about it on Twitter.
At the end of the day, there is only a few people that are winning and JK Rowling is one of them, despite not even being directly involved with the game and will earn millions out of it regardless with the complainers wasting their time and winning nothing.
This Mastodon instance lives up to it's domain really well: mastodon.lol
This is happening elsewhere, too?!? Good grief!
Is someone finding that annoying or distasteful, or thinking "wow, they have a lot of time on their hands" valid reasoning to calling them "evil and disturbed", or are people just not wanting to put the equal amount of effort to resisting/subverting that?
Mastodon.lol looks to have been around 67k up until recently [2] (which gives an exponent of about 2.2).
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34713553
[1] https://maximumeffort.substack.com/p/scaling-problems-in-soc...
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20221122205835/https://mastodon....
75k as of November last year when registration was closed: https://mastodon.lol/@nathan/109374989892780399 (https://archive.ph/IXKx3)
12th largest instance listed on https://instances.social/list/advanced#lang=&allowed=&prohib...
Frankly this seems to be manufactured outrage: do these people have nothing better to do with their time?
A lot of people are trying to make this about the Harry Potter game, but it really isn't. Any conflict being aimed at him would have put him over the edge, it just happened to be this.
He has always tried to protect the majority of users over what any subgroup wants. He was pretty harsh as a moderator, but genuinely wanted to do the best he could.
This isn't a trans thing or a Nazi thing, this is just about burnout.
Nathan made some bad choices and said some things he really shouldn't have. He should have found a way to bring more moderators on, but he didn't. He tried to do everything on his own and it broke him.
Nathan isn't a bad person, he just got pushed too far and he snapped.
Just another Mastodon instance destroying itself, when JK Rowling isn't even involved in the game and still makes millions out of it. All of this outrage is just a leaf falling out a tree.
Dear, Oh dear.
1. Some HP video game is release;
2. Users who bought it mentioned it in mastodon.lol;
3. Other users want to ban them because...JK Rowling is...a Nazi(?);
4. Other users posted spoilers because...JK Rowling bad and anyone who does not know that deserves getting their day ruined(?);
5. Mastodon.lol owner chide these other users and gets harassed as a result;
6. Mastodon.lol owner decides to shut down site;
Is mastodon.lol really just a toddlers’ playground rather than a town hall?
The only feasible end result is that everyone picks one large corporate server or hosts their own. Like how email works.